Date   

Re: Cement in bags, was RE: Malt Shipments

RICH CHAPIN
 

Schuyler is right. Most people have now clue that cement is just  an ingredient of concrete, and give a “look’ when you point that out.

 

1 bag of cement = 1 cubic foot of cement = 94 lbs

 

Atlas cement, Northampton PA produced all the cement for the Panama Canal. All that cement was shipped in cotton sacks, and those sacks were returned to Atlas to be refilled. Lehigh Valley and Lehigh and New England [hence CRRNJ]served Atlas. {BTW; the Atlas Museum is very interesting]

 

4.5 million cubic yards of cement were used for the canal; that is a lot of boxcars!!!

 

Rich Chapin

 


Re: Malt Shipments

earlyrail
 

My experience (slim and dated though it is) tells me that malt is much less durable than the unmalted barley. I know that at least in San Francisco the barley came to one or more commercial malt houses[0] (either independent of or internal to the breweries or distilleries) for malting right before delivery to the target businesses for making wort, fermenting, and the rest of the post-processing. If I were to model the business before the days of covered hoppers for grain, I'd show the barley at a malt house in bags and then drays[1] carrying the malt syrup in something like large carboys across town to a customer


All malt houses that I know of provided dry malted barley.
None that I know off shipped liquid across town.

Now someone did process the malted barley and made malt syrup and dried malt.
During prohibition some of this was done by Pabst.

Howard Garner


Re: Malt Shipments

Nolan Hinshaw
 

On May 25, 2015, at 10:19 AM, thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC] wrote:

Before covered hopper cars, was malt shipped in bulk in boxcars, sacked in boxcars or both?
My experience (slim and dated though it is) tells me that malt is much less durable than the unmalted barley. I know that at least in San Francisco the barley came to one or more commercial malt houses[0] (either independent of or internal to the breweries or distilleries) for malting right before delivery to the target businesses for making wort, fermenting, and the rest of the post-processing. If I were to model the business before the days of covered hoppers for grain, I'd show the barley at a malt house in bags and then drays[1] carrying the malt syrup in something like large carboys across town to a customer

[0] Bauer-Schweizer, which may have been the last independent malt house in San Francisco, on Francisco street in North Beach, took its last delivery of barley some time in the early 1970s. In one form or another the business had roots back into the second half of the 1800s or the very early 1900s.

[1] team-drawn, natch -- Percherons, mules, oxen, even maybe a brace of stegosaurs
--
"Not only is it not right, it's not even wrong!"
From Wolfgang Pauli, perpetrator of the Pauli Exclusion Principle


Re: Malt Shipments

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Tony and Friends,

Is there evidence that large breweries did their own malting on site? If that was the case, then we should be talking about bulk grain, mostly barley.

Your comment about converted boxcars for bulk products reminds me of the two WP Bulk Sugar boxcars that were converted to covered hoppers 14601-14602 (with maple plywood slope sheets!). IIRC, these cars were leased to the SP and operated for Holly Sugar. Does anyone know if this might have been the Dyer/Santa Ana plant?

Up into the 1960s the WP also operated some of their 1916 Pullman single-sheathed boxcars as series 26001 in plaster service out of Gerlach, Nevada. The cars had movable bulkheads, and a few were equipped with roof hatches.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 5/25/15 4:44 PM, Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] wrote:

 
Tim O'Connor wrote:

 

Bulk materials were also shipped in barrels -- wood, metal or paper.


    Good point, Tim. Fiber drums in particular were an important item of commerce in those days.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Cement in bags, was RE: Malt Shipments

Tony Thompson
 

Steve Lucas wrote:

 

Um, Tony--

That deck would be a "wood" deck, not a "wooden" deck--wouldn't it??  

    My dictionary, admittedly American, defines "wooden" as meaning "made of or consisting of wood."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Cement in bags, was RE: Malt Shipments

midrly
 

Um, Tony--

That deck would be a "wood" deck, not a "wooden" deck--wouldn't it??  

(The use of the words "would, wood, wooden, wouldn't" were noticed after I wrote this.   :)


Steve Lucas.


Re: Malt Shipments

earlyrail
 


Mon May 25, 2015 10:19 am (PDT) . Posted by:
thecitrusbelt
Before covered hopper cars, was malt shipped in bulk in boxcars, sacked in boxcars or both?


Thanks.


Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Both is the correct answer.
Sometimes in the same car!

Just checked a couple billheads on ebay.

1939 from Froedtert Grain & Malting in Milwaukee on Nov 1
One car 1950 bushels Standard Malt plus include 550 bushels of Karmal Malt is bags.

A 1901 Shipment from Calument Malting to Keystone brewery was 660 bags of malt. weight 59100 lbs

Howard Garner


Re: Malt Shipments

Edward
 

Having grown up with the family business through the 1940s and 50s (a retail bakery), our flour (all types), granulated sugar and salt were shipped in fabric bags, up to about 1950-51.

Then came a transition to brown Kraft paper bags, having several layers of paper for strength.  Everything was in 100 lb sacks except for salt. It came  in 80 lb sacks.  The sack was smaller, but it sure felt like it was a lot heavier than 80 lbs!  We also got molasses and non-diastatic malt (in syrup form). Both came in very heavy, 55 gallon steel drums.

In relaying all this, these were shipped by rail in box cars. I built an O scale model of  a 40' Lehigh Valley double-sheathed, left opening door box car. LV employed many of them in the bagged flour trade out of Buffalo NY.
A load of 800 100 lb sacks of flour was a full 40 ton load. Will try to post a photo or two  of it.

Box cars were still used for bagged flour shipment into the mid-1970s. I recall helping unload a box car of bagged flour a bakery in State College PA. It took many shuttle runs with bakery's panel van to move all 50 tons of it to their shop, about a ton at a time.

The move to covered hoppers for bulk flour shipments in the 1950s to 60s did not end the shipping of flour, sugar, etc. in 100 lb sacks. They more often went by truck, instead of by rail as time passed on.

Ed Bommer


Re: Q FM-14 hand brake gear

genegreen1942@...
 

Eric, 
When was this flat car built?  Does it pre-date most geared, horizontal wheel hand brakes?  
Do you know which hand brake was applied to this flat car?  Perhaps that information can be found on an equipment diagram or in builder's specs. 
I'm not really familiar with CB&Q resources so I don't know what to suggest.
Do you have a photo that shows the hand brake that you could send me at genegreen1942 at yahoo dot com?  Perhaps I can ID the hand brake you need.
I have quite a few horizontal wheel hand brakes in the back yard.  I may have what you need in terms of information or drawings and, if I have the right brake here, can supply photos, too.
Only two model manufacturers have inquired of me about horizontal wheel hand brakes and those were both for tank car models, one now available and one not yet available.  Tank car hand brakes and flat car hand brakes are not the same plus there were only two manufacturers of the former and several of the latter.
The model world needs horizontal wheel hand brakes in every scale.  I suspect two things have inhibited model manufacturers from including horizontal wheel hand brakes.  I am referring here to the mechanism and not the hand wheel . . . oops!  brake wheel.  First, the hand brakes on tank cars and flat cars are relatively less visible than on house cars.  Second there were sometimes wide variations in the mounting methods used to secure hand brake mechanisms to flat cars.   


Re: Cement in bags, was RE: Malt Shipments

Clark Propst
 

Cement was originally shipped in barrels. Many cement company’s logos were round so they could be stamped on the top of the barrel. Cement was also sold by the barrel well after they were replaced by sacks, first cloth, then paper. Regular cement went/is in 94 lb. bags. Four bags equal one barrel.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: slow day ... let's talk about hand brakes

genegreen1942@...
 

I think Jack, and Dennis before him, are correct.   I would not advise creating a hand brake model from a patent drawing.  While I have only looked at 729 patents, all of which I have on file here, I would say that only a few resemble hand brakes actually produced and used.
Gene Green


---In STMFC@..., <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote :

I doubt this is a Miner product.  Note that the patent is assigned to Ellcon-National, who produced brake products under the "Peacock" trade name.  

Unfortunately, the housing shown in the patent doesn't match any of the Peacock hand brakes that I can find in 1960s Cycs, though it's obviously similar in general shape and outline to, for example, Peacock Model 1600. The 1600 does function in the manner described in the patent.

I'd remind y'all of Dennis's caveat about basing a model on a patent drawing, even if the patent drawings seem to be scale drawings.  Unless you can confirm with photos and/or other evidence that the patented device was actually produced, and made in the same form as depicted in the patent, you're at serious risk of creating a bogus model.

I guess it's my role in this thread to  be disagreeing, though hopefully not disagreeable.  

Jack Mullen


Re: Malt Shipments

Douglas Harding
 

Malt is made by germinating grain, and would be shipped like other grains. Bulk or bagged. Today it appears 50lbs is the norm for bagged malt.

 

Cement (powder) was shipped in barrels, sacks/bags or bulk.

A bag of cement weights 94lbs. The bag is sized to hold one cubic foot of cement, and 94lbs is simply what one cubic foot of dry cement powder weighs.

A barrel of cement weighs 376 lbs, or approximately 4 bags of regular cement.

Typically 5 bags are used to make one cubic yard of concrete.

 

Here is some additional information about cement shipping which I gleaned from Clark Propst who worked in a cement plant. While not about shipping malt, it may be of interest for those asking about shipping cement.

 

Minutes from board of directors meetings of one of the cement plants in Mason City IA ... I quote: It may be a matter of interest for you to know that the number of cars handled in our yards for the past year (1912) was 13,233. We shipped out 9444 carloads of cement and received incoming, fuel, etc., 3789 car loads. That year the plant averaged 4400 barrels of cement daily with a year output shipped at 1,424,998 barrels.

 

I was told that 80% of the cement shipped out of Mason City was shipped on the MStL. Probably an exaggeration. For many years Northwestern States Portland Cement Co. packaged their products in cloth sacks. The Plant put a 25 cent deposit on the sacks to ensure their return. The customers would get the sacks back via the railroads. The railroads would hold the sacks at their freight houses until a Plant truck would pick them up. The sacks were taken back to the "Beater Room" at the Plant. Here they were cleaned, next they were inspected and any holes stitched, then they could be refilled. The men in the "Beater Room" were piece workers. They were expected to clean 80 bundles of sacks a day. During WWII women did the "Beater Room" work with a quota of 120 bundles a day. When the men returned after the war the quota was returned to 80 bundles a day.

 

Today I had a quick chat with a retired cement plant employee. His career started in 1953, in the shipping department and he retired as the department supervisor. He told me how the bulk cement was loaded into box cars. They would put grain doors in perpendicular to the car sides on either side of the door way and fill both ends. Leaving the doorway open to stack sacked cement if the customer ordered any. The car ends could therefore be loaded with different types of cement. This was needless to say a very dirty job. At the time, bulk cement to be loaded into freight cars was transported in a screw (auger) outside the packhouse building and above car height. A long flexible steel  tube was pointed inside the car and the screw was started. The cement poured into the barricaded area like water with dust flying everywhere. The cement would flow over the top of the grain doors if the car received any rough handling enroute. But, this was evidently not an uncommon way customers wanted the product.

 

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Cement in bags, was RE: Malt Shipments

railsnw@...
 

Also remember cement was shipped in bulk in boxcars. When Seattle City Light was building the Diablo and Ross Dam's on the Skagit River in Washington state the cement was produced at the cement plants in Concrete, WA. It was loaded in bulk in Great Northern wood double sheath box cars and sent over the GN to Rockport, WA and than handled by Seattle City Light's Skagit River Railway to the Diablo and Ross Dam sites. This occurred from the late 1920's to late 1940's. At Diablo the cement was shoveled out of the cars into bunkers by hand and the workers got paid double for this miserable job. When Ross Dam was built large vacuum hoses sucked the cement out. Finally when the Ross Power House was built they switched to cement in covered hopper cars.


Did other large construction projects get cement delivered this way?


Richard Wilkens


Re: Malt Shipments

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

 

Bulk materials were also shipped in barrels -- wood, metal or paper.


    Good point, Tim. Fiber drums in particular were an important item of commerce in those days.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: completing a Richard Hendrickson freight car

Bill Welch
 

I think Tony is correct. If fact I went back and looked that the prototype photo of WLE 45153. Holding my Accurail AAR Gondola up against that photo, I think this WLE gon is a standard AAR 41' gondola.

Bill Welch


Re: Malt Shipments

Tim O'Connor
 


Bulk materials were also shipped in barrels -- wood, metal or paper.

But I agree with Tony malt was most likely shipped in bags -- Long
transit times etc probably meant bags were the best/cheapest way to
prevent contamination of the loads.

Tim O'Connor




I would guess sacked. It is remarkable in hindsight how much "bulk material" was routinely put into 100-pound bags (or some other size), shipped to destination, and all of it taken out of those sacks. This was even true for cement for dam projects, and I would guess malt was the same. In the 1930s, there were experiments on a number of railroads with bulk materials in box cars (grain, of course, already moved that way, but cement, sugar, and other materials were the subject of experimentation). Covered hoppers soon met that need, though several roads had essentially built their own out of box cars, by putting in slope sheets, top filling hatches, and bottom outlets.

Tony Thompson 


Re: completing a Richard Hendrickson freight car

Tony Thompson
 

Any idea what Richard used to replace the stock Mantua ends?


       I'm pretty sure they are Accurail ends. The Dreadnaught ribs are correctly rendered on both sides.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: completing a Richard Hendrickson freight car

Paolo Roffo
 

Tony --

Any idea what Richard used to replace the stock Mantua ends?

TIA
Paolo roffo


Re: Cement in bags, was RE: Malt Shipments

Tony Thompson
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

 
Tony, as a materials guy, I am sure you are aware that concrete mixes were specified as so many bags of cement along with volumetric measures for the aggregate and sand, so that lends credence to the idea that cement was shipped in uniformly sized bags.

 


   True, though the "idea" is not just a suggestion, it is based on both shipping records and on photos of men loading cement sacks into box cars. There are very similar photos of men loading 100-pound sacks of sugar in box cars. And of course those concrete formulas existed because the cement arrived that way, not because anything about materials ratios REQUIRED the cement to be in bags.
     I share your peeve, Schuyler, about "cement walks," etc. but unfortunately it is just one of many, many misnomers in popular use. And after all, cement is the key ingredient -- though from that viewpoint I suppose we should call a wooden deck a "nail deck."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Cement in bags

Andy Carlson
 

Well, Schuyler-
Jethro swam in the "cement pond" on the TV show Beverly Hillbillies. Surely you couldn't call that into question?

I will henceforth stop calling you Shirley.......
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC]"

This allows me a chance to vent about a pet peeve:  the difference between cement and concrete.  People talk about “cement walks” and foundations made of cement.  They are made of concrete, which is a mixture of cement, sand and aggregate.  To talk about a cement walk is tantamount to talking about a walk made of glue.
 
Schuyler (who feels a little better now . . .)
 


62861 - 62880 of 196824