Date   

Re: This image and the next three

MDelvec952
 



Likely there was a fatality, which is why they kept the wrecked wagon there long enough to dispatch a photographer with an 8x10 view camera, likely the next day.

And I don't mean to embarrass Schuyler, but this photo is from 1912. The "boxcars" on the siding are actually ice cars, which were insulated and had plug doors, most of which were built for ice service and not intended or marked for interchange. The Pocono Mountains had many lakes and ice harvesters.

The photo is at Plymouth is on the "Bloom," the line between Scranton and Northumberland that passed through Bloomsburg that was very coal laden near Scranton end.  That's the Parrish Breaker in the distance that straddles the main line.

           ....Mike Del Vecchio



-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sun, Jun 21, 2015 3:44 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] This image and the next three

 

flat tire, circa 1892



Are documentation images of an accident in Plymouth PA, 1892.  Several DL&W box cars and context.
 
http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-06-20-15/C1173.jpg
 
Schuyler


Re: This image and the next three

Charles Peck
 

I find the group of three insulated box cars interesting.  All in rough shape as in "not suitable for interchange"
but then likely only in local use anyway.  No poling pockets although I understand poling was common
in that era.  The center car of the three has a truss rod loose and perhaps the queenpost missing.  Certainly
sagging for lack of attention.  I suppose wooden cars of the era did require a lot more attention from the
car shops than the later steel cars. 
The canvas(?) above and below the doors are interesting features. Extra padding to better seal the doors
against sags and twists? 
Certainly an era that would be very interesting to model if I knew more about it all.
Chuck Peck (so very grateful for modern air conditioning in Florida) 

On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 11:02 PM, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Are documentation images of an accident in Plymouth PA, 1892.  Several DL&W box cars and context.

 

 

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-06-20-15/C1173.jpg

 

Schuyler



Re: This image and the next three

Tim O'Connor
 


flat tire, circa 1892



Are documentation images of an accident in Plymouth PA, 1892.  Several DL&W box cars and context.
 
http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-06-20-15/C1173.jpg
 
Schuyler


Re: Determining Rung Spacing When Scratch Building Ladders

Robert kirkham
 

Speaking of ladders and tools, for the origami brass ladders used in Yarmouth kits, I’ve used a scrap piece of styrene cut to a squared letter C shape.  Along the top and bottom of the C, I super-glue grab irons so the wire mounting arms are sticking up from the jig.   The wire arms provides 4 mounting points for the two ladder stiles, and makes it easy to glue the remaining rungs into place while keeping the ladder square.   One they are complete, the ladder is removed from the jig and the top and bottom rungs can be added.
 
 
 
Rob Kirkham 
 
 
 
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 4:23 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Determining Rung Spacing When Scratch Building Ladders
 


The technique works with notebook paper or any other set of parallel lines as long as they are spaced closer than your desired spacing.  You don't even need a ruler!  Just transfer the distance between the top and bottom to your cardstock, then place one mark on the first line, and swing the other till it is on the seventh line (or six or five for fewer rungs).  Mark the intersections on your template and you have your rung spacing.  If you really want it to the gnats a.., pick the distance off the model with locking dividers, swing those to the number of desired rungs, then butt your template edge against the dividers and mark or draw a line on the parallel lines and reset the dividers to the interval along the line.  What you are doing is using the equal interval of the parallel lines to divide the uneven distance.  It's a slick trick you can use for all sorts of evenly spaced layout tasks like gondola ribs, panel seams, window mullions, etc.

John
 
John Barry

ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights

707-490-9696

PO Box 44736
Washington, DC 20026-4736
 

From: "'Scott H. Haycock ' shhaycock@... [STMFC]"
To: Steam Era Freight Cars
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Determining Rung Spacing When Scratch Building Ladders
 
 
Bill's explanation was hard for me to follow, and I know the trick. I'll try to explain it by example.
 
I took an HO boxcar off my layout and, using a ruler, measured a side ladder. The top rung is 1-9/32". or 1.28125" from the bottom rung, center to center. There are 7 rungs in the ladder. 7 rungs means 6 spaces between rungs. The spacing between rung works out to .2135", an inconvenient measurement! 
 
For this to work, you want to use a measurement that is less than the total (1.28125''). 6 times 3/16" equals 1.125", a lesser number.
 
Now, Take a piece of paper and draw 7 parallel lines, 3/16" apart. Take a piece of cardstock, and make a pair of small marks 1-9/32" apart along one edge. Align the bottom  mark on the cardstock, with the bottom-most line.Rotate the card so that the top mark lines up with the top line. This is where the angle comes in. Now all the other lines can be marked on the card, and they will be evenly spaced.

This is easier to do, than explain. Try it with my numbers, then you'll grasp the concept. 
 
Scott Haycock
 



 
 
OK, I’m always grateful to learn new tricks, but this one I do not follow.  Bill - what is the advantage you are gaining with the diagonal lines?  I do not see how drawing equally spaced marks on the diagonals is easier than doing so on the vertical line?  Clearly I’m missing something.  Can you explain.
 
Rob Kirkham
 
 
 



Re: Determining Rung Spacing When Scratch Building Ladders

Robert kirkham
 

Thanks for the explanation Scott (and Greg Kennelly of list).  
 
Rob Kirkham    
 
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Determining Rung Spacing When Scratch Building Ladders
 


Bill's explanation was hard for me to follow, and I know the trick. I'll try to explain it by example.
 
I took an HO boxcar off my layout and, using a ruler, measured a side ladder. The top rung is 1-9/32". or 1.28125" from the bottom rung, center to center. There are 7 rungs in the ladder. 7 rungs means 6 spaces between rungs. The spacing between rung works out to .2135", an inconvenient measurement! 
 
For this to work, you want to use a measurement that is less than the total (1.28125''). 6 times 3/16" equals 1.125", a lesser number.
 
Now, Take a piece of paper and draw 7 parallel lines, 3/16" apart. Take a piece of cardstock, and make a pair of small marks 1-9/32" apart along one edge. Align the bottom  mark on the cardstock, with the bottom-most line.Rotate the card so that the top mark lines up with the top line. This is where the angle comes in. Now all the other lines can be marked on the card, and they will be evenly spaced.

This is easier to do, than explain. Try it with my numbers, then you'll grasp the concept. 
 
Scott Haycock
 

 

 

OK, I’m always grateful to learn new tricks, but this one I do not follow.  Bill - what is the advantage you are gaining with the diagonal lines?  I do not see how drawing equally spaced marks on the diagonals is easier than doing so on the vertical line?  Clearly I’m missing something.  Can you explain.
 
Rob Kirkham
 

 

 


SAL B-7 Underframe Help Needed

Bill Welch
 

The instructions with Sunshine #55.8 for a Seaboard B-7 Round Roof Boxcar would have us build the car with the same Underframe as the SAL's Round Roof DD AF-1 class, their #55.7. I don't think this is correct as the B-7 was essentially an ARA 1932 car with a different roof (and ends).


I think the Underframe should look like those on the 1932, 1937, and 1942 cars. Can SAL folks help me understand if I am correct or not, please? Thank you!


Bill Welch

 


Re: Determining Rung Spacing When Scratch Building Ladders

John Barry
 

The technique works with notebook paper or any other set of parallel lines as long as they are spaced closer than your desired spacing.  You don't even need a ruler!  Just transfer the distance between the top and bottom to your cardstock, then place one mark on the first line, and swing the other till it is on the seventh line (or six or five for fewer rungs).  Mark the intersections on your template and you have your rung spacing.  If you really want it to the gnats a.., pick the distance off the model with locking dividers, swing those to the number of desired rungs, then butt your template edge against the dividers and mark or draw a line on the parallel lines and reset the dividers to the interval along the line.  What you are doing is using the equal interval of the parallel lines to divide the uneven distance.  It's a slick trick you can use for all sorts of evenly spaced layout tasks like gondola ribs, panel seams, window mullions, etc.

John
 
John Barry

ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights

707-490-9696

PO Box 44736
Washington, DC 20026-4736


From: "'Scott H. Haycock ' shhaycock@... [STMFC]"
To: Steam Era Freight Cars
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Determining Rung Spacing When Scratch Building Ladders

 
Bill's explanation was hard for me to follow, and I know the trick. I'll try to explain it by example.

I took an HO boxcar off my layout and, using a ruler, measured a side ladder. The top rung is 1-9/32". or 1.28125" from the bottom rung, center to center. There are 7 rungs in the ladder. 7 rungs means 6 spaces between rungs. The spacing between rung works out to .2135", an inconvenient measurement!  

For this to work, you want to use a measurement that is less than the total (1.28125''). 6 times 3/16" equals 1.125", a lesser number.

Now, Take a piece of paper and draw 7 parallel lines, 3/16" apart. Take a piece of cardstock, and make a pair of small marks 1-9/32" apart along one edge. Align the bottom  mark on the cardstock, with the bottom-most line.Rotate the card so that the top mark lines up with the top line. This is where the angle comes in. Now all the other lines can be marked on the card, and they will be evenly spaced.

This is easier to do, than explain. Try it with my numbers, then you'll grasp the concept.  

Scott Haycock




 

OK, I’m always grateful to learn new tricks, but this one I do not follow.  Bill - what is the advantage you are gaining with the diagonal lines?  I do not see how drawing equally spaced marks on the diagonals is easier than doing so on the vertical line?  Clearly I’m missing something.  Can you explain.
 
Rob Kirkham 






Re: Determining Rung Spacing When Scratch Building Ladders

Scott H. Haycock
 

Bill's explanation was hard for me to follow, and I know the trick. I'll try to explain it by example.

I took an HO boxcar off my layout and, using a ruler, measured a side ladder. The top rung is 1-9/32". or 1.28125" from the bottom rung, center to center. There are 7 rungs in the ladder. 7 rungs means 6 spaces between rungs. The spacing between rung works out to .2135", an inconvenient measurement!  

For this to work, you want to use a measurement that is less than the total (1.28125''). 6 times 3/16" equals 1.125", a lesser number.

Now, Take a piece of paper and draw 7 parallel lines, 3/16" apart. Take a piece of cardstock, and make a pair of small marks 1-9/32" apart along one edge. Align the bottom  mark on the cardstock, with the bottom-most line.Rotate the card so that the top mark lines up with the top line. This is where the angle comes in. Now all the other lines can be marked on the card, and they will be evenly spaced.

This is easier to do, than explain. Try it with my numbers, then you'll grasp the concept.  

Scott Haycock


 


OK, I’m always grateful to learn new tricks, but this one I do not follow.  Bill - what is the advantage you are gaining with the diagonal lines?  I do not see how drawing equally spaced marks on the diagonals is easier than doing so on the vertical line?  Clearly I’m missing something.  Can you explain.
 
Rob Kirkham 




Re: D&RGW 40000-42500 GS Gons

Dave Nelson
 

I’ve been very interesting in this particular car for nearly 20 years now. AFAIK no model of any kind has been made, perhaps because there are almost no photographs of it I’ve seen just a couple in that period and IIRC non e were good enough to use for anything.



Look for a short GS gon w/ wood extensions, maybe in sugar beet use..



Dave Nelson



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 4:06 PM
To: STMFC List
Subject: [STMFC] D&RGW 40000-42500 GS Gons








These seem to be the "signature" car for the D&RGW in my modelling era of 1945 with 2315 cars where the line had only 4233 box cars of all types. The 4000 was a 36' inside length all steel car with a 10 inch side extension. The photo I've seen from the SP valuation records shows 8 side panels with 7 substantial ribs. The extensions were present in the 20s from the photo. Does anyone make this car in HO? Seems a natural for pig and coke service to Pittsburg CA.



John Barry

ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights

707-490-9696

PO Box 44736
Washington, DC 20026-4736


Re: Determining Rung Spacing When Scratch Building Ladders

Robert kirkham
 

OK, I’m always grateful to learn new tricks, but this one I do not follow.  Bill - what is the advantage you are gaining with the diagonal lines?  I do not see how drawing equally spaced marks on the diagonals is easier than doing so on the vertical line?  Clearly I’m missing something.  Can you explain.
 
Rob Kirkham 


This image and the next three

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Are documentation images of an accident in Plymouth PA, 1892.  Several DL&W box cars and context.

 

 

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-06-20-15/C1173.jpg

 

Schuyler


Re: D&RGW 40000-42500 GS Gons

Mark Hemphill
 

Not of which I am aware.  Anyone know if there's a reasonable approximation?


Re: Whose proprietary gondola end?

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Gary,

D&RGW 47000-47499 were built in 1949 by Pressed Steel Car Company, so that is likely a PSC proprietary "car builders" end. These cars also had conventional underframes rather than the Duryea underframes the Rio Grande had favored in earlier cars of this type. See Jim Eager's RIO GRANDE COLOR GUIDE TO FREIGHT AND PASSENGER EQUIPMENT, page 76.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 6/20/15 4:47 PM, 'gary laakso' vasa0vasa@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

The proprietary gondola end is on DRGW 47495:
 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock


D&RGW 40000-42500 GS Gons

John Barry
 

These seem to be the "signature" car for the D&RGW in my modelling era of 1945 with 2315 cars where the line had only 4233 box cars of all types.  The 4000 was a 36' inside length all steel car with a 10 inch side extension.  The photo I've seen from the SP valuation records shows 8 side panels with 7 substantial ribs.  The extensions were present in the 20s from the photo.  Does anyone make this car in HO?  Seems a natural for pig and coke service to Pittsburg CA.
 
John Barry

ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights

707-490-9696

PO Box 44736
Washington, DC 20026-4736


Re: Broadway ltd announces 6,000 gallon ACF type 27 tank car

Steve SANDIFER
 

I tried to decide what would work for my 1952 layout and searched the ORER for info. I could not find the Columbia Southern or the Brown Company. The only Staufer I could fine was 3000 gal. Hooker was a 5800 gal. Canadian was there but I don't know if they ended up in Kansas. Penn Salt had them as did PPGX, Ethyl and Shippers.



I have personally talked to Broadway about doing the 4 packs because I don't want to buy 4 of them, either 4 of the same user or the assorted. I really don't need 4 of these - maybe 2 at most. That is assuming they are good. If you agree, let them know you are interested in singles and 2s.



__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 3:12 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Broadway ltd announces 6,000 gallon ACF type 27 tank car






Nothing yet, I'm waiting patiently as well

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

_____


From:"Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
Date:Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 2:58 PM
Subject:Re: [STMFC] Broadway ltd announces 6,000 gallon ACF type 27 tank car



On 6/20/2015 10:29 AM, mopac1@... [STMFC] wrote:

Has Broadway Limited ever posted photos or drawing of the various paint schemes they are offering?


No! The only photo is the Hooker car (prototype)!

I was going to order a variety pack but can't determine date's of the cars so no go.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Whose proprietary gondola end?

gary laakso
 

The proprietary gondola end is on DRGW 47495:
 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock


Re: Broadway ltd announces 6,000 gallon ACF type 27 tank car

Mark Drake <markstation01@...>
 

Nothing yet, I'm waiting patiently as well 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android


From:"Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC]"
Date:Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 2:58 PM
Subject:Re: [STMFC] Broadway ltd announces 6,000 gallon ACF type 27 tank car

 

On 6/20/2015 10:29 AM, mopac1@... [STMFC] wrote:
Has Broadway Limited ever posted photos or drawing of the various paint schemes they are offering?

No!  The only photo is the Hooker car (prototype)!

I was going to order a variety pack but can't determine date's of the cars so no go.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Broadway ltd announces 6,000 gallon ACF type 27 tank car

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 6/20/2015 10:29 AM, mopac1@... [STMFC] wrote:
Has Broadway Limited ever posted photos or drawing of the various paint schemes they are offering?

No!  The only photo is the Hooker car (prototype)!

I was going to order a variety pack but can't determine date's of the cars so no go.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Broadway ltd announces 6,000 gallon ACF type 27 tank car

mopac1@...
 

Has Broadway Limited ever posted photos or drawing of the various paint schemes they are offering?


Gene Semon


M-24a/b covered hoppers from boxcars

Jim Mischke
 

Recently offered on ebay was B&O 287015, photo is attached for the B&O list.  It is mislabeled as a plain M-24 USRA boxcar, it is actually a hopper bottom boxcar class M-24a, reported at Parkersburg, W.Va. circa 1955, Paul Dunn photograph.  Reweigh date is in 1951.  Note the diagonal rivet passing by the B&O dome herald which hold the slope sheets.  This image is correctly identified in Ed Hawkins' publication RP-CYC in its feature article about USRA single sheath boxcars.
There has long been confusion about these cars, maybe we can sort it out a little.
In 1933, B&O needed some equipment to cover a large new cement account, for the Vang Construction Company, a major contractor working on Lock and Dam #3 on the Allegheny river at Pittsburgh.  This was at the beginning of some advanced materials handling technology and railroads slowly acknowledging the need for specialized equipment, even if it meant empty backhauls to the source.   Covered hoppers as we know them were just being developed by the equipment trade, B&O chose to do what D&H had recently done ...  equip boxcars with internal hoppers and roof hatches.   This was only practical because Vang and their cement supplier (probably Vang, too) could accommodate loading and unloading such equipment.  The alterative was endless cement bagging and bag dumping on a scale only a biblical scholar could appreciate.  B&O modified 40 M-24 USRA single sheath boxcars with hoppers and hopper doors as class M-24a 287000-287039.
These Vang cars, as they became known, worked this job for about four years, 1933-1937.  As this traffic tapered off, 18 cars in this series were reconverted to handle zinc cinders (B&O term, they must mean zinc sinters, a specialized industrial feedstock) for DuPont between New Castle, Pa. and Spelter W.Va. (also called Meadowbrook in a 1940 B&O memo.) as class M-24b.   Eight other cars in were redeployed to haul sand for Dupont between a quarry near Copley, Ohio on the AC&Y and Cleveland, Ohio, remaining as class M-24a.  These too, may have been modified for the different lading.   The other 14 M-24a hopper cars were converted back to M-24 boxcars.
The 26 remaining M-24a/b covered hopper cars remained active well into the 1950's, the Cleveland sand cars were still in the 1958 Summary of Equipment.
The key to this story was a specialized equipment table in the 1935 and 1941 Form 6 Lists of Stations and Sidings, and a 1940 memo in the B&OHS Arbutus archives.


Light analysis:
-  Although we might desire to model these cars, they were scarce.   These three jobs for cement, zinc powder, and sand may well have been the only work they did, dedicated services on limited routes for years at a time.
-  Some confusion about roof and high side hatches persists because differences in their Mt. Clare shop photos (mostly of car 287039) and the clearance diagrams.  Remember that shop photos and builders photos mostly show the first sample car, and may not reflect fleet appearance in service.  Hatches and hopper specifics may be determined by the lading hauled, and the facilities at each end of the trip.
-  The difference between the M-24a and M-24b is not called out in surviving B&O clearance diagrams.   We have B&O clearance diagrams for the M-24a/b, but not all revisions.  And the difference might be minor, say, a hopper hatch fitting important for material flow.   Takeaway is that all revisions may be important, don't be satisfied with only the first one found.  We may be a diagram revision or two away from resolving several questions.
-  I spoke once with Don Tichy about producing this B&O car in addition to the D&H Tichy boxcar and he was receptive.  The holdup is that the hopper arrangement on the B&O cars is very different and no illuminating source of such underbody detail has emerged.
-   We owe much to old time photographers Steve Davidson of Parkersburg and then Indianapolis, and Paul Dunn of Zanesville.  They may have known each other, traded, and railfanned together.   They kept a sharp eye out for both unique and common rolling stock, the way birders conscientiously keep a life list.  They knew what they were looking at and shooting; their collections survived to inform us today.
-  Future research directions:  (1)  some hopper and underbody documentation sufficient for model tooling, (2) the exact difference between the M-24a and M-24b versions, (3) which 26 car road numbers were M-24a/b, and (4) which industrial facilities at Copley, Cleveland, Spelter/Meadowbrook, New Castle, and near Pittsburgh handled these cars, some specifics might yield more photos and insight.


Discussion is invited, ours is a collective wisdom.









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