Date   

Re: "Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Garth

Interesting about the GRCX 5010 shot -- I would have guessed this car
was built much later. Even though it is stenciled SSC 1923, it has no "strap iron"
tie downs like other tank cars of that time period, and instead has the later
bracket/anchor combination. And the tank saddles definitely look ACF-ish to
me although I am no expert.

Without that 1923 stencil I would have guessed this car was an ACF Type 27
or an even later version. Sometimes new tanks were put onto old frames, or old
tanks put onto new frames, not so?

The WRMX 14280 on the other hand appears to have saddles of the type used by
either SSC or PTC and has the strap iron tie downs too. Definitely a vintage car.

Tim O'

Dave and Tim,

In John Henderson's CLASSIC FREIGHT CARS V. 2 there are photos of 10K GRCX 5010
and 8K WRMX 14280. Neither is in the paint scheme you've been looking for, but
they are nice views of early cars with good detail.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff


Re: "Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

Richard Townsend
 

I think the Gulf car is a separate matter from the BLI 6K cars. The two threads may have gotten conflated somehow, but they are two distinct issues, one asking for nominations for the 6K BLI car, and one asking for info on the 8K Gulf cars.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Jun 22, 2015 4:33 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

 
On 6/22/2015 4:12 PM, Dave Parker spottab@... [STMFC] wrote:
3.  Based on Ted's book, the ITM car, and a bit of guesswork, I have come with this explanation for these four series of 8000 gal GRCX cars in the December, 1930 ORER:

    But least we forget we are dealing with a 6K tank here!

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: "Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

Dave Parker
 

Tony:

Thanks for the clarification; that is very helpful.  Hypothetically, if I were planning a trip to Sacramento, could I pre-arrange things with the archivist so that a group of photos (say all tank cars with GRCX reporting marks) were "pulled" ahead of time and available for inspection during my visit?  Also, could copies or scans of selected photos then be obtained (for a fee)?

Thanks!

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: "Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 6/22/2015 4:12 PM, Dave Parker spottab@... [STMFC] wrote:
3.  Based on Ted's book, the ITM car, and a bit of guesswork, I have come with this explanation for these four series of 8000 gal GRCX cars in the December, 1930 ORER:

    But least we forget we are dealing with a 6K tank here!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: "Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Parker wrote:

 
PS:  I understand that Richard had a pretty sizable collection of Gulf photos, but I am unclear as to the accessibility of his collection in Sacramento at this time.  Tony, can you advise?  


      The photos have been placed in archival storage materials, and I think are accessible if you make a specific request. Richard filed all his photos, first by car type, then alphabetically by reporting mark. That filing is being retained at CSRM.
       Many of his prints had no source info on them, but I have his prototype car card file, and hope that many images are identified there. I will be working at CSRM to transfer that info later this summer or into the fall.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: "Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Dave and Tim,

In John Henderson's CLASSIC FREIGHT CARS V. 2 there are photos of 10K GRCX 5010 and 8K WRMX 14280. Neither is in the paint scheme you've been looking for, but they are nice views of early cars with good detail.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 6/22/15 6:33 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Dave

A Type 27 means built by AC&F. No idea what the "Petroleum Iron Works" means.

GRCX series 3700-4099 lists

399 8,000 gallon tank cars in 1940
393 8,000 gallon tank cars in 1950
388 8,000 gallon tank cars in 1959

So the reporting marks and size of the car are accurate for the entire period from
1940 to 1959. And the mark belongs to Gulf Oil Corporation, so that's good. I hope
someone out there has a photo of a car in this series !! :-) Whether it's a Type 21
or a Type 27, it would be great for Walthers or Intermountain to know which !

Michael Gross back in 2012 posted a photo of his model of GRCX 5016, a Walthers
10,000 gallon (ex-Varney I think) that's lettered as a Standard Steel Car tank.
GRCX 5000-5199 was a series of 10,000 gallon cars also nearly fully populated in
the 1940-1959 time period. Michael's tank car has the same style lettering shown
in your photo, although the model is heavily weathered.

For some reason, although I have over 2,000 scans of tank cars (including hundreds
from pre-1960) -- I have not got a single shot of a GRCX tank car. With nearly 600
cars in just these two series, they certainly were not rare !

Tim O'Connor

At the Indiana Transportation Museum in Noblesville, there is a beautifully restored GRCX 3746 tank car built in 1930 (a Type 27" built by the Petroleum Iron Works according to the web site):
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/rsPicture.aspx?id=254923

It is black, with white lettering: That Good Gulf Gasoline, Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl on the left, and the familiar orange logo on the right. This scheme seems to have been utilized in a number of models over the years, including a current Walthers Mainline RTR in HO (not suitable for RPM types!). I also have an old Champ decal set, HC-64, that provides the same lettering, albeit for a GATX car built in 1947.

My question is: does anybody have (or has anybody seen) a prototype photo that would support the use of this scheme on a 1920s or 1930s GRCX car? My photo collection is quite modest, but the closest I can get is a 1927 AC&F builder's photo of a Type 21 that has a similar lettering scheme, but with black lettering on white (or silver?). It is a Conley lease (CYCX 10406), not a GRCX car per se.

PS: I understand that Richard had a pretty sizable collection of Gulf photos, but I am unclear as to the accessibility of his collection in Sacramento at this time. Tony, can you advise?

Any help will be appreciated!

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA



Re: "Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

Dave Parker
 

Tim:

I am glad I am not alone in my vain search for relevant photos.  A few comments:

1.  I know what a Type 27 is; the quotation marks were for a reason. I think the Petroleum Iron Works is legit; if you zoom in on the ITM pic you can see the "PIW".  It might be the most obscure tank car manufacturer I have come across, but there is this nugget from petroleumhistory.org (and a couple of other crumbs on the WWW):

“Petroleum Iron Works Co., Sharon, PA, and Masury, Ohio. Founded by Joseph Cullinan (later Pres. Of Texaco). This company purchased Pennsylvania Tank Car Co., Jan. 1, 1927, which later became part of GATX.”

My sense is they were more involved in making drums and refinery tanks, but they seemingly made at least a few entire cars.

2.  In his tank car book, Ted describes how Standard Steel made a lot of cars for Gulf (but not many for anybody else), often to somewhat unique designs.  There are several protopix, but all plain-jane (and post-war).  The current Walthers RTR, despite its other shortcomings, also shows Standard Steel, and a 1923 build date.

3.  Based on Ted's book, the ITM car, and a bit of guesswork, I have come with this explanation for these four series of 8000 gal GRCX cars in the December, 1930 ORER:

2700 to 3299      Std Steel, 1923 (593 cars)
3600 to 3600      Std Steel, 1930 (100)
3700 to 3811      PIW, 1930 (112)
3850 to 4052      GATC, 1930 (208)

Note that the last three series are listed as "additions" in 1930.  My 1935 ORER does not disagree, although there were some minor shifts and changes.

So, I have a bead on what I might try to model (for 1934-35), but am still seeking justification for that particular color scheme.

Thanks,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA




















Re: Broadway ltd announces 6,000 gallon ACF type 27 tank car

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 6/22/2015 1:41 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:
Ethyl seems like a really good choice -- there's a photo of EBAX 628 in
the Sept 2004 Railmodel Journal, and the cars were painted in a light
gray
color scheme from the 1930's
    As many do specific period RRs a build date doesn't help.  Seems tanks lasted forever.  Photo for certain eras I guess would be needed.  Maybe now is the time for those with the knowledge to talk to BLI.
    But maybe they didn't paint tanks as often as other cars!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: "Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

Richard Townsend
 

Petroleum Iron Works was in the business of manufacturing steel storage tanks and was started by Joseph Cullinan, the founder of what became Texaco, in 1895 in New Castle Pennsylvania. Don'y know if the made any rail cars or just made tanks for others.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Jun 22, 2015 3:33 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

 
Dave

A Type 27 means built by AC&F. No idea what the "Petroleum Iron Works" means.

GRCX series 3700-4099 lists

399 8,000 gallon tank cars in 1940
393 8,000 gallon tank cars in 1950
388 8,000 gallon tank cars in 1959

So the reporting marks and size of the car are accurate for the entire period from
1940 to 1959. And the mark belongs to Gulf Oil Corporation, so that's good. I hope
someone out there has a photo of a car in this series !! :-) Whether it's a Type 21
or a Type 27, it would be great for Walthers or Intermountain to know which !

Michael Gross back in 2012 posted a photo of his model of GRCX 5016, a Walthers
10,000 gallon (ex-Varney I think) that's lettered as a Standard Steel Car tank.
GRCX 5000-5199 was a series of 10,000 gallon cars also nearly fully populated in
the 1940-1959 time period. Michael's tank car has the same style lettering shown
in your photo, although the model is heavily weathered.

For some reason, although I have over 2,000 scans of tank cars (including hundreds
from pre-1960) -- I have not got a single shot of a GRCX tank car. With nearly 600
cars in just these two series, they certainly were not rare !

Tim O'Connor

At the Indiana Transportation Museum in Noblesville, there is a beautifully restored GRCX 3746 tank car built in 1930 (a Type 27" built by the Petroleum Iron Works according to the web site):
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/rsPicture.aspx?id=254923

It is black, with white lettering: That Good Gulf Gasoline, Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl on the left, and the familiar orange logo on the right. This scheme seems to have been utilized in a number of models over the years, including a current Walthers Mainline RTR in HO (not suitable for RPM types!). I also have an old Champ decal set, HC-64, that provides the same lettering, albeit for a GATX car built in 1947.

My question is: does anybody have (or has anybody seen) a prototype photo that would support the use of this scheme on a 1920s or 1930s GRCX car? My photo collection is quite modest, but the closest I can get is a 1927 AC&F builder's photo of a Type 21 that has a similar lettering scheme, but with black lettering on white (or silver?). It is a Conley lease (CYCX 10406), not a GRCX car per se.

PS: I understand that Richard had a pretty sizable collection of Gulf photos, but I am unclear as to the accessibility of his collection in Sacramento at this time. Tony, can you advise?

Any help will be appreciated!

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: "Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Dave

A Type 27 means built by AC&F. No idea what the "Petroleum Iron Works" means.

GRCX series 3700-4099 lists

399 8,000 gallon tank cars in 1940
393 8,000 gallon tank cars in 1950
388 8,000 gallon tank cars in 1959

So the reporting marks and size of the car are accurate for the entire period from
1940 to 1959. And the mark belongs to Gulf Oil Corporation, so that's good. I hope
someone out there has a photo of a car in this series !! :-) Whether it's a Type 21
or a Type 27, it would be great for Walthers or Intermountain to know which !

Michael Gross back in 2012 posted a photo of his model of GRCX 5016, a Walthers
10,000 gallon (ex-Varney I think) that's lettered as a Standard Steel Car tank.
GRCX 5000-5199 was a series of 10,000 gallon cars also nearly fully populated in
the 1940-1959 time period. Michael's tank car has the same style lettering shown
in your photo, although the model is heavily weathered.

For some reason, although I have over 2,000 scans of tank cars (including hundreds
from pre-1960) -- I have not got a single shot of a GRCX tank car. With nearly 600
cars in just these two series, they certainly were not rare !

Tim O'Connor




At the Indiana Transportation Museum in Noblesville, there is a beautifully restored GRCX 3746 tank car built in 1930 (a Type 27" built by the Petroleum Iron Works according to the web site):
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/rsPicture.aspx?id=254923

It is black, with white lettering: That Good Gulf Gasoline, Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl on the left, and the familiar orange logo on the right. This scheme seems to have been utilized in a number of models over the years, including a current Walthers Mainline RTR in HO (not suitable for RPM types!). I also have an old Champ decal set, HC-64, that provides the same lettering, albeit for a GATX car built in 1947.

My question is: does anybody have (or has anybody seen) a prototype photo that would support the use of this scheme on a 1920s or 1930s GRCX car? My photo collection is quite modest, but the closest I can get is a 1927 AC&F builder's photo of a Type 21 that has a similar lettering scheme, but with black lettering on white (or silver?). It is a Conley lease (CYCX 10406), not a GRCX car per se.

PS: I understand that Richard had a pretty sizable collection of Gulf photos, but I am unclear as to the accessibility of his collection in Sacramento at this time. Tony, can you advise?

Any help will be appreciated!

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


"Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl" Tank Cars

Dave Parker
 

At the Indiana Transportation Museum in Noblesville, there is a beautifully restored GRCX 3746 tank car built in 1930 (a “Type 27" built by the Petroleum Iron Works according to the web site):

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/rsPicture.aspx?id=254923

It is black, with white lettering:  “That Good Gulf Gasoline, Good Gulf No-Nox Ethyl” on the left, and the familiar orange logo on the right.  This scheme seems to have been utilized in a number of models over the years, including a current Walthers Mainline RTR in HO (not suitable for RPM types!).  I also have an old Champ decal set, HC-64, that provides the same lettering, albeit for a GATX car built in 1947.

My question is:  does anybody have (or has anybody seen) a prototype photo that would support the use of this scheme on a 1920s or 1930s GRCX car?  My photo collection is quite modest, but the closest I can get is a 1927 AC&F builder’s photo of a Type 21(lot 418) that has a similar lettering scheme, but with black lettering on white (or silver?).  It is a Conley lease (CYCX 10406), not a GRCX car per se.


PS:  I understand that Richard had a pretty sizable collection of Gulf photos, but I am unclear as to the accessibility of his collection in Sacramento at this time.  Tony, can you advise? 


Any help will be appreciated!

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA



Re: The Keystone Modeler #10

Dave Nelson
 

Copy received.  Thank you Eric!

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 1:44 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: [STMFC] The Keystone Modeler #10

 




I seem to have mislaid / not obtained a copy of the free Keystone Modeler #10, published around May 2004.  I’d very much appreciate a copy… I’d like to read the article on the G27 gons.

 

Dave Nelson

 


The Keystone Modeler #10

Dave Nelson
 

I seem to have mislaid / not obtained a copy of the free Keystone Modeler #10, published around May 2004.  I’d very much appreciate a copy… I’d like to read the article on the G27 gons.

 

Dave Nelson


Re: Broadway ltd announces 6,000 gallon ACF type 27 tank car

Tim O'Connor
 

Ethyl seems like a really good choice -- there's a photo of EBAX 628 in
the Sept 2004 Railmodel Journal, and the cars were painted in a light
gray
color scheme from the 1930's to the 1950's. I have color scans of them
in
at least 4 different schemes from the 1950's to 1990's.

Tim O'Connor



Those went in the catalog too soon.  We'll get the paint schemes posted as soon as possible, but it will probably be late July before they are ready. What do you want to see on the cars?  What dates are you looking for? Sincerely, Matt Williamson


Re: Broadway ltd announces 6,000 gallon ACF type 27 tank car

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

    FYI, I received the following from BLI;


"Hi Jon,
Those went in the catalog too soon.  We'll get the paint schemes posted as
soon as possible, but it will probably be late July before they are ready.
What do you want to see on the cars?  What dates are you looking for? 
Sincerely,
Matt Williamson
Broadway Limited Imports"

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Caboose Lighting?

np328
 

    I might be late to this conversation however had found the following when writing an article for my societies publication years ago about bay window boxcar cabooses:

 

E M Helgeson, General Chairman of the Order of Railway Conductors wrote to NP General Manager W W Judson asking that any future cabooses retain the cupola feature.

 

And here it is:

 "In addition, another concern was when stockmen (drovers) rode in the caboose accompanying their stock, they insisted on keeping the lamps lit. Often reading as they rode, the light affected the crew's ability to see out the windows; Cupolas being apart from the main body of the caboose were always dark."

Letter, July 15, 1942    Superintendent Flynn to W W Judson, Presidents Subject File 24,

Minnesota Historical Society

 

                                                                                Jim Dick - Roseville, MN

PS - the reading material of the drovers?  Zane Grey novels another letter lists.



Re: This image and the next three

Dennis Storzek
 

There was never any requirement to have poling pockets. They were a defensive move by the railroads; otherwise creative switchmen would jam the pole wherever they though it wouldn't slip, and if it happened to damage the car, not their problem. Same thing with roping staples; railroads started adding them to keep customers with car movers from ripping the sill steps off. It's a good bet that's how that queenpost disappeared.

Apparently, the DL&W was cheap, and wouldn't spend the money on either.

Dennis Storzek


Re: This image and the next three

Charles Peck
 

I looked at all three photos and all I see on the corners is a large cast washer under the nut that
fastens the outer truss rod to the end sill.  
Chuck Peck

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:07 AM, John Larkin jflarkingrc@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

I can see what appears to be a poling pocket on the first car in the series.  The rest would, of course, be hidden.

John Larkin



1930 C&O Box car instructions

Doug Pillow
 

Hi All'

Anyone have instructions for 1930 C&O box car they can scan and e mail me. Yankee Clipper or Funaro and Carmelengo will work. E mail is jssp46@.... It would be most appreciated.


                                                                                  Thank You

                                                                                  Doug Pillow


Re: This image and the next three

John Larkin
 

I can see what appears to be a poling pocket on the first car in the series.  The rest would, of course, be hidden.

John Larkin

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