Date   

Re: Tank car ratio?

Tim O'Connor
 

David Lehlbach wrote

> I believe that the 1 billboard for every 10 black cars to be only somewhat true
> ... It depends on the LOCALE you are modeling.

Yes. I'm reminded of that Robert Morris photo of the SP Fresno CA yard that shows two
strings of WINE tank cars (about 40 cars are visible) in a huge variety of shapes and
sizes and (very likely) paint and lettering schemes.

But then I've also seen yard photos showing dozens of black tank cars (some cars with
bold lettering like DX or SINCLAIR etc) generally in the vicinity of oil refineries,
mixed with occasional strings of silver or white MAGNOLIA or TEXACO or other such cars.

I think the trend in the postwar era was for bolder paint schemes for NEW cars built
for private leases but wherever the older cars predominated, you would mostly still see
plain black tank cars.

Tim O'Connor


Re: N&W box car trucks identification needed !

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Tim,

I think Red Ball or Cape Line offered this truck in pot metal.

The boxcar itself is a unique design I've admired many times and would love to have in a resin kit. Note the 10-rung ladders, 8-panel sides and the interesting side sill.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 6/30/15 10:42 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:
 


Simplex perhaps? I have a feeling I've seen them before but can't think of the name

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121691737202

Tim O'



N&W box car trucks identification needed !

Tim O'Connor
 

Simplex perhaps? I have a feeling I've seen them before but can't think of the name

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121691737202

Tim O'


Re: Tank car ratio?

Tangent Scale Models
 

---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote :

Stan Agar wrote:

 
Can anyone help with a rough ratio of tank cars in plain black to those in other colors and also with large ‘Billboard’ lettering? I have been buying and building mostly plain-Jane black cars with just reporting marks and only a few brighter cars as that’s what seems to turn up in photos. I’m aware that location will be a factor and maybe the tendency of photographers to take pictures of colourful cars rather then the plainer ones (Been there, done that). My interest is the early 1950’s in the south east.
Tony Thompson said:
     "RIchard Hendrickson used to say that there were at least 9 or 10 black cars for every "billboard" one, and he suspected the ratio was even higher. (Good luck finding layouts which reflect that.) But decisive evidence is hard to find."

Tony, while I heard Richard say the same thing, I believe that the 1 billboard for every 10 black cars to be only somewhat true, and I think the answer is more complicated because we really should study what our prototypes hauled in the locales we model.  My thoughts.

1.  It depends on the LOCALE you are modeling.  A dusty branchline, such as what Jared Harper is modeling with his ATSF Alma Branch, may only see fuel oil deliveries.  These would be general service ICC-103 cars, which are typically generic black cars of 6-10K gallons (typically), although there were some colorful cars as well (Champlin Refining, Sinclair, etc).  However, a different dusty branchline may see those ICC-103s plus anhydrous ammonia deliveries, in season of course (do you model in season?).  MOST anhydrous ammonia tanks during the steam era had billboard schemes because they were leased to companies that wanted to advertise what they were selling.  At the other end of the spectrum would be southern CA mainlines in and out of the LA basin during the war, such as Cajon Pass, where dominant unit trains of fuel cars were the norm.  Many of these fuel type cars were indeed black lessee cars.  However, look closer at the other train photos - the manifest trains.  There are specialty tank cars in the mix, and many of the specialty tanks (ie not ICC-103) were painted in billboard colors.  Take the 6K chlorine tanks we've been discussing.  Like anhydrous ammonia, the owners such as hooker or diamond or Wyandotte or ? liked to advertise their "Chlorine Service" on the side.  These move the scale toward billboard cars for a mainline location away from 10 black to 1 billboard. 

2.  It depends on what ERA you are modeling.  If you are modeling the 30s/40s, I think the presence of black cars is higher simply because of the overall gross tank car fleet numbers.  I wish Tim Gilbert were still with us.  Fuel oil ICC-103 tanks were extremely common in the overall fleet percentages at this time.  GA, ACF, and a few of the smaller builders were just beginning to build specialized cars during the 30s/40s in greater numbers, such as the aforementioned 6K chlorine tanks, but once the postwar economy picked up steam, GA/ACF/NA began to produce specialized tank cars of many types in significant enough numbers for modelers to begin to pay attention.  The mid/late 40s was a tipping point toward COLORFUL schemes in my opinion.  Not 50:50 but certainly better than 10:1.  Many of the tank cars built in the later 40s and 50s seemed to have billboard schemes on them.  Additionally, all tank cars were seeing frequent repaints due to their harsh service lives.  Many of the older cars were repainted into colorful schemes as they were leased out.  I've found many examples of fresh paint on a 1940s/50s built car built 1-3 years earlier.  It has been noted on this list before that general service ICC-103 tanks became surplus after the war which probably meant the builders had to rely upon specialized tanks for revenue.  This is when you started to see more and more of these specialized tanks, such as bromine 2500 gallon tanks, heresite lined muriatic acid tanks, rubber lined acid tanks, hydrogen peroxide tanks, different flavors of insulated tanks with and without special linings, etc. 

So if you model the late 40s and early 1950s and think you only need black tanks, you may want to reconsider and do some more digging.  One great thing about tank cars is oftentimes they are in mini-"blocks" of their own of a few cars.  When I look to either side of billboard cars, usually half the time there is another billboard car next to it - not black cars on both sides.  Also, reporting marks do matter.  If it is a UTLX car, it is almost always black.  I think we all know that.  But if it is a GA-BUILT car with GATX marks, oftentimes it is billboard.    
Please speak up if you disagree with me; I have spent the better part of 5 years obsessing over tank car photos and I am amazed at the sheer number of billboard cars in service, even when I go back and look at the cars behind steam in Locomotive Quarterly for example.  And I could be wrong about the era thing.  There were many fleets of billboard cars from the teens and 20s.  Said another way, if you look at the Sinclair fleet during the 20s-30s for example, seemingly every car was painted "Sinclair" in huge, bold lettering.  If they aren't look closely at the photo.  Is the lettering there but really weathered out?  The fleet was incredibly statistically relevant, equaling 6580 cars according to the 1936 ORER.

I think billboard schemes are more common than a 10-1 ratio, especially during the 40s/50s, but I haven't been able to prove it yet.

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models 
(Who loves all-black steam era tank cars, by the way) 




Re: first use of large NYC logo

Brad Smith
 

Nice car. The commercial offering has the wrong ends also. 

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Jun 30, 2015, at 2:46 PM, Rick Jesionowski dti406@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

I did one of the experimental cars, the 50' one, the Canada Southern Site shows what lot the car came from but the picture in the NYC Color Guide is not that type of car.  I used a Branchline 50' Box but used 4-4 ends to match the picture. Here is the finished car:


Rick Jesionowski


Re: Swift SRLX 1098

brianleppert@att.net
 

I have a slide of SRLX 1099.  It has 4-4 square cornered Dreadnaught ends.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV


Re: Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Steve

I have never seen a photo of a car smaller than 11k carrying anhydrous ammonia.
Same with LPG. Chlorine is much heavier. It's also much more dangerous!

Tim O'Connor

Would Richard's "similar service" include anhydrous ammonia being carried in the same type car used for chlorine?

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Re: Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars

Tim O'Connor
 


correct -- ammonia and LPG appear to use the same types of cars. I have many
photos of 100 ton, 33,000 gallon ammonia tank cars (as well as LPG of course)



What you say about the variety in the chlorine cars makes sense.  So at 10-11 kgal, they must have used 70-ton trucks?

     No. I have a photo of a 10,500-gal. Hooker chlorine car marked "CAPY 100 000."

Tony Thompson


Re: Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars

Dave Parker
 

Can't explain that one Tony.  I assumed that the ICC 105 tank cars could withstand enough pressure to condense all (or most) of the chlorine (other than the dome space), but maybe not.  Regardless, 10,500 gallons of liquid chlorine at 60 F weighs about 123,000 lbs.  That was the basis of my comment.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: first use of large NYC logo

 

Nice. What did you use for the decal?

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of STMFC List
<STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 1:46 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: first use of large NYC logo







I did one of the experimental cars, the 50' one, the Canada Southern Site
shows what lot the car came from but the picture in the NYC Color Guide is
not that type of car. I used a Branchline 50' Box but used 4-4 ends to
match the picture. Here is the finished car:

http://s765.photobucket.com/user/dti406/media/Box%20Cars/P1010027_zpsc93c066
0.jpg.html?sort=4&o=153

Rick Jesionowski








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Tank car ratio?

Tony Thompson
 

Stan Agar wrote:

 
Can anyone help with a rough ratio of tank cars in plain black to those in other colors and also with large ‘Billboard’ lettering? I have been buying and building mostly plain-Jane black cars with just reporting marks and only a few brighter cars as that’s what seems to turn up in photos. I’m aware that location will be a factor and maybe the tendency of photographers to take pictures of colourful cars rather then the plainer ones (Been there, done that). My interest is the early 1950’s in the south east.

     RIchard Hendrickson used to say that there were at least 9 or 10 black cars for every "billboard" one, and he suspected the ratio was even higher. (Good luck finding layouts which reflect that.) But decisive evidence is hard to find.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Parker wrote:

 
What you say about the variety in the chlorine cars makes sense.  So at 10-11 kgal, they must have used 70-ton trucks?

     No. I have a photo of a 10,500-gal. Hooker chlorine car marked "CAPY 100 000."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Swift SRLX 1098

 

Looks diagonal to me. Just left of the door, you can see a low wide bump on
the roof, and left of it is a narrow one.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of STMFC List
<STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 1:34 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Swift SRLX 1098







Ted Culotta has a photo for sale on ebay showing SRLX 1098, a wood-sided
reefer with a sliding plug door. I can't make out the ends and roof very
well, but it appears to be a flat panel roof (maybe a rectangular panel
roof?). Does any one have any info on what kind of roof and ends this car
had?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon








.













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: first use of large NYC logo

Rick Jesionowski
 

I did one of the experimental cars, the 50' one, the Canada Southern Site shows what lot the car came from but the picture in the NYC Color Guide is not that type of car.  I used a Branchline 50' Box but used 4-4 ends to match the picture. Here is the finished car:


Rick Jesionowski


Re: [EXTERNAL] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Dave Parker
 

Elden:

What you say about the variety in the chlorine cars makes sense.  So at 10-11 kgal, they must have used 70-ton trucks?

Also, we were recently discussing 3 kgal cars in the context of Ethyl. Did chlorine ever go that small?

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Swift SRLX 1098

Richard Townsend
 

Ted Culotta has a photo for sale on ebay showing SRLX 1098, a wood-sided reefer with a sliding plug door. I can't make out the ends and roof very well, but it appears to be a flat panel roof (maybe a rectangular panel roof?). Does any one have any info on what kind of roof and ends this car had?
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 

 
.


Re: you say your modeling leaves something to be desired?

Douglas Harding
 

Jared, No, just a transfer. Current location is cutting the salary 33%, I can’t afford to stay. Sadly the new basement is useless for a layout, I wouldn’t but the neighbor’s dog down there. So the layout goes into storage. But there is a room upstairs that can become a model building room. So maybe I will get to that stash of Westerfield, Sunshine, etc. (necessary freight car content;)

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: [EXTERNAL] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Dave;

You are right. In the case of chlorine, there were many different users, and those desiring a small load (like maybe a small water treatment plant in my area) could get it in a 4k-6k car; those needing more could ask for a 10-11k car. Anhydrous and LPG generally traveled in the big cars.

The 105's had an interesting evolution. Different products could require thicker or thinner tanks, thus a variety of pressure designations on the sub-classes (there were also ICC 105A500, and A600), and also an aluminum version for 100, 200 and 300 psi, for various fertilizers not to be loaded in steel tanks.

The 106's were merely a variant that included multiple removable units (at 500 or 800 psi per), for things like water treatment plants in which limited storage was available at each location. Anhydrous could also be shipped in these cars.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 1:20 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars (UNCLASSIFIED)



This is out of my era, and I have not studied the ICC 105 cars in any detail. But my sense (or guess) is that anhydrous ammonia would have been carried in the larger (10 kgal and up cars); its density is just over 5 lbs per gallon. As per Richard's original comment, 6 kgal cars would make the most sense for chlorine at about 12 lbs per gallon. LPG is also "light", so would logically have been transported in the larger cars.

Or so it seems to me.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA




Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: [EXTERNAL] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Dave Parker
 

This is out of my era, and I have not studied the ICC 105 cars in any detail.  But my sense (or guess) is that anhydrous ammonia would have been carried in the larger (10 kgal and up cars); its density is just over 5 lbs per gallon.  As per Richard's original comment, 6 kgal cars would make the most sense for chlorine at about 12 lbs per gallon.  LPG is also "light", so would logically have been transported in the larger cars.

Or so it seems to me.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: [EXTERNAL] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Steve;

Anhydrous Ammonia was carried in ICC 105A300 (obsolete 8/31/56), ICC 105A300-W, ICC 105A400, and ICC 105A400-W cars, and were just like the large (10k-11k) tank cars used in chlorine service, and also LPG, and some other pressurized products. They were Steel Forge-Welded or Fusion-Welded Tank with Manway Nozzle, Insulated, Top Unloading Arrangement Required, Safety Valve (225 psi), Bottom Outlet Prohibited, Bottom Washout Prohibited. The Atlas car is, fortunately or unfortunately, the best offering in HO RTR. I have an old OVL brass model I prefer for detail. The old AHM car post-dates most interests on this list, and was used in different service. The BIG 105's are sixties creations mostly.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:10 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars



I would like to modify the anhydrous ammonia fertilizer thread a bit. In msg #107176 Richard Hendrickson stated, in part,

"... In the forseeable future, we're unlikely to get models of 3K and 4K ICC-105s or of cars with acid domes, but 6K ICC-105s were in liquid chlorine and similar service for many private owners, as well as Hooker, so RTR styrene models of those cars are certainly possible...."

I am looking for accurate tank cars that actually carried anhydrous ammonia in the eastern US in the early 50's. In Feb 2012 when Richard wrote that, the exquisite models available to us today were not yet in sight. Hopefully, the BLI 6000 gal car will join those ranks.

Would Richard's "similar service" include anhydrous ammonia being carried in the same type car used for chlorine?

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL







Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

47441 - 47460 of 182469