Date   

Re: Tank car ratio?

Cyril Durrenberger
 

A few comments on this issue:

1. It is important to determine what railroad and the location you are modeling. There was a large difference in the number and owners of tank cars that traveled over the Houston East & West Texas (HE&WT) from Houston to Shreveport and the Galveston Harrisburg and San Antonio (GH&SA) west of San Antonio. Both were part of the T&NO. A number of tank cars have historically traveled on the HE&WT to connect the oil and chemical industries with the lines that went north and east of Shreveport. Not many tank cars were sent west of San Antonio on the GH&SA line. Lists of private owner roads on these two lines show this clearly.

2. The industries located on the model railroad will make a difference in what tank cars are needed to service them. The best example is the companies that owned bulk oil plants on the line. Cars for these industries would be expected, but cars for companies not on the line would not be expected, unless they were in the bridge traffic. There may be industries on the line being modeled, but that are not included on the model railroad for which tank cars would be expected on the line. For example there may be a cottonseed oil plant on the line, but not on the model railroad, but its cars would expected to be in trains along the line. There are too many cases to articulate here and they are site specific. These are listed as examples of the sort of thing that happened.

3. I do not know about all oil companies, but a reference in a 1929 article in the Texaco Star indicated that The Texas Oil Company (aka Texaco) was repainting all of their cars hauling gasoline with the silver tank and large black lettering. Tank cars hauling heavy oil were painted black, but with the large white letters. So they repainted and relettered their old cars. So the date being modeled in important.

4. Besides the paint and lettering schemes, the date being modeled is important for other reasons. The tank car fleets were moved sometimes from owner to leaser and this could impact the paint and lettering schemes applied to the cars. Texaco is an example. There was a lot of movement in the names of the companies that owned the oil production and refining facilities. Some names disappeared and some new ones were formed, so the date is important.

5; Crude oil was shipped to refineries in some locations, but not all locations. For example crude oil was shipped from the Humble, Texas oil field for about a year after the field was discovered until pipelines were built, then shipment of crude oil from this field all but disappeared. However, there was one company that shipped by rail rather than pipeline after given special rates on the railroad by the Texas Railroad Commission. The shipping of crude oil was very dependent on the site and time period.

6. Result: It is not possible to give an overall ratio of billboard to black tank cars that will be accurate, unless one is given a specific location or locations, railroad of interest, route of interest and time period. The data on the HE&WT show that the owners of private owner tank cars over the line varied greatly from year to year, with few constant patterns This holds for all periods when tank cars were used on railroads, even today.


Cyril Durrenberger
--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 7/1/15, tangentscalemodels@yahoo.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tank car ratio?
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2015, 10:03 AM


 









---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com,
<timboconnor@...> wrote :

David Lehlbach
wrote


> I
believe that the 1 billboard for every 10 black cars to be
only somewhat true

> ... It depends on the LOCALE you are modeling.



Tim O'Connor wrote:

"I think the trend in the
postwar era was for bolder paint schemes for NEW cars
built

for private leases but wherever the older cars predominated,
you would mostly still see

plain black tank cars."

I agree somewhat.  The older cars were still
REPAINTED regularly and were probably never in original
paint by 1950.  In my collection of photos I don't
think I have a single photo of a 20s-30s tank in original
paint by 1955.  They may still be wearing a very very
similar scheme by 1955, but if you carefully read the
lettering it is clear it was repainted.  This is true for
basic black cars as well as billboard cars - billboard cars
are easy to spot since the logo and/or lettering standards
of many of the brands, take Diamond Chemical for example,
changed regularly, which makes dating photos of those cars a
relatively simple proposition. 

The 20s-30s older cars that were already in the
lease fleets were typically repainted into basic lease black
schemes because they weren't desired for captive service
lease service like the new cars were.  However, the 20s-30s
older cars that were in an existing private fleet, such as
SPX fleet cars belonging to Solvay, were repainted into
Solvay's newest image assuming they weren't sold or
scrapped.  So it is not entirely about the age of the car,
but the service it was in. 



David Lehlbach










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Re: interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Charles Peck
 

Intercolonial Railway was owned by the Canadian Govt. and became part of Canadian National.
Chuck Peck.

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 1:26 PM, 'Gatwood, Elden SAW' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/ussteel/CRA-42-110-112

Ever heard of Intercolonial Canada"?

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE



how late were "USRA" hopper s built?

D. Scott Chatfield
 

I guess it shouldn't surprise me to see a 1923 built date on that rebuilt NYC USRA cement hopper that Ben Hom posted a link to. Just how late were "USRA" twin hoppers built?

Speaking of which, when were the first offset twin hoppers built?

Thanks

Scott Chatfield


Re: "Dauphin" trucks...

Charles Peck
 

Bowser offered Dolphin tender trucks. I think they were under some Bowser  PRR tenders. 
Chuck Peck

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Jeff Ford sectioncar@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Group,


From the "Needle in a Haystack" Department:

Has anyone ever heard of Dauphin trucks?  Are any photos available?  I get the impression that they may be for heavy duty service.  To clarify, they are two-axle trucks.  The earliest Helium tank cars (3 large tanks) rode on such trucks.  

Thank you,
-Jeff Ford
Sanger, TX



Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

What do you think that SAL car is doing on the USS Gary tracks?

I love this kooky stuff...

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 1:43 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: [STMFC] interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)



I guess that is one way to add more ventilation to an SAL ventilated car.

BTW, two ahead of the Intercolonial car is a Hocking Valley box car.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 11:26 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/usste
el/CRA-42-110-112

Ever heard of Intercolonial Canada"?

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

------------------------------------
Posted by: "Gatwood, Elden SAW" <Elden.J.Gatwood@usace.army.mil>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Eric Hansmann
 

I guess that is one way to add more ventilation to an SAL ventilated car.

BTW, two ahead of the Intercolonial car is a Hocking Valley box car.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 11:26 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/usste
el/CRA-42-110-112

Ever heard of Intercolonial Canada"?

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE




------------------------------------
Posted by: "Gatwood, Elden SAW" <Elden.J.Gatwood@usace.army.mil>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Re: interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Dennis Storzek
 

Intercolonial Railway was one of the predecessors to CN.

Dennis Storzek


prototype for Pemco 53-foot flatcar?

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Pemco made a 53-foot flatcar with riveted fishbelly sides and 16 stake pockets. The thin portion of the sides above the trucks extends a bit further inboard than most designs. Does this car have a prototype? Trying to add some flatcar variety to a friend's layout.

Here's a page with pictures of the model:

http://tycotrain.tripod.com/pemcorailwaysystem/id8.html

Scott Chatfield


Re: interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

William Bryk <wmbryk@...>
 

The Intercolonial Railway served eastern Canada.  It was one of the smaller financially weak lines that became part of Canadian National Railways.

Regards,
William Bryk

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 1:26 PM, 'Gatwood, Elden SAW' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/ussteel/CRA-42-110-112

Ever heard of Intercolonial Canada"?

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE




--
William Bryk
Attorney and Counsellor-at-Law
578 74th Street
Brooklyn, New York 11209-2614
Tel/Fax: (347) 497-5972


interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/ussteel/CRA-42-110-112

Ever heard of Intercolonial Canada"?

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


"Dauphin" trucks...

Jeff Ford
 

Group,

From the "Needle in a Haystack" Department:

Has anyone ever heard of Dauphin trucks?  Are any photos available?  I get the impression that they may be for heavy duty service.  To clarify, they are two-axle trucks.  The earliest Helium tank cars (3 large tanks) rode on such trucks.  

Thank you,
-Jeff Ford
Sanger, TX


L&N coal gondola

Eric Hansmann
 

I found a side view of the L&N coal gondola that is seen in the image link Bob Witt sent along for the B&O hoppers. What an interesting beast. A 4-12 build date is in faded paint below the N.

 

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/ussteel/CRA-42-110-014

 

A quick check of a 1926 ORER garners these data points.

 

GA – Gondola, steel underframe

77250-80599

IL – 35-foot, 6-inch

IW – 9-foot, 5-inch

IH – 4-foot, 9-inch

OL – 36-foot, one-eighth inch

OW – 10-foot, 3.75-inch

OH – 8-foot, 5.25-inch

CC – 1811

100,000 pound capy

 

In service – 3329 cars

 

Another 500 have matching dimensions in the 76000-76499 series.

 

Can any L&N fans report on when these dwindled from service? I suspect most of these cars were gone by the mid-1930s.

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

 

 

 


Re: N&W box car trucks identification needed !

Greg Martin
 

And that is not the truck I was thinking of either.... Dang, if I were better at trucks I would know what it is.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 7/1/2015 9:43:13 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Rich Orr wrote:
"Are you thinking these are Elsey trucks PRR class 2DF17?  They were applied to 75 X38."
 
No.  Not even close.  See my previous post.
 
 
Ben Hom


Re: N&W box car trucks identification needed !

Greg Martin
 

Rich,
 
Yes, I found a photo of the Elsey Trucks on an X38 #73863. Interesting truck as well. I am in the process of bashing a Life Like car to create the correct X38, it is a lot of work.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 7/1/2015 8:50:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Greg,

Are you thinking these are Elsey trucks PRR class 2DF17?  They were applied to 75 X38.

Rich Orr


Tim,
I can't recall the truck name but I have seen it before. I was thinking on  PRR X38 but I haven't came up with the photo.
Okay did anyone notice the ten rung ladders?
Greg Martin  
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
I


Re: N&W box car trucks identification needed !

Benjamin Hom
 

Rich Orr wrote:
"Are you thinking these are Elsey trucks PRR class 2DF17?  They were applied to 75 X38."
 
No.  Not even close.  See my previous post.
 
 
Ben Hom


Re: Help with NYC and B&O Rebuilt Covered Hoppers

rwitt_2000
 

Here's is a link to the US Steel Collection at IU-Northwest Library to a picture of as built N-13 hoppers seemingly on their first revenue run from the Kentucky coal fields. Most of the N-13 were built between 1916 and 1917.

U.S. Steel Photograph Collection -- Coke Plant. 1st Car of Coal from Corp.'s New Mine in Kentucky

 

The dimensions of the B&O's previous class N-12s and the N-13s were very similar with the main difference being the N-13 was a foot longer (IL). For modeling you may consider starting with a F&C N-12 kit, but you would have to remove the entire interior. A cheaper option would be to start with a USRA model also removing the interior, scratch building a new interior with covered hopper bays and modifying the end sills and changing the slope sheet rivets.


This was a restored N-13 in the B&O Museum Collection, but currently it is not listed on their site.


here's one from the B&O Yahoo Group. I hope the link works, but you may have to be a member.


Baltimore and Ohio Railroad List




Bob Witt


Re: N&W box car trucks identification needed !

SUVCWORR@...
 

Greg,

Are you thinking these are Elsey trucks PRR class 2DF17?  They were applied to 75 X38.

Rich Orr


Tim,
 
I can't recall the truck name but I have seen it before. I was thinking on  PRR X38 but I haven't came up with the photo.
 
Okay did anyone notice the ten rung ladders?
 
Greg Martin  
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
I


Re: Help with NYC and B&O Rebuilt Covered Hoppers

rwitt_2000
 

John Golden asked:

Second is B&O 630120. The car appears to be stenciled N-35 with a few letters after the numbers. At first glance this car appears to be a former USRA hopper but upon further review I don't think it was. The car has with replacement discharge pockets/outlets, a peaked roof, side ladders (not grabs), four loading hatches on each side of the roof, a protruding end sill, and Andrews trucks as identifying features.

This covered hopper is a class N-25b consisting of 74 cars rebuilt in 1936 from former N-13 open-top hoppers and placed in series 630104 to 630177 The B&O needed additional covered hoppers in the 1930s and had already rebuilt numerous N-13 into covered hoppers placed in class N-25 and N-25a. The first two classes used the original slope sheets, but for the class N-25b the interiors were totally rebuilt to the specifications used for the typical "cement" covered hopper.  This class can be spotted in photos by noticing a second line of rivets defining the steeper slope sheet angle

The original N-13 were somewhat unique hoppers that had longitudinal bays dumping to the outside of the rails and steeper slope sheets suitable for coke loading. A total of 9,000 were built and ~3,000 served on the Sandy Valley & Elkhorn, the isolated B&O coal line in eastern Kentucky.


Note the additional lettering may designate that the car is in company sand service, but this is speculation.

This is a start as much more can be written about these cars and why they were built.

Regards,

Bob Witt


Re: Tank car ratio?

Tangent Scale Models
 

---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote :

David Lehlbach wrote

> I believe that the 1 billboard for every 10 black cars to be only somewhat true
> ... It depends on the LOCALE you are modeling.

Tim O'Connor wrote:

"I think the trend in the postwar era was for bolder paint schemes for NEW cars built
for private leases but wherever the older cars predominated, you would mostly still see
plain black tank cars."

I agree somewhat.  The older cars were still REPAINTED regularly and were probably never in original paint by 1950.  In my collection of photos I don't think I have a single photo of a 20s-30s tank in original paint by 1955.  They may still be wearing a very very similar scheme by 1955, but if you carefully read the lettering it is clear it was repainted.  This is true for basic black cars as well as billboard cars - billboard cars are easy to spot since the logo and/or lettering standards of many of the brands, take Diamond Chemical for example, changed regularly, which makes dating photos of those cars a relatively simple proposition. 

The 20s-30s older cars that were already in the lease fleets were typically repainted into basic lease black schemes because they weren't desired for captive service lease service like the new cars were.  However, the 20s-30s older cars that were in an existing private fleet, such as SPX fleet cars belonging to Solvay, were repainted into Solvay's newest image assuming they weren't sold or scrapped.  So it is not entirely about the age of the car, but the service it was in. 

David Lehlbach


Re: Tank car ratio?

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

Let's not forget that you also need to consider the on layout
industries ...

If your layout has an oil field that is still shipping crude by rail -
that location is going to receive/ship differently marked tank
cars and tank car types than if all of the layout industries are
"oil dealers" or "Hercules Powder".
The number of cars moved on the layout to/from those
industries should "reflect" believable traffic demands/levels -
including cars that are coming in from/going out to staging.

Thru train tank car traffic is "specific to the region and era"
you are trying to represent and will be seen coming from and
going to staging without making a trip to an on layout industry.

Unless, of course, you are modeling a branchline in which
case there wouldn't be any "thru traffic" (not only for tank
cars but for all car types) ... and the car types for a branchline
would correlate very closely with the "demands" (needs) of
the industries served "on layout". But even then there
would/could be the occasional "substitution" of one car
type for another. Or the "experimental" car type that is
just being introduced to the industry for the era your
layout represents ... such as a mix of both box cars (grain
doors and markings) and early covered hoppers to an on
layout grain mill.
But it is unlikely that an "auto box" would be used in
grain service ... or a "general service tank" in corn syrup
service. *G*.

Finally - it only takes a little bit of research to establish
which service type cars (tanks and others) would have
been "likely" in the ERA you are modeling. For example,
in the paragraph above I mentioned corn syrup tanks ...
which have a very specific "era" component to their
existence.
- Jim B.

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