Date   

Landing Ship Trains

Todd Horton
 

Good photos of unloading cars from a ship onto Normandy.



https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/did-you-know-they-landed-train
s-in-normandy-too.html



Todd Horton

Southeast Machine Tool Sales

3123 Maple Rd.

Lindale Ga 30147

678-264-7448 CELL

706-232-7563 FAX

thorton@...



southeastmachine.co



Buying and selling new, and used machine shop equipment.



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Re: New Walther's cars?

Tim O'Connor
 

Bill Welch posted

   > http://aws.walthers.com/July2015Flyer.pdf

Impeccable research, as always, by Walthers --

CNW 23018, 23574 -- built 1956 with long sills (not tabs)
NYC 167001, 167007 -- ok
NH 33505, 33506 -- built 1947 (ok) with 7 foot doors (oops)
N&W 53522, 53538 -- built 1954 with 8 foot doors
SAL 25255, 25250 -- built 1954 with 8 foot doors
UP 100001, 100003 -- ok but never seen one repainted in this scheme

Hey two out of 6 ain't bad for Walthers !!

Tim O'Connor


Re: New Walther's cars?

Bill Welch
 


Re: NYC wood sheathed boxcar with Bettendorf T section trucks.

riverman_vt@...
 

   The NYC seems to have been an early heavy user of Bettendorf T section trucks. Was there not 
also a later version of the trucks that appeared in the mid to late teens? In any case, it was not only
the NYC on which they found favor but many, many NYC controlled or affiliated roads. The Boston
& Albany used them and almost all box cars purchased by the Rutland in the 1920's were equipped
with them when new. They could also be seen under B&A and Rutland cabeese.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: New Walther's cars?

Ed Hawkins
 

On Jul 2, 2015, at 4:52 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:

No photos, so who knows what it will look like, or what road names they will
offer. Correct road names could be ATSF, CGW, CMO, C&O, KCS, LSBC, LV, MEC,
MSC, NH? (not sure about NH, since they also had 10'0" cars), NYC, P&WV, RI,
SAL, UP.
Tim and Jeff,
And some of the above PS-1 box cars had Pullman welded roofs, which had distinctively different seam caps.
Regard,
Ed Hawkins


Re: interesting NYC wood sheathed boxcar

Tim O'Connor
 


Definitely look like Vulcans to me, too.

Tim O'



Scott Chatfield wrote:

 

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-238717.jpg

What surprised me most here are the T-section Bettendorfs under such a car, which I assume was built with archbars.

     First of all, I would say they look more like L-section trucks to me. And I am not sure they are not Vulcans.

Tony Thompson


Re: General tank car discussion

Tony Thompson
 

Excellent summary, Elden. Just would like to clarify a few points.

Elden Gatwood wrote:

 

In 1927, the ICC takes over tank car specs and transforms ARA III into Class "ICC-103". Ditto on the stencils.


     In fact, cars built under specifications such as ARA III continued to carry that notation throughout their lives, for beyond 1927, even when repainted. Elden is correct, of course, that after 1927 any NEW cars were stenciled ICC 103, though the specification itself was the same as the ARA one

Dome sizes were supposed to be 2% of the capacity of the tank, for 103's but in some early cases, were much larger. This seems to have been customer-specified, and not a general application. 


     The specification called for a MINIMUM expansion dome size of 2%, but a customer could choose more.

103's generally (all) had a bottom outlet/clean-out, and this is also a give-away when confused.


      Only if they were a TM. Acid cars of 103 specification were AAR class TA, and did NOT have bottom outlets. Also keep in mind that dome appliances, including platforms and walkways, were a customer choice and could vary quite widely.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: New Walther's cars?

Tim O'Connor
 

Jeff Aley wrote

 > There�s an early 40� PS-1 (different from the Kadee and IMRC): 910-2350

Jeff

No photos, so who knows what it will look like, or what road names they will
offer. Correct road names could be ATSF, CGW, CMO, C&O, KCS, LSBC, LV, MEC,
MSC, NH? (not sure about NH, since they also had 10'0" cars), NYC, P&WV, RI,
SAL, UP.

With that many roads one has to wonder WHY has Kadee never offered the car?
Well, the reason is that Kadee sweats over really minor differences in the
prototype cars ... differences that most of us could easily alter ! There
were definitely underframe differences between the pre-1950 PS-1 and all
later PS-1 cars, but most modelers seem not to care much about underframes.
And doors too -- Kadee REALLY cares about doors! :-) (No joke, actually)

Tim O'Connor


Re: interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Brad Andonian
 

Touché. Missed that!

Brad andonian



At Jul 2, 2015, 2:25:47 PM, destorzek@... [STMFC] wrote:




---In STMFC@..., wrote :

looks like a palace poultry car to me!

Brad Andonian
===========

Except you can read the SAL reporting marks on the end, which leads me to suspect it is a common ventilator boxcar (watermelon car).

Dennis Storzek


Re: Tank car ratio?

Tony Thompson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

 

Didn't the silver Texaco billboard lettering disappear when UTLX took over their fleet?


     No, on two counts. First, the fleet was sold about 1935 to GATX, not UTLX. Second, both the TCX reporting marks and the billboard TEXACO lettering continued to be applied (mostly to black cars) for at least 10 years afterward. If you look in a 1950s ORER, you will see the TCX cars separately listed within the GATX entry.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Charles Peck
 

Bob, from drawings I have seen there was commonly a double overlapping layer with drainage grooves to
divert leakage out to the side of the car.  Also, wet wood swells, that being how a barrel is sealed. 
But it was enough of a problem to inspire many many patented roof systems. 
Chuck Peck in sunny Florida

On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 3:45 PM, rwitt_2000@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

My guess is their doing one side at-a-time. There seems to be a piece of new lumber at the far end maybe getting ready to cut a sample board. Notice that the roof boards butt against the center of the roof line. I am not sure how this was all made water proof.

Elden, looking at many photos over the years of "car repair facilities" in our era it seems much of the work was done outside and farther north than I would have guessed.

Bob Witt



Re: interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <cereshill@...> wrote :

looks like a palace poultry car to me!

Brad Andonian
===========

Except you can read the SAL reporting marks on the end, which leads me to suspect it is a common ventilator boxcar (watermelon car).

Dennis Storzek


Re: interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Brad Andonian
 

looks like a palace poultry car to me!

Brad Andonian



On Thursday, July 2, 2015 10:38 AM, "destorzek@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
What was most interesting to me is they are renewing the entire roof of a foreign road car... and apparently don't intend to do more than patch the running board, since they've loosened the complete running board assembly and moved it to the side.

U.S. Steel Photograph Collection -- Car from Above
  Dennis Storzek



Re: Tank car ratio?

Tim O'Connor
 

no idea -- but all of my photos of silver or billboard Texaco cars are
from the 1930's or earlier -- the TCX reporting marks continued to be used
on tank cars into the 1970's at least but they are all plain black cars

Tim,

Didn't the silver Texaco billboard lettering disappear when UTLX took over their fleet?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


General tank car discussion (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Hey groups;

I have been asked by a couple individuals to put some of the info I put together out there to group members, and maybe save you some time in your fleet development. Also, to keep this discussion going. And maybe fill in some info to those for whom this is an introduction. I was helped out with many details by Richard Hendrickson, on the pre-1949 fleet, although my interests and research went into the sixties and beyond.

First, I agree with all the follow-on discussion RE: location, location, location; era, era, era. Everything about what you looked at depended on where and when you looked. I will not talk much to pre-WW I, so here goes...

Here are the generalities (let's not squabble over "exactitude" here, this is just meant to frame the tank car discussion):

Cars built to ARA 1917 are labeled (for example) "ARA III" (note the "three" carries over below). This is stenciled in small letters on the right end of each side of the tank for those class III cars built under ARA oversight.

In 1927, the ICC takes over tank car specs and transforms ARA III into Class "ICC-103". Ditto on the stencils.

Tank capacities (gallons) are generally stenciled on the end of the tank. Multi-compartment cars generally got stencils for each compartment on the sides of the domes. "Capacity" refers to weight, not volume.

In this early era, insulated cars, which are developing, become ARA IV, then "ICC-104"

Insulated high-pressure tanks then become "ICC-105"

ICC-106 are multi-tank removable high-pressure tank... cars.

Suffixes to the above refer to welded ("W"), Nickle ("N"), etc.

You also have ARA "Types":
TA - Acid Car
TG - Glass-Lined
TL - Lined (other than glass) [mostly rubber or nickel linings in early periods]
TM - Conventional
TMU - Multiple Unit Tank
TP - High-Pressure
TR - Aluminum Tank
TW - Wooden Tank

So, let's start with the most common tank car in most folks' time of interest:

Riveted (ICC-103), or Welded (103-W)
Insulated or Non-Insulated
General Service - Oil, Caustic Soda
2% Dome
2 Valves + Vent

This is the car you see everywhere. They hauled most everything that wouldn't eat through the tank. These include the "Van Dyke" (As an ARA III, it really was a 103) Type X, "Type 11", "Type 21", "Type 27" (AC&F designs by year of design), numerous GATC classes, the very numerous UTLX "X3" (103), and many cars built by minority and absorbed builders like PTCC, STCC, NACC, and others. Builders were also stenciled on the tank. Tanks didn't always end up on the as-built underframe...

The tanks themselves evolved greatly. Early cars had radial courses, where the joint/rivet lines run around the tank. These gave way to 4-course longitudinal sheets, then by the Type 27, to 3-course longitudinal sheets, then post-war, welded tanks. Insulated cars disguised the tank, and came in many "courses" that had only to do with the jacketing. Hold-downs/tank bands varied greatly over time, and by builder. These are often a give-away as to builder and timeframe.

AC&F underframes are generally recognized by their "stub" sill construction, which does not run the length of the running boards, but ends at the bolsters. Early ones have riveted components, late ones are welded. GATC had a different sill arrangement with no significant thicker end sill, but a bolster extension that included an ovaloid pocket, and double stirrup steps as an ID hint. This changed later. NATX bought many cars from AC&F. UTLX had their own very unique designs, that included an ACF-like sill, but in the time of the X-3's, had an extended end sill arrangement with wooden decks beyond the end of the tank, poling pockets, and other unique UTLX details, like having the commodity boards and defect boards mounted on square steel panels. Many UTLX cars also had an arrangement of the triple valve above the air reservoir, on one side of the car. Some had a single ladder and dome platform on only one side. These four owner/sometimes builder (AC&F built cars that their lessor SHPX leased) had the vast majority of cars in this era under their control.

Dome vents & valves also evolved over time. Early cars like the Type 11 had vents on elbows off the sides of the dome, later ones almost always utilized the dome top. Dome sizes were supposed to be 2% of the capacity of the tank, for 103's but in some early cases, were much larger. This seems to have been customer-specified, and not a general application. No 103 I have ever seen had a dome smaller than 2% in the timeframe we are interested in.

103's generally (all) had a bottom outlet/clean-out, and this is also a give-away when confused.

Models in HO include LifeLike/Walthers P2K Type 21's, Intermountain Type 27's, and Red Caboose post-war welded 103, plus the drop-dead gorgeous Tangent 6k 3-compartment "Type 30" General American car. That car pretty much puts all others to shame. You also need these cars even if you don't think so. Probably more than one. 3-compartment cars were not only used to ship different commodities (like say weights of oil, lubricants), but also were used in shipping crankcase oil to loco facilities in many locations, where the two outside compartments contained "new" oil, and the return ride hosted "used" oil in the center compartment, for recycling.

There have been a limited number of brass cars, most from Overland, including an ACF insulated 103 without platforms, an ACF insulated with platforms, a GATC insulated car, a UTLX 10k Type X-3, and an odd insulated 103 with platforms and a kind of stepped railing around the dome only found on one or two lessees cars, like Schenectady and Wyandotte. Then, there are some brass cars that are just wrong.

There are also some really nice resin car offerings, like those from Southern Car, the challenging OOP Sunshine fleet, and including a Type 11, and the very odd 20k ARA III 3-compartment coal tar car bought by J&L Steel, offered by Funaro & Camerlengo. A number of folks on this list have built them, so ask away.


This should get a few of you started. There are literally hundreds of photos to look at on-line. If you are interested in the topic, start looking. The Fallen Flags site is a great start.

I hope everyone has a great 4th, and if any of you are interested in continuing with additional classes and such, let me know.

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

rwitt_2000
 

My guess is their doing one side at-a-time. There seems to be a piece of new lumber at the far end maybe getting ready to cut a sample board. Notice that the roof boards butt against the center of the roof line. I am not sure how this was all made water proof.

Elden, looking at many photos over the years of "car repair facilities" in our era it seems much of the work was done outside and farther north than I would have guessed.

Bob Witt


Re: interesting NYC wood sheathed boxcar

Tony Thompson
 

Scott Chatfield wrote:

 

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-238717.jpg

What surprised me most here are the T-section Bettendorfs under such a car, which I assume was built with archbars. 


     First of all, I would say they look more like L-section trucks to me. And I am not sure they are not Vulcans.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: interesting NYC wood sheathed boxcar

destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <blindog@...> wrote :

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-238717.jpg

What surprised me most here are the T-section Bettendorfs under such a car, which I assume was built with archbars
==========
Scott, the original Bettendorf "T" section truck dates to 1904, and are illustrated in the 1906 Car Builder's Dictionary. SOMEBODY must have been buying them.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Why did this L&N car that it needed a huge fishbelly frame?

rwitt_2000
 

FWIW in the book "History of the Louisville & Nashville Railroad" by Maury Klein on page 405, he writes that the a subsidiary of US Steel [not named] opened its new mine in eastern Kentucky in September 1917 and shipped its first car of coal two months later. That date of November 1917 corresponds with the caption in the photo. The locations for the railroad were Benham and Lynch, Kentucky with the coal fields at the headwaters of Looney Creek.

Bob Witt


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: interesting cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

destorzek@...
 

Why not on a RIP track (RIP stands for Repair In Place). Lots of re=sheathing and other work done on RIP tracks.

Dennis Storzek

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