Date   

Re: [bbfcl] General tank car discussion pt 4 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Charles Peck
 

Thank you so much. You are filling HUGE holes in my tank car education, things I did not
know that I did not know.  One question; were the wooden pickle cars considered tank cars and did
they fit into some classification?  Hirsch Bros. who were or became Paramount had a location
in Louisville KY so I saw some at times. One was given to the Kentucky Railway Museum but
I understand that the residue of the brine caused it to self-destruct in time.
Chuck Peck

On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:16 PM, David Sieber ealabhan0@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Eldon,
     Please, continue with whatever else you have on additional tank car classes.  I - and doubtless others - am saving these to be my one go-to reference on tank car basics.  Although, you can certainly go into as much detail as you wish; e.g., the differences between ICC 103 hazardous vs 203 nonflammable/food grade tank appliances, etc.  Extremely useful and valuable information; wish I'd been at your WPM clinic several years ago.
Thanks, Dave Sieber, Reno NV 

To: bbfcl@...; STMFC@...
From: bbfcl@...
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 20:17:39 +0000
Subject: [bbfcl] General tank car discussion pt 4 (UNCLASSIFIED)
[snip] 
There are also the ARA classes which I left out detailed discussion of, but are important to understand how things were being constructed prior to 1927 (and 1917). Also the so-called "War Emergency" cars of WW2. Are any of you interested by this point?

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE



Re: [bbfcl] General tank car discussion pt 4 (UNCLASSIFIED)

David Sieber
 

Eldon,
     Please, continue with whatever else you have on additional tank car classes.  I - and doubtless others - am saving these to be my one go-to reference on tank car basics.  Although, you can certainly go into as much detail as you wish; e.g., the differences between ICC 103 hazardous vs 203 nonflammable/food grade tank appliances, etc.  Extremely useful and valuable information; wish I'd been at your WPM clinic several years ago.
Thanks, Dave Sieber, Reno NV 

To: bbfcl@...; STMFC@...
From: bbfcl@...
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 20:17:39 +0000
Subject: [bbfcl] General tank car discussion pt 4 (UNCLASSIFIED)
[snip] 
There are also the ARA classes which I left out detailed discussion of, but are important to understand how things were being constructed prior to 1927 (and 1917). Also the so-called "War Emergency" cars of WW2. Are any of you interested by this point?

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: General tank car discussion pt 4 (UNCLASSIFIED)

James E Kubanick
 

Yes, Heinz did roster a few of these car but I don't know how many. When I worked at the Heinz plant in Pittsburgh in the early'60's, they would still occasionally show up there.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV



On Monday, July 6, 2015 4:21 PM, "'Gatwood, Elden SAW' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Groups;

On to the ICC106 to 108:

ICC 106A500 (obsolete 12/19/64), ICC 106A800 (obsolete 12/19/64): Chlorine, Anhydrous Ammonia, Sulfur Dioxide, Hydrogen Sulfide (A800)
Multiple Unit with Removable Steel Forge-Welded Tanks Mounted on Underframe
Each Tank Approximately One Ton Capacity
Each Tank Equipped with Loading and Discharge Valves and Safety Vent or Vent Set for Pressure Not Exceeding 375 psi (500) or 600 psi (800)

Yes, this is that MTS brass flat car with removable tanks. There were not that many of them. I have seen them in Penn Salt, Diamond, and maybe 3 other schemes in photos (Niagara?). I understand many of them were used servicing water treatment plants. Nice car; too bad we have no decals.....

ICC 107A****: Helium, Hydrogen, Oxygen
Multiple Unit Seamless Steel Tanks Mounted on Underframe
Marking **** is Dependent on Test Pressure of Tanks

This is the "Helium" car. There have been several discussions on this on-list.

ICC 108 (obsolete 8/31/56), ICC 108A (obsolete 8/31/56): Hydrochloric Acid, Vinegar
Tank Car Having Wooden Stave Metal-Hooped Tanks
Tanks Must be Interior-Lined, Coated or Treated to Withstand Action of Hydrochloric Acid
Wooden Tanks Must not Have Side or Bottom Openings

And this, then, is the so-called "vinegar" car. Standard brands had some, as well as others; maybe Heinz?. The Sunshine car models this class.

None of these classes were all that numerous, and if you are modeling many locations, you would never have seen them. These may be the ones most of you can avoid.

There are also the ARA classes which I left out detailed discussion of, but are important to understand how things were being constructed prior to 1927 (and 1917). Also the so-called "War Emergency" cars of WW2. Are any of you interested by this point?

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE




General tank car discussion pt 4 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Groups;

On to the ICC106 to 108:

ICC 106A500 (obsolete 12/19/64), ICC 106A800 (obsolete 12/19/64): Chlorine, Anhydrous Ammonia, Sulfur Dioxide, Hydrogen Sulfide (A800)
Multiple Unit with Removable Steel Forge-Welded Tanks Mounted on Underframe
Each Tank Approximately One Ton Capacity
Each Tank Equipped with Loading and Discharge Valves and Safety Vent or Vent Set for Pressure Not Exceeding 375 psi (500) or 600 psi (800)

Yes, this is that MTS brass flat car with removable tanks. There were not that many of them. I have seen them in Penn Salt, Diamond, and maybe 3 other schemes in photos (Niagara?). I understand many of them were used servicing water treatment plants. Nice car; too bad we have no decals.....

ICC 107A****: Helium, Hydrogen, Oxygen
Multiple Unit Seamless Steel Tanks Mounted on Underframe
Marking **** is Dependent on Test Pressure of Tanks

This is the "Helium" car. There have been several discussions on this on-list.

ICC 108 (obsolete 8/31/56), ICC 108A (obsolete 8/31/56): Hydrochloric Acid, Vinegar
Tank Car Having Wooden Stave Metal-Hooped Tanks
Tanks Must be Interior-Lined, Coated or Treated to Withstand Action of Hydrochloric Acid
Wooden Tanks Must not Have Side or Bottom Openings

And this, then, is the so-called "vinegar" car. Standard brands had some, as well as others; maybe Heinz?. The Sunshine car models this class.

None of these classes were all that numerous, and if you are modeling many locations, you would never have seen them. These may be the ones most of you can avoid.

There are also the ARA classes which I left out detailed discussion of, but are important to understand how things were being constructed prior to 1927 (and 1917). Also the so-called "War Emergency" cars of WW2. Are any of you interested by this point?

Elden Gatwood




Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: RE: General tank car discussion pt 3 (UNCLASSIFIED)

mwbauers
 

In general, this type of information is hard to come by. 

I would like to see pointers to related books or on-line sources for the range of RR cars.

If that doesn’t exist, it’s my hope that this group will compile what appears in the posting as data file saves for easier discovery by modelers that missed the then past posts.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jul 6, 2015, at 11:17 AM, 'Gatwood, Elden  wrote:

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Mike;

Other cars types, for example being?

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message——
Mike Bauers….
When this series of very informative postings is done, could someone gather them and install them in the group data files?

Is there a publication or website that has this information across other car types?


White Dome Housings on ACF ICC-105A Tank Cars (1947 to early 1950s)

Ed Hawkins
 

Group,
Starting in 1947 and continuing to about 1953, a high percentage of ACF-built large-capacity ICC-105A tank cars (i.e., 10,500 & 11,000 gallons for propane or anhydrous ammonia) had white dome housings on cars otherwise painted black or other colors. This was not found on similar cars built 1946 and before.

Warren (WRNX) cars with green dome housings were exceptions as were a relatively few other cars that received dome housings painted black, aluminum, or other colors. I have not found white dome housings to be used by other tank car builders during this time. Guy Wilbur has researched A.A.R. records and found no requirements for white dome housings.

Does anyone know the significance or reason for the white dome housings?

Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


ADMIN: Re: One could model this car, but

Mikebrock
 

Mike Bauers writes:

"Modeling what had been planned is as fun as modeling what was built."

Perhaps. However, that is not within the objectives of the STMFC. Note the first statement regarding the group's objectives:

"The objectives include the sharing of
information about North American, standard gauge railroad freight cars in
the period 1900-1960 inclusive..." and "Emphasis is to
be placed on the study of the prototype with
a goal of producing models of them with as great a degree of accuracy as
possible."

Note that the objectives include the study and modeling of actual freight cars, real prototypes, not proposed freight cars.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: RE: General tank car discussion pt 3 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Mike;

Other cars types, for example being?

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 11:02 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] RE: General tank car discussion pt 3 (UNCLASSIFIED)



When this series of very informative postings is done, could someone gather them and install them in the group data files?

Is there a publication or website that has this information across other car types?

Mike Bauers
On Jul 6, 2015, at 9:35 AM, "'Gatwood, Elden > wrote:


More to come....

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: "Dauphin" trucks...

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 7/6/2015 1:00 AM, Jeff Ford sectioncar@... [STMFC] wrote:
spelled it "Dauphin."

    It's a name for the almost king of France in the early days.  A Penn thing and as below;

The Dauphin of France (French: Dauphin de France, IPA: [dofɛ̃])—strictly The Dauphin of Viennois (Dauphin de Viennois)—was the title given to the heir apparent to the throne of France from 1350 to 1791 and 1824 to 1830. The word is French for dolphin, as a reference to the depiction of the animal on their coat of arms.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: General tank car discussion pt 3 (UNCLASSIFIED)

mwbauers
 

When this series of very informative postings is done, could someone gather them and install them in the group data files?

Is there a publication or website that has this information across other car types?


Mike Bauers

On Jul 6, 2015, at 9:35 AM, "'Gatwood, Elden > wrote:


More to come....

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: One could model this car, but

mwbauers
 

On the other hand.....

Although it's regarding passengers cars, there are a few pictures of some few proposed cars that didn't make it into production for the Milwaukee Road Hiawatha.

Those are on my Bucket List for modeling and operating in HO.

Modeling what had been planned is as fun as modeling what was built.

On the locomotive front the demonstration displays of the proposed and not built Hiawatha streamlined 4-4-4's previous to deciding upon the 4-4-2's are equally as tempting to model.

Running below the surface in my mind is the vision of how shocked some people would be to see that engine pulling a Hiawatha with those cars in the train.

That alone would make it worthwhile to build the models,

I think I'd bring along copies of the pictures to prove that they did exist in some manner.

After models like The Piker and The Peanut car from Walthers, I wouldn't be surprised at anything they put on the market.

I noticed that they came out with the correct 4-truck depressed center flat car that P&H Mining Product uses.

But they numbered it for a different make car than they produced. A car in the fleet that instead of using the four two axle trucks they modeled, uses two four wheel and two six wheel trucks with a cast bed dropped flat car bridge instead of the welded drop center flat car bridge they modeled.

Right car..... Wrong ID or markings.... And the P&H car fleet is home based just 20 minutes drive away from them.

Mike Bauers


On Jul 6, 2015, at 12:02 AM, "Tony Thompson wrote:

 

Charlie Vlk wrote:

 
I also once considered destroying  CB&Q prints of airbrushed negatives showing a XM32 box in proposed "National Park Line" script slogan and a NE 12 Waycar with funky picture windows.

     Well said, Charlie, and you are right, that was exactly the kind of thing Richard was horrified by.


Re: General tank car discussion pt 3 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


I am still glad some of you are interested in this subject (although I imagine many are yawning off at this point), and having finished with pretty much the remainder of 103's, here goes part 3, the 104's and 105's:

ICC 104/104-W (obsoleted 1964): Ethyl Ether; Casinghead Gasoline, Refined Vegetable Oils
Steel Riveted or Fusion-Welded
Insulated
2% Dome
Safety Valves (35 psi) or Safety Vent (45 psi)

104's were not all that common, as they were made for some pretty specific commodities at a time when tank cars were evolving quickly. I don't know of any specific models of them, but there are some insulated 2% dome cars that one could modify, if one wanted to.

ICC105A100/100-W (obsolete 12/19/64): Ethylene Oxide; Liquified Petroleum Gas (V.P. not Exceeding 75 psi @ 105 deg. F); Liquified Hydrocarbon Gas (V.P. not Exceeding 75 psi @ 105 deg.F)
Steel Riveted or Fusion-Welded with Manway Nozzle
Insulated
Top Unloading Arrangement Required
Safety Valve (75 psi)
Bottom Outlet Prohibited
Bottom Washout Prohibited

ICC 105A200-F, ICC 105A200-W: Sulfur Dioxide, Vinyl Chloride, Liquefied Petroleum Gas
Converted Higher Pressure Forge-Welded or Fusion-Welded Tank
Steel Forge-Welded Tank with Manway Nozzle
Insulated
Top Unloading Arrangement Required
Safety Valve (150 psi)
Bottom Outlet Prohibited
Bottom Washout Prohibited

ICC 105A300, (obsolete 8/31/56), ICC 105A300-W, ICC 105A400, ICC 105A400-W: Anhydrous Hydrofluoric Acid, Anhydrous Ammonia, Metallic Sodium, Chlorine, Liquefied Petroleum Gas, Liquefied Hydrocarbon Gas Motor Fuel Anti-Knock Compound, Vinyl Chloride
Steel Forge-Welded or Fusion-Welded Tank with Manway Nozzle
Insulated
Top Unloading Arrangement Required
Safety Valve (225 psi)
Bottom Outlet Prohibited
Bottom Washout Prohibited

ICC 105A500 (obsolete 8/31/56), ICC 105A500-W, ICC 105A600 (obsolete 8/31/56), ICC 105A600-W: Chlorine, Carbon Dioxide, Anhydrous Hydrofluoric Acid, Liquified Petroleum Gas,
Liquified Hydrocarbon Gas
Steel Forge-Welded or Fusion-Welded Tank with Manway Nozzle
Insulated
Top Unloading Arrangement Required
Safety Valve (375 psi) (350 psi on Carbon Dioxide Cars)
Bottom Outlet Prohibited/Washout Prohibited

ICC 105A100AL-W, ICC 105A200AL-W, ICC 105A300AL-W: Fertilizer Ammoniating Solution (Ammonium Nitrate Solution) (V.P. not Exceeding 75 psi @ 105 deg. F), Nitrogen Fertilizer Solution (Ammonium Nitrate Solution)
Aluminum Fusion-Welded Tank with Manway Nozzle
Insulated
Top Unloading Arrangement Required
Safety Valve (75 psi)
Bottom Outlet Prohibited
Bottom Washout Prohibited

So, note now the many 105's you could get. The ID on these cars is in the small writing on the right side of each tank side, and it takes sharp eyes! They progressively get stronger and stronger (thicker as well) steel (or aluminum) tanks, with progressively higher pressure capability, depending on the commodity. The "dome" is not a dome, it is a valve casing for the inlet, outlet, and safety valves. This is what the Athearn "chemical" tank was supposed to be. They ranged from a tiny 4k car, IIRC, to cars of 11k capacity (but not really), and later, by the sixties, some huge monsters like the "Rail Whale" and others. This became the second most numerous class of tank cars in time.

Model options: the Atlas 11K 6-course 105A300 car for LPG and anhydrous ammonia service, which seems to be a disappointment to some, plus perhaps the Trix 6K 105 for chlorine to those water treatment plants (maybe supplemented by the upcoming BLI car?). For post-fifties models, there is the old AHM offering (a GATC 105A300-W), but with badly needed upgrades, which models a rather uncommon car used by folks like Domino Sugar, of all people. There are also several OVL brass cars that tried to render a 105. One 7-course 11k car is pretty good, but there is another ~8k 5-course car that has no real prototype, sad to say.

More to come....

Elden Gatwood


Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Triple Valve Questions

Dennis Storzek
 

Dave,

You also need to figure in the "brake pipe propagation rate", the amount of time it takes the change in pressure to reach all the cars in the train. For a service application, it is generally accepted that this is 0.1 seconds per car, so the brakes on the last car of a hundred car train don't begin to apply until ten seconds after the first cars do. This is with the help of "quick acting" control valves, which vent the train pipe locally as they sense an application, thus speeding the propagation down the train. Until very recently, the propagation rate of a release would have been much slower; the first cars drawing air to replenish their reservoirs tending to slow the pressure increase to cars further back in the train. Modern control valves have an accelerated release feature that vents air from the emergency reservoir into the train pipe to counteract this.

While looking to get a hard and fast figure for the propagation rate, I ran into what I think is the best explanation of steam and transition era brake equipments I've ever seen, the Air Brake & Train Handling Manual published by Railtown 1897 State Historic Park, the operating unit of the California State Railway Museum at Jamestown, CA. It is available as a downloadable PDF file here:

http://railtown.team.parks.ca.gov/volunteers/Document%20Library20/1/ABTH%20Manual%20Railtown.pdf

And should be required reading for everyone on this list.

Dennis Storzek


Re: "Dauphin" trucks...

Jeff Ford
 

Thanks fellas.  I was puzzled by the spelling; no wonder I couldn't find anything.  In my defense, the original document from the Bureau of Mines spelled it "Dauphin."  Which causes me to wonder which way is actually right.  Surely it wasn't misspelled on porpoise...

-Jeff


Re: One could model this car, but

Tony Thompson
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:

 
I also once considered destroying  CB&Q prints of airbrushed negatives showing a XM32 box in proposed "National Park Line" script slogan and a NE 12 Waycar with funky picture windows.

     Well said, Charlie, and you are right, that was exactly the kind of thing Richard was horrified by.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: One could model this car, but

mwbauers
 

Well……….

Walthers did give us the Piker and Oscar for passenger cars and the Jailbox and the Peanut car for freight equipment. Much earlier they ran several trolley car kits in both freight and passenger versions that were very unlike the roads they sold them as being.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:01 PM, Charlie Vlk cvlk@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


I also once considered destroying  CB&Q prints of airbrushed negatives showing a XM32 box in proposed "National Park Line" script slogan and a NE 12 Waycar with funky picture windows.
Most importers have better research nowadays than to work off a single photo or drawing from a book...
....but Richard's words still could come true.... 
Charlie Vlk


On Jul 4, 2015, at 2:51 PM, "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Ben Hom wrote:

 

Yes, but modeling the exceptions does not an exceptional modeler make.

     A point I often make also. Modeling an occasional exception is one thing, but there are plenty of modelers who seem to like exceptions better than what is actually typical. I recall Richard Hendrickson finding a print of a photo of one of these lettering errors at the old Naperville meeting, and immediately buying all the prints, in the hope that he could suppress the information. "Worst thing," he said, "is if Walthers gets hold of this."


Re: decals for Celanese tank cars

Tim O'Connor
 

  Does anyone know of decals for the script lettering on Celanese tank cars of the 1950s? Any help appreciated.
  Tony Thompson


Champ HT-222 ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111662870717

Tim O'


Re: One could model this car, but

Charlie Vlk
 

I also once considered destroying  CB&Q prints of airbrushed negatives showing a XM32 box in proposed "National Park Line" script slogan and a NE 12 Waycar with funky picture windows.
Most importers have better research nowadays than to work off a single photo or drawing from a book...
....but Richard's words still could come true.... 
Charlie Vlk


On Jul 4, 2015, at 2:51 PM, "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Ben Hom wrote:

 

Yes, but modeling the exceptions does not an exceptional modeler make.

     A point I often make also. Modeling an occasional exception is one thing, but there are plenty of modelers who seem to like exceptions better than what is actually typical. I recall Richard Hendrickson finding a print of a photo of one of these lettering errors at the old Naperville meeting, and immediately buying all the prints, in the hope that he could suppress the information. "Worst thing," he said, "is if Walthers gets hold of this."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Triple Valve Questions

Dave Nelson
 

That’s what I needed to know.  (1) tells me my brake data needs an update and (2) tells me the simulation software is also wrong, it’s using 1.5 psi under to trigger the release.

 

It’s been an interesting investigation.   I read a whole lot of technical stuff ranging in time from the late 1890’s to contemporary NS Locomotive Engineer training guides, all of which that never quite answered the question.  I learned the last 100 years have seen the triple valve change several times, always trying to deal with the problem of head end cars reacting faster than those at the rear.

 

Dave Nelson

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 12:26 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Triple Valve Questions

 



Dave, 

Since no air brake pros have responded yet, I'll offer some rough answers.

 

1 - Not instantaneous, but pretty fast. Seems to me like it happens in a second or less. 

 

2 - Trainline pressure must be higher than reservoir to initiate release. Otherwise brakes would self-release as soon as pressures equalized when making a service application.   It's been some years since I had to take a brake test, but IIRC, the difference is something around 1-1/2 psi.

 

Jack Mullen


Re: decals for Celanese tank cars

brianleppert@att.net
 

Walthers # 1300.  My mother worked for Celanese.  Rode Pacific Electric to get to downtown LA back in the later '30s.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

57561 - 57580 of 192760