Date   

Re: universal gasoline

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Mike, you’re correct that engines need adjustment for altitude.  Longer ago than I care to think about, I had a 1972 Datsun 240Z, which I bought in upstate NY.  I drove that to Colorado, and lived in Steamboat Springs for about a year.  The comparative lack of air pressure seriously affected the, uh, “spirit” of the car.  Adjustments of the twin SU carbs took care of that.  Later, that car was stolen, and I never got it back.  I wish I still had it.

 

While in Steamboat, on the Craig branch of the Rio Grande, I saw many steam era freight cars well within the time bounds of this list.

 

Schuyler

 

I think we are confusing the adjustment of engines for altitude with brand adjusting.

 

I know you have to adjust high altitude engines to run differently than one at sea-level.

 

I’m not sure about brand adjusting, but altitude adjustment is almost universally required for a car that is not computer-adjusted.

 

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

 

On Jul 11, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

 

On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    
All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?


Re: Milw gon photo

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I agree, Jack, not the same car, at least, not at the same time.  I’ve never seen a stiffener (for lack of a better term) on the inside of a gon end.

 

Schuyler

 

This pair of photos currently in Ted Culotta's ebay sale are not, I think, the same car.

TWO Milwaukee Road MILW 84794 41' GS gondola 8x10 photos

image

TWO Milwaukee Road MILW 84794 41' GS gondola 8x1...

US $7.50 Used in Collectibles, Transportation, Railroadiana & Trains

Preview by Yahoo

The exterior view of 84794 shows an apparently freshly shopped composite GS gon. The interior view is of a gon with a tight wood bottom having its wood siding replaced with steel.

 

A neat picture of the work in progress.

 

Jack Mullen


Re: universal gasoline

Charles Peck
 

So, other than when the U-boats were prowling the coast, how common was shipment of gasoline by rail?
I doubt not that it happened, but how commonly? And was that just to certain locales that were not served
by barge or pipeline? How about pre-jet avgas?  Special octane rating?  Perhaps a specialty product 
shipped in carload quantities?  
Chuck Peck in Florida

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

I think we are confusing the adjustment of engines for altitude with brand adjusting.


I know you have to adjust high altitude engines to run differently than one at sea-level.

I’m not sure about brand adjusting, but altitude adjustment is almost universally required for a car that is not computer-adjusted.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jul 11, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:


Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?



Milw gon photo

Jack Mullen
 

This pair of photos currently in Ted Culotta's ebay sale are not, I think, the same car.

TWO Milwaukee Road MILW 84794 41' GS gondola 8x10 photos

The exterior view of 84794 shows an apparently freshly shopped composite GS gon. The interior view is of a gon with a tight wood bottom having its wood siding replaced with steel.


A neat picture of the work in progress.


Jack Mullen


Re: universal gasoline

Gary Ray
 

I was told that all the gasoline that comes into the tank farm (by pipe) in Chico, CA is the same at any given time period and that additives are added as the fuel is loaded into the delivery truck.  Don’t know about earlier times.

Gary Ray

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 12:28 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] universal gasoline

 




On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?


-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS





Re: New file uploaded to STMFC

George Courtney
 

Bill,

   Like those figures which some people see two different objects.  Tim Connor responded to me.  I said I was going with the dreadnaught end and posted to politely respond to Tim's suggestion.  Geez, I was thanking Tim for his response.

George Courtney


Re: universal gasoline

mwbauers
 

I think we are confusing the adjustment of engines for altitude with brand adjusting.

I know you have to adjust high altitude engines to run differently than one at sea-level.

I’m not sure about brand adjusting, but altitude adjustment is almost universally required for a car that is not computer-adjusted.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jul 11, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:


Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?


Re: universal gasoline

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:


Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


universal gasoline

ed_mines
 

I've heard the same thing that modern day brands of gasoline differ only by a handful of additives but years ago at least one of the national brands advertised that travelers could find their gasoline in every state.


Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them) but cause problems with drivers from other parts of the country.


Ed Mines 


Re: New file uploaded to STMFC

Bill Welch
 

Sorry but no amount of "wish'in, 'n hoping, 'n pray'in" to quote (badly) the hit song, witchcraft or any other kind of "jue-jue" is going to transform the Dreadnaught ends used to the build the Southern Railway's high side Gons into a Murphy end. Really sorry I offered the lame explanation of a repair. If you look at the triangle of light shinning on the far end of the photo in question it is clearly a Dreadnaught end. Move on please.

Bill Welch


Re: Petroleum based fuels - (Additives For Gasoline)

thecitrusbelt@...
 

At least for the time period about 1970 to 1990 for Chevron in south Texas, I can confirm that additives were placed in the gasoline stock after it was loaded into tanker trucks for local distribution. My uncle hauled gasoline for Chevron.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: PS-# intro dates

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

I have Ed Hawkins exhaustive list of PS-1s. Indeed lot 5873 of 500 cars was built for the LV in 6-47. Likely it took several months to do them all.

The LV cars were followed by orders for CGW, B&M, ATSF, KCS and two orders for the NH in 1947.

The two WP cars, 1952 and 1953, were supposedly rebuilt, likely from PS demonstrators. They were delivered to the WP in 9-52 to test cushioned underframes and were owned by PS but leased to WP until purchased in 1960. They were the only 6' door PS-1 the WP ever rostered.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 7/11/15 10:58 AM, johnsykesiii@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

I have been researching Lehigh Valley boxcars lately, and although the PS-1 was not my primary subject, I do remember seeing that the 6200 series PS-1s were built in June 1947 by Pullman-Standard.  Just can't remember where I saw it (sorry).


-- John


Re: PS-# intro dates

John Sykes III
 

I have been researching Lehigh Valley boxcars lately, and although the PS-1 was not my primary subject, I do remember seeing that the 6200 series PS-1s were built in June 1947 by Pullman-Standard.  Just can't remember where I saw it (sorry).

-- John


Re: Lehigh Valley Boxcars P&L

John Sykes III
 

Thanks!  That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.  As was mentioned, it is very hard to tell from B&W photos and most of the color photos out there are from ground level, also making it very hard to tell.  I tried posting something to the LV group but it got lost in cyber-Neverland.

-- John


Re: Petroleum based fuels - was General Tank Car Discussion

mopacfirst
 

Several people have commented on this, and I can add that I too have heard this directly from more than one guy involved in refining and fuel distribution.

"This" being that the gasoline and other refined products are normally shipped from the refinery without much in the way of additives, and the custom stuff used for branding purposes is added at various points downstream. 

Bearing in mind, these products are really still a rich stew of hydrocarbons even in that state, since the refining process itself requires the addition of various specialty chemicals to reduce corrosion, reduce foaming, bind with the water and sulfides to drop them out, enhance the octane rating, and so on.  Those chemicals are generic, so they appear on process flow diagrams.  The stuff that makes Sinclair gasoline have 'nickel, nickel, nickel', and so forth, to quote a fifties TV ad, mostly is proprietary to the operating companies.

But for tank cars in general service, this is pretty much a non-issue since different hydrocarbon product grades mostly play well together as long as there's not too much heel left in the car.  Railroad-owned cars are mostly marked with the grade they're used for, as much because they have to also be used for storage of inventory than anything else.

Ron Merrick
the kid who would someday be a piping engineer


Re: PS-# intro dates

David Sieber
 

Don,
     The Smithsonian Institution has the Pullman-Standard builders photo of LV 62000, marked "No. 5539, Lot 5873, 6-11-47." with the annotation on a black band under the photo, "This is the first package car built in production."
HTH, Dave Sieber, Reno NV 


Re: Lehigh Valley Boxcars P&L

Layout Tour
 

My personal memory is that Valley steel box/auto cars were all red, and I have most LV books and can’t remember seeing any with black roofs.  I consider my friend Lee Turner to be the real expert.  He grew up in Sayre (the major LV engine and car shop), his dad became Superintendent of LV Motive Power, and he is a professional model painter.  I think you’ll find his response, particularly on Valley painting practices, informative:

 

  The only indication I have that roofs may have been black is the reference sheet for a decal set for the  8500-8599 series 50' double door cars from 1942. The builders photo included in the sheet is inconclusive as to the roof color. That is the only evidence for black roofs and I don't really trust second hand references unless I know and trust the source. I have a picture of a 61000 series 1937 AAR steel boxcar before its first reweigh or repack date and it has a red roof. All other color images I have seen don't support black roofs on any revenue cars. My theory on judging roof color on black and white photos is to look at the top of the end where the roof sheets wrap over the end sheets, the side of the car tend to have too many reflections and different planes to make a call but since the ends are on the same plane the difference in color is usually obvious. All that being said I do have an image of a 61000 series car renumbered into non revenue series 90000 with a black roof AND ends. The paint scheme is also non standard with no road name but with the diamond herald. This image was taken in the late sixties at Sayre at the sand house. If the car was put into sand service and showed any signs of roof or end leaks they may have waterproofed the car with car cement. Judging from the size of the diamond logo it was probably last painted late fifties/early sixties. In the LV/CNJ color guide from morning sun there is a picture of 8507 and judging from the diamond size it appears to have a red roof. 

 

  Years ago my father told me how  cars were painted at Sayre. Passenger cars were carefully sprayed and brush painted in the pass car shop and then hand lettered and varnished. Freight cars were painted out in the open using a section of pipe with one end hooked to an airline with a on off valve and a suction hose into a 55 gallon drum of paint. The other end of the pipe was hammered flat to provide a (very) rough spray pattern. The air valve was opened and the car was basically hosed with paint to the point that my father could see paint dripping off the sills. No paint was wasted on the roof only what fell as overspray. 

Chuck Davis

Norfolk, VA


Re: PS-# intro dates

George Eichelberger
 

From the Southern Railway Historical Association’s Archives at the Southern Museum in Kennesaw, GA, The P-S “Carbuilder” ad/magazine of July 1947 introduced the PS-1 box car. There are several other PS advertisements and announcements in the Archives. A report on the first PS-1 cushion under frames under two Western Pacific box cars is particularly interesting. There is a sidebar in the SRHA SR 40’ steel box car book about the underframes and multiple pages on the (many!) PS-1s ordered by the Southern Railway. The book is out of print but will be reissued next year with a completely updated version that includes all of the SR’s 40’ box car rebuilds.

In addition to the Kennesaw RPM on September 17th and 18th, an archives work session is scheduled for Tues-Thurs of that week. To the extent we can get the archives reorganized after the construction of the museum’s new 8,400 sq ft archives building, the archives files and photo collections (Salter, Ardrey, Roberts, Appleby, etc.) will be available. Info at www.srha.net /what’s new. If anyone is interested in presenting a clinic or wants more information, please contact me off list

Ike


Re: Petroleum based fuels - was General Tank Car Discussion

riverman_vt@...
 

    There may be more to this than many of us realize. A late family friend, who was a career US Army
Quartermaster Corps. officer, explained it this way to my father and I one day. In Boston, for example,
there were a number of fuel depots along the Mystic River all of which received products by coastal
tankers. If a Shell tanker arrived and the tanks at the Shell depot were full to capacity the tanker 
would just move to another depot and unload there. That DID NOT mean that the other depot would 
then be selling a Shell product. This is because the basic refinery products are all the same no matter
whose refinery they came from. The difference was in the additives that the different companies used.
The additives were not put in, so we were advised, until the basic products were in the tank trailer from
which they would be delivered to the dealer. Remember Shell ads featuring Shell gasoline with "TCP" 
added? I can remember various jokes as to what TCP stood for and expect I'm not the only one with 
such memories. But one tank trailer partially unloading at several dealers does create a reason to 
wonder, however.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: PS-# intro dates

riverman_vt@...
 

   Can we do a little better that "circa 1948" for the PS-1 boxcar? I have thought the first
production cars were completed in 1947 and am trying to pin the date down a bit better.

Thanks, Don Valentine

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