Date   

Re: Algoma Central boxcar

Walter Cox
 

With apologies to the list, I would like to correct some incorrect information in my previous email concerning Algoma Central box car no. 2901. I originally counted the end ribs from a faded sketch and later located a model of the original GTW car and discovered that the end panels were actually 7/2/8. Sorry for the error. Walt
 
 

In a message dated 7/15/2015 2:48:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, WaltGCox@... writes:
Hi Lester,
A. C. 2901 was originally a Grand Trunk Western 1921 series single sheathed boxcar rebuilt by GTW in 1937. It was later damaged and written off while on A .C. rails.  A. C. kept the car and repaired it. The GTW rebuild had   given it new steel 10' 4" sides so the Athearn length and height are ok and                        
the roof should be ok as GTW switched to raised panel roofs halfway through a previous rebuild.
 The 2/5/7 ends, the fishbelly underframe and the end sill projection along the bottom of the sides would all be missing from the Athearn model. 2901 was obviously one of a kind and I believe it was A. C'.s only steel boxcar for quite some time.
I hope this helps, Walt
 
 

 



Re: NYC train consists

richard haave
 

Milw may be "High" due to their part ownership (with NYC and CNW) of IHB.


Dick Haave


Re: NYC train consists

Dave Nelson
 

It’s been so long I don’t recall exactly what rule Tim and I followed.  I do know I always recorded the car initial and not the corporate name.   I always recorded the initials in the book as-is and later on entered a second column with what I thought the initials meant.  More than a few times I came to realize early conclusions could be wrong).

 

What I was always trying to do is cull out the excess result of cars that might be sitting around somewhere in protective service – that is to say not circulating in the national pool – that could get a load at any time, as well as purely local traffic.  To do that I suspect I did not ever consolidate by corporate identity when I was aware that the “sub-road” reported to the ICC on their own – so if I could see that, oh, the P&LE did their own reporting to ICC I would not have considered a consolidation of PLE with NYC, but looking instead at the Cincinnati Northern… weren’t they gone as a legal entity by 1948? Might the reported cars in this list simply be wandering souls not yet redeemed and repainted?  If so then adding their numbers into NYC is an arguable case.

 

I suppose another way of looking at it is this:  were the meaning of the car initials matched someplace by a the same name on a locomotive? If yes, don’t consolidate them with their parent roadname; If no, think about the specific issues for a while.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 7:13 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] NYC train consists

 




Dave,

 

I noticed a few car listings on your data that are NYC System affiliates; PLE, BA, CCCSTL, CNOR, MC, and PMKY. These account for 20 cars but I'm uncertain how much independence these lines had at the time of these lists. I had thought the CNOR and CCCSTL were fully merged into the NYCS. 



I guess this becomes a question of where do you draw the line. 

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 


Re: NYC train consists

Cyril Durrenberger
 

Thanks,

Cyril Durrenberger
--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 7/19/15, 'Dave Nelson' Lake_Muskoka@att.net [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [STMFC] NYC train consists
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 19, 2015, 8:50 PM


 









IIRC it was a tiny bit below 23% Cyril.



Given the NYC was so big it is certainly plausible that
variation away from

that number would occur elsewhere. ... again, IIRC the ICC
data averaged out

at around 20-21% across all roads.



Dave Nelson



-----Original Message-----

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]


Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 3:32 PM

To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [STMFC] NYC train consists



Thanks for doing this. I would like to see the percent from
NYC as that

would give us the amount from the home road.



Cyril Durrenberger



------------------------------------

Posted by: Cyril and Lynn Durrenberger
<durrecj@sbcglobal.net>

------------------------------------



------------------------------------



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Re: NYC train consists

Eric Hansmann
 

Dave,

I noticed a few car listings on your data that are NYC System affiliates; PLE, BA, CCCSTL, CNOR, MC, and PMKY. These account for 20 cars but I'm uncertain how much independence these lines had at the time of these lists. I had thought the CNOR and CCCSTL were fully merged into the NYCS. 

I guess this becomes a question of where do you draw the line. 

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

On Jul 19, 2015, at 7:50 PM, 'Dave Nelson' Lake_Muskoka@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

IIRC it was a tiny bit below 23% Cyril.  

Given the NYC was so big it is certainly plausible that variation away from
that number would occur elsewhere. ... again, IIRC the ICC data averaged out
at around 20-21% across all roads.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 3:32 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] NYC train consists

Thanks for doing this.  I would like to see the percent from NYC as that
would give us the amount from the home road.

Cyril Durrenberger


------------------------------------
Posted by: Cyril and Lynn Durrenberger <durrecj@...>
------------------------------------


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Posted by: "Dave Nelson" <lake_muskoka@...>
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Re: NYC train consists

Dave Nelson
 

IIRC it was a tiny bit below 23% Cyril.

Given the NYC was so big it is certainly plausible that variation away from
that number would occur elsewhere. ... again, IIRC the ICC data averaged out
at around 20-21% across all roads.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 3:32 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] NYC train consists

Thanks for doing this. I would like to see the percent from NYC as that
would give us the amount from the home road.

Cyril Durrenberger


------------------------------------
Posted by: Cyril and Lynn Durrenberger <durrecj@sbcglobal.net>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Re: Reading GHN Gondola

Kenneth Schanz
 

Thanks for the responses.

Ken Schanz



On Saturday, July 18, 2015 9:53 PM, "rwitt_2000@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
The first line: "1 W STEEL WHEEL"

Refers to one wear steel wheels verses "cast wheels" and one wear means they can't turned on a lathe to remove "flat spots", re-shape the flange, etc.

Bob Witt



Re: B&O Modeler

Greg Martin
 

B&O Modeler BOb Chapman writes:

"Not quite nobody, at least on the B&O side. I have been submitting articles to B&O Modeler; as each has appeared I have submitted another. And as Modeler died, my latest submission (a freight car feature) is concurrently dying in the "Modeler office," and a few others for later issues are dying in my file.
 
Large numbers of submitted articles may be lacking, but I'm certain enough material was available to keep Modeler going, especially if the publication schedule were made flexible as it has been in recent years. It's my belief that the primary problem is the time, skill, and commitment required from a volunteer editor to make each issue happen. It's a big job, and there doesn't seem to be a ready solution, at least in this case.
 
Regards,
Bob Chapman"  
 
I have to agree with Bob, the issues don't entirely belong to the modelers, there is a staff that the modelers appeal to that has to be there when the material arrives.
 
The historical society has to take on the burden of making the modeler's eZines a success, from the BOD to the sitting president to the committee members of the societies modeling committee. They will sooner or later come to the realization the a "fallen flag" society is doomed if the society is not catering to the modeling in a "society forum". As they say if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem...
 
You have to ask yourself why would the work of an excellent modeler like Bob Chapman go unpublished?  My, my...
 
I have to say that the work of Ben Hom has to be recognized with regard to the B&O Modeler as well as his work in The Keystone Modeler; however he is no one man show.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean


Attempted Southern on-line magazine (was B&O Modeler)

Jim King
 

Last year (maybe 2013), there was a widespread email posting requesting interest from modelers to support a proposed Southern Railway on-line modeling magazine similar to the ACL/SALHS, B&OHS and others.  From what I was told by the three main guys behind the proposal, you could count on 2 hands the number of responses.  The idea was DOA before it ever launched.

 

The B&O Modeler was well-written and had many interesting articles applicable to non-B&O topics, regardless of era.  However, just like all other aspects of model building, not just model railroading, the amount of time required to thoroughly research the prototype, build an accurate model, then write a detailed article with photos, keeps many would-be authors at bay.  There is no skirting the “time issue”, not only for the author but also the editor, publisher and distributors.  Several years ago, I heard another manufacturer state “it is easier to write a check, then learn how to build a model”.  He was referring to buying RTR or having a professional build the model.  The decline in builders also rolls over to the reduced demand for modeling articles and authors.

 

Jim King

(828) 777-5619

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


Re: NYC train consists

Guy Wilber
 

Double Deck stock car, Dave.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada

On Jul 19, 2015, at 3:05 PM, "'Dave Nelson' Lake_Muskoka@att.net [STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Oh… that reminds me, there is a car cod I’m not sure about – DD – what is that?


Re: NYC train consists

Cyril Durrenberger
 

Thanks for doing this. I would like to see the percent from NYC as that would give us the amount from the home road.

Cyril Durrenberger


Re: NYC train consists

Dave Nelson
 

Here is the ordered list of the US Boxcar Fleet - the NYC is zeroed out here
because for this set of data it is the home road and so it doesn't count. I
can see now there is a bit more variation that I first thought. It might
lessen with a larger sample. Oh. that reminds me, there is a car cod I'm
not sure about - DD - what is that?




PRR

10.05%


NYC

0.00%


ATSF

5.31%


MILW

4.86%


BO

4.34%


SP

4.21%


SOU

3.96%


UP

3.57%


CNW

3.52%


CBQ

3.27%


GN

3.24%


IC

3.19%


NP

2.96%


RI

2.76%


MP

2.74%


CO

2.14%


SLSF

2.00%


ERIE

1.83%


WAB

1.76%


LN

1.76%


ACL

1.72%


SAL

1.43%


NW

1.34%


SOO

1.33%


NKP

1.31%


GTW

1.30%


DLW

1.16%


RDG

1.16%


TNO

1.13%


PM

1.07%


CN

0.99%


GMO

0.94%


NH

0.91%


LV

0.85%


CP

0.83%


MKT

0.79%


DRGW

0.67%


TP

0.65%


PLE

0.62%


SSW

0.56%


CGW

0.55%


NCSL

0.54%


CMO

0.51%


MEC

0.51%


CG

0.46%


KCS

0.44%


BM

0.42%


WLE

0.40%


IGN

0.39%


DTI

0.38%


DH

0.37%


GCL

0.36%


MSL

0.35%


WM

0.32%


BAR

0.31%


WP

0.30%


SPS

0.27%


CNJ

0.24%


ITC

0.22%


EJE

0.22%


GA

0.22%


CRP

0.21%


CEI

0.18%


LA

0.17%


ONT

0.17%


CIL

0.16%


BA

0.16%


NS

0.15%


IHB

0.15%


BLE

0.15%


FWD

0.15%


LNE

0.14%


AA

0.14%


CV

0.14%


CRR

0.13%


THB

0.10%


CWC

0.09%


NJII

0.09%


PE

0.09%


P&E

0.08%


RUT

0.08%


CS

0.07%


ACY

0.07%


CIM

0.07%


DMIR

0.05%


DSA

0.05%


GF

0.05%


MI

0.05%


CASO

0.04%


GBW

0.04%


C&G

0.04%


GATX

0.04%


CCCS

0.04%


SA

0.04%


RFP

0.04%


BS

0.04%


IN

0.04%


NB

0.03%


FEC

0.03%


DM

0.03%


PWV

0.03%


TC

0.03%


VGN

0.03%


SHPX

0.02%


MC

0.02%


RS

0.02%


MSC

0.02%


NWP

0.02%


AC

0.02%


MWR

0.02%


WFS

0.01%


LSI

0.01%


QC

0.01%


HC

0.01%


AD

0.01%


ELS

0.01%


CR

0.01%


DTS

0.01%


SN

0.01%


CNL

0.01%


MRS

0.01%


NLC

0.01%


CTN

0.01%


NYSW

0.01%


OW

0.01%


BAP

0.00%


SL

0.00%


QAP

0.00%


KGB

0.00%


PHD

0.00%


WSS

0.00%


LSBC

0.00%


PEP

0.00%


IWC

0.00%


MPA

0.00%


TPW

0.00%


SI

0.00%


URR

0.00%


AN

0.00%


WCFN

0.00%


CCT

0.00%


MNE

0.00%


FDDM

0.00%


LC

0.00%


WIF

0.00%


BAM

0.00%


KOG

0.00%


SBK

0.00%


PS

0.00%


BRI

0.00%


CHV

0.00%


NN

0.00%


CIC

0.00%


KT

0.00%


TCG

0.00%


TG

0.00%


TM

0.00%


WIM

0.00%


DNE

0.00%


DWP

0.00%


HPCX

0.00%


HPD

0.00%


SS

0.00%


LOPG

0.00%


MV

0.00%


PMP

0.00%


SDAE

0.00%


BRC

0.00%


DUPX

0.00%


LHR

0.00%


MBR

0.00%


MDW

0.00%


MR

0.00%


WA

0.00%


WTR

0.00%


CWI

0.00%


MSCX

0.00%


NOR

0.00%


SG

0.00%


SLOF

0.00%





Dave Nelson


Re: NYC train consists

Dave Nelson
 

Having done similar things I can say “That, Sir, is a lot of work you’ve done”.



I took the rows from the last 30 trains, cut away the home road NYC boxcars (23% of all boxcars, about what I’d expect), sorted and counted the remaining 820cars… about 75-80% of what I consider an adequate sample size). Rather than continue I’ve done enough for today.



Sorting out the foreign road boxcars I created this table… the columns being Road Initial, How many times it was noted in the sample, the percentage that road initial is out of the 820 foreign road boxcars. I also stripped out the ampersand and renamed a few names to their proper initials.




PRR

82

10.00%


MILW

40

4.88%


ATSF

38

4.63%


BO

31

3.78%


CNW

30

3.66%


IC

30

3.66%


NP

29

3.54%


GN

28

3.41%


CO

27

3.29%


CBQ

26

3.17%


RI

24

2.93%


SOU

24

2.93%


ERIE

21

2.56%


WAB

19

2.32%


ACL

18

2.20%


SP

18

2.20%


UP

18

2.20%


LN

17

2.07%


SAL

17

2.07%


RDG

16

1.95%


PLE

15

1.83%


CP

14

1.71%


NW

14

1.71%


SOO

14

1.71%


CN

12

1.46%


PM

12

1.46%


DLW

10

1.22%


MP

10

1.22%


SLSF

8

0.98%


DRGW

7

0.85%


GTW

7

0.85%


NKP

7

0.85%


WM

7

0.85%


CG

6

0.73%


CNJ

6

0.73%


GMO

6

0.73%


NCSL

6

0.73%


NH

6

0.73%


SSW

6

0.73%


LV

5

0.61%


TNO

5

0.61%


AA

4

0.49%


BAR

4

0.49%


CGW

4

0.49%


CTHSE

4

0.49%


DTI

4

0.49%


IGN

4

0.49%


TP

4

0.49%


ALTON

3

0.37%


DH

3

0.37%


EJE

3

0.37%


KCS

3

0.37%


MEC

3

0.37%


OSL

3

0.37%


StLBM

3

0.37%


BM

2

0.24%


CIL

2

0.24%


CMO

2

0.24%


ITC

2

0.24%


LNE

2

0.24%


MKT

2

0.24%


MStL

2

0.24%


NS

2

0.24%


RFP

2

0.24%


WLE

2

0.24%


BA

1

0.12%


CCCSTL

1

0.12%


CCO

1

0.12%


CMO

1

0.12%


CMStP

1

0.12%


CNOR

1

0.12%


CV

1

0.12%


GA

1

0.12%


GBW

1

0.12%


IHB

1

0.12%


MC

1

0.12%


MI

1

0.12%


OWRN

1

0.12%


PMKY

1

0.12%


WP

1

0.12%





I havn’t compared this to fleet totals but just looking at the list of initials I’d say it appears to conform to what I would expect to see… MILW is probably high (esp. for the fluke appearance of several CTHSE cars and re-initialing them to MILW pushes it up higher). Of particular note are CP and CN which had huge fleets of boxcars… considerably reduced in this sample – again, as expected.



The obvious failure of any hypothesis is the one about nearest exchange railroads being highest… whole lot of road initials there at the top that are nowhere near western Ohio.



I’ll try and add more cars in a few days, see if anything changes.



Dave Nelson


Re: B&O Modeler

Charles Hladik
 

Bill,
 
    Politics, the damnation of us all.
 
    A couple years ago I needed some B&O info and mailed a request along with a $10.00 check. To this day I have not received an answer, but the Historical Society cashed the check. So one knows my opinion of the Historical Society, I've had no dealings with the folks from the Modeler. Good luck to all searching for info.
 
Chuck Hladik
Rutland Railroad
Virginia Division
Member RRHS
NMRA Life
 

In a message dated 7/19/2015 4:29:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Hello Group,


It is sad to see a good source of modeling information going away. But this appears to be a manpower issue and not a lack of articles. 

The original post stated…
Got a message yesterday from the B&ORHS webmaster that the links to this publication have been removed because the society couldn't find anyone to run the e-zine.  So it would seem that the B&O Modeler is comatose, if not dead.


It appears from this statement that there is a need for a replacement editor and production person. I am surprised that in a historical society with over 2000 members — or was that the round figure number given for the C&O group? — that there would be someone to step up to take over editorship. The comment that the B&O MODELER was not supported by the B&OHS dues is a bit telling. That seems to possibly indicate that there are some society internal politics involved. 

While I am not a B&O fanatic I have enjoyed the B&O MODELER and have used its articles as the “how to” instructions for modeling some steam era freight cars to travel my east central Kansas branch line.

The B&O MODELER will be missed. Hopefully there will be someone to step up and keep it going. 

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA  


On Jul 19, 2015, at 10:31 AM, chapbob611@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Al Kresse writes:
I would guess it is the same problem as with the C&O Historical Society -- nobody is writing modeling articles to put in the Magazine nor the electronic Newsletter.
 
 
 
Al --
 
Not quite nobody, at least on the B&O side. I have been submitting articles to B&O Modeler; as each has appeared I have submitted another. And as Modeler died, my latest submission (a freight car feature) is concurrently dying in the "Modeler office," and a few others for later issues are dying in my file. 
 
Large numbers of submitted articles may be lacking, but I'm certain enough material was available to keep Modeler going, especially if the publication schedule were made flexible as it has been in recent years. It's my belief that the primary problem is the time, skill, and commitment required from a volunteer editor to make each issue happen. It's a big job, and there doesn't seem to be a ready solution, at least in this case.
 
Regards,
Bob Chapman    



Re: B&O Modeler

Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hello Group,

It is sad to see a good source of modeling information going away. But this appears to be a manpower issue and not a lack of articles. 

The original post stated…
Got a message yesterday from the B&ORHS webmaster that the links to this publication have been removed because the society couldn't find anyone to run the e-zine.  So it would seem that the B&O Modeler is comatose, if not dead.


It appears from this statement that there is a need for a replacement editor and production person. I am surprised that in a historical society with over 2000 members — or was that the round figure number given for the C&O group? — that there would be someone to step up to take over editorship. The comment that the B&O MODELER was not supported by the B&OHS dues is a bit telling. That seems to possibly indicate that there are some society internal politics involved. 

While I am not a B&O fanatic I have enjoyed the B&O MODELER and have used its articles as the “how to” instructions for modeling some steam era freight cars to travel my east central Kansas branch line.

The B&O MODELER will be missed. Hopefully there will be someone to step up and keep it going. 

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA  


On Jul 19, 2015, at 10:31 AM, chapbob611@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Al Kresse writes:
I would guess it is the same problem as with the C&O Historical Society -- nobody is writing modeling articles to put in the Magazine nor the electronic Newsletter.
 
 
 
Al --
 
Not quite nobody, at least on the B&O side. I have been submitting articles to B&O Modeler; as each has appeared I have submitted another. And as Modeler died, my latest submission (a freight car feature) is concurrently dying in the "Modeler office," and a few others for later issues are dying in my file. 
 
Large numbers of submitted articles may be lacking, but I'm certain enough material was available to keep Modeler going, especially if the publication schedule were made flexible as it has been in recent years. It's my belief that the primary problem is the time, skill, and commitment required from a volunteer editor to make each issue happen. It's a big job, and there doesn't seem to be a ready solution, at least in this case.
 
Regards,
Bob Chapman    



Re: Overloaded Cars

rwitt_2000
 

The value of the Load Limit specifies the actual limit to the load. The "CAPY" is only a nominal number.

The limit weight the car can carry is determined by the size of the truck journals.

One example for a B&O M-27 box car

CAPY 100000
LD LMT 121300
LT WT 47700

The sum of  LT WT + LD LMT = Journal capacity 169000 for this car.

So the actual load can 121300/2000 = ~60 tons so a nominal "50-ton" car can carry a 60-ton load.

See this earlier discussion ...

Steam era freight car discussion group. The time period covered will be from 1900-1960.

  I hope this helps.


Regards,


Bob Witt


Re: NYC train consists

Guy Wilber
 

Terry wrote:

"The originals notes marked them as boxcars – so I left them that way"

Thank you, Terry.

Kindest Regards,

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: Overloaded Cars

Terry Link
 

 
 
 
 

I'm looking through Terry Link's Information on NYC train consists, and I'm noticing several cars that are overloaded. For example, in the list for train XN-2, dated May 20 1948, there is SAL box car #17220 listed as containing 60 tons of wheat. Considering this car, a SAL class B-6, is rated at 50 tons, that's a 10 ton over capacity load.

My question is how common was it for the railroad's to accept cars that were overloaded? Was there a percentage of capacity that was acceptable to overload a car?

 

I noticed this when entering these and found a lot of hopper cars overloaded.  There are also some flat cars loaded with Russian locomotives that are marked 105 tons – yet the cars are only rated for 50 or 70 tons.  So not sure what to make of some of these numbers.

 

Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario
www.canadasouthern.com


Re: NYC train consists

Terry Link
 

 
 
 
 

Thank you, Terry.  Nicely done!  One question; did you designate auto cars with an "A" or are they grouped in with all box cars? 

 
 
The originals notes marked them as boxcars – so I left them that way
 
Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario
www.canadasouthern.com


Overloaded Cars

Scott H. Haycock
 

I'm looking through Terry Link's Information on NYC train consists, and I'm noticing several cars that are overloaded. For example, in the list for train XN-2, dated May 20 1948, there is SAL box car #17220 listed as containing 60 tons of wheat. Considering this car, a SAL class B-6, is rated at 50 tons, that's a 10 ton over capacity load.


My question is how common was it for the railroad's to accept cars that were overloaded? Was there a percentage of capacity that was acceptable to overload a car?


Scott Haycock  

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