Date   

Re: fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)

Dave Parker
 

Don:

I am not sure I am completely following you concerning interchange traffic of Canadian cars, at least on the B&M.  These are the most meager crumbs of data, but Earl Tuson has posted two wheel reports on his site.  FWIW, with respect to box cars:

1.  1927 freight from Mystic Jct to White River Junction, with picks/drops in Nashua and Concord:  66 cars, 18 home (B&M/MTC), 9 CP, 4 CN, and 2 GT.  Interestingly, only 1 NYC, and zero PRR.

2.  1936 freight (ML-2) from Mechanicville to Lawrence, with picks/drops in E Deerfield, E Fitchburg, and Lowell:  100 cars, 31 home, 5 CN, and 4 CP.  Perhaps unsurprisingly, there are more NYC and PRR cars here (7 each).

IIRC, Earl has a much larger log from 1929-30, but I don't know if it has been transcribed yet.  These are the only conductor's books for the B&M of which I am aware, so we don't have much to go on.  But it's better than photographic evidence, for which I have never seen anything of substance, at least pre-WWII.  If you know of any other logbooks, I would be glad to learn of them.

With best regards,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA




Re: Transporting Anhydrous Ammonia

Tony Thompson
 

Bill Welch wrote:

 

Thanks Jim. I will need the full dome platform for my car. The Atlas car has two screws to attach the underframe to the tank. Initially I thought I should use an "Inflammable" Placard but in reading about anhydrous ammonia I think I should use either "Dangerous" or "Corrosive Liquid." What does Kadee have?


         The correct placard is the Compressed Gas placard.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Transporting Anhydrous Ammonia

Bill Welch
 

Thanks Jim. I will need the full dome platform for my car. The Atlas car has two screws to attach the underframe to the tank. Initially I thought I should use an "Inflammable" Placard but in reading about anhydrous ammonia I think I should use either "Dangerous" or "Corrosive Liquid." What does Kadee have?

Bill Welch


Re: Transporting Anhydrous Ammonia

James E Kubanick
 

Bill,

My order for a Kadee tank car arrived yesterday and, yes, it looks as though the platforms can be applied to an Atlas tank with minimum difficulty. The Kadee platforms have two legs that press fit into holes in the upper tank body. The platform ladders are part of the platform casting, so there is a detail bonus there. The underframe is fastened to the tank with a screw at the car center and, possibly, also with the two coupler box screws and/or kingpin screws. I can't speak for how well the frame will mate with the Atlas tank, as I do not have an Atlas car handy to review..Based on this cursory inspection, I would guess that your conversion is do-able, but the Kadee car is quite delicate and I don't want to try to disassemble any more of it. It's hard to find a safe way to even pick it up!

Engineering plastics are used for the parts, however, and the car not really fragile-just tricky to handle for fear of bending something out of place.

Also, the Kadee car does come with peel-and-stick placards for anhydrous ammonia and propane cargoes.

Be sure to let us know how the kit bash turns out.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV





On Sunday, July 26, 2015 11:29 AM, "fgexbill@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
I am in the process of changing some details on one of the Atlas 11k tank cars, their 1062-1 Associated Cooperatives, a Sheffield, AL company that owned two cars. Mainly I am improving the sill steps, using the appropriate ASF A-3 Ride Control trucks and adding warning placards.

This got me interested in understanding what this chemical is and I found this online and thought others might like to read up on it: http://www.transcaer.com/docs/AATour/Transcaer_Ammonia_Training_Student_Handout_rev04.pdf

I will be interested to see if the new Kadee tank car underframe and Dome Platform can be joined with the Atlas tank w/o too much difficulty. Atlas did a beautiful job with the lettering so the model will do but I love the idea of the see-thru grating of the running board and platform. I think I was also smart enough to buy Atlas' Mississippi Chemical Corporation from Yazoo City, MS but if I did, it has gotten separated from my stash, LOL.

Bill Welch



Re: fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)

riverman_vt@...
 

   Not so fast please, Ben, as you seem to have proven my point.
You state that "The preponderance of the data is from Trains 9 and 
10 dated 1948-1950", which indicates that only two trains from one
road in Northern New England were used to make the determination.
While which road is not stated it is still only ONE road and two trains
where there were many crossing points and several roads that used 
them in the region. If we had switch lists from several roads within 
the region and time frame that would be one thing but with most 
appearing to be as I've described I'm miles from being convinced.
If I've missed some part of this before Armand's post that I replied
to please fill me in but as things stand at present I see no logic to
what you suggest.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: Spencer Kellogg & Sons tank car

Spen Kellogg <spninetynine@...>
 

On 7/26/2015 1:38 PM, gfitzgerald111@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

While I have no specific information about tank cars I do have some brief corporate history background. At the moment I am doing a World War I history project that deals with Spencer Kellogg And Sons Inc. -albeit rather tangentially- and as such I have been looking into the early years of the firm. One of the nations’ leaders in linseed oil production, the firm had a number of mills built especially for the bulk production of linseed oil and the company dates in one form or another to 1824 although really begins in April of 1894. The first plant in Buffalo, which dates to the mid-1890s was the largest flaxseed-crushing plant in the country at the time of construction and was joined by another facility in Minneapolis in 1907 and in Edgewater NJ in 1909. The New Jersey plant was built in part to receive flaxseed and castor bean shipments from overseas, especially India and Brazil. The overall corporate history is really quite intriguing especially as it became more of an international player.

 In seems that in 1949 the Minneapolis plant could produce approximately 7 tank cars per day which might be a useful ball park figure for those interested in fleet building or planning op sessions. I do not have data on any of the other plants.

 In addition…One of the earlier posting mentioned possible links or over lap with the Spencer Chemical Co.. While I am not familiar with every chemical company in the United States there was a Spencer Chemical Co out in Kansas City area, which was NOT related in any way to Spencer Kellogg as far as I can ascertain. Spencer Chemical Co was involved in part with the analysis of the coatings of ammonium nitrate crystals and was looking into various approaches for fertilizer production and explosives conversion. Spencer Chemical Co grew out of an earlier concern, the Military Chemical Works, Inc, which apparently was looking into both explosives and fertilizers. These latter two firms date back to the early postwar period say 1946/47.

To add to that during the period between WWI and WWII the company had warehouses in Rosario, Argentina (flax seed shipments I believe) and plants in Manila, Philippines (coconut oil and copra) and Hankow, China ((tung oil). A fleet of five 10,000 ton tankers brought shipments to Edgewater, NJ and Long Beach, Ca for processing and shipment by rail (mandatory STMFC content).

And, no, SK&S had no connection to Spencer Chemical Co.

Spen Kellogg


Re: Questions on double-door box cars

Thomas Baker
 

​Ben,


Thank you.  Your information offers just about everything I need to know on the car.  Yes, the photo depicting the ACCURAIL model is the one I have.  The one point I still do not know is the type of roof.  


thanks again!


Tom Baker


From: STMFC@... on behalf of Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2015 12:29 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Questions on double-door box cars
 


Tom Baker asked:
"I once worked with a church group of pre-teens on a model railroad project.  One car donated, but never used because the project ended before we got to the point of assembling freight cars, was an ACCURAIL double-door NYC box car.

1. The car has the number NYC 70835.  Is that number correct for a car of this type?"

If it's the Accurail 40 ft double-door boxcar, sort of, but not quite.  NYC 70000-70999, Lot 760-B, doors and ends different from the Accurail model.




"2. I might not be clear on when the NYC dropped the black oval emblem with white lettering inside and went to an oval outlined in white with lettering on the box car red freight car color.  According to the stamped built date, the car was constructed in ! 9-46.  The stamped date is hard to read, so it could be 8-46.  In any case, would a black oval with white border and white lettering inside be correct for such a date?"

The NYC dropped the black background in March 1944 (exception: Pacemaker boxcars and bay window cabooses), but brought it back in August 1955 with the change to Gothic reporting marks.  See Terry Link's summary at the following link (scroll 1/3 of the way down the page):

If this is the! model in question, the black background is correct as it represents a car repainted into the Gothic reporting mark scheme.


Ben Hom



Re: Spencer Kellogg & Sons tank car

Gerry Fitzgerald
 

While I have no specific information about tank cars I do have some brief corporate history background. At the moment I am doing a World War I history project that deals with Spencer Kellogg And Sons Inc. -albeit rather tangentially- and as such I have been looking into the early years of the firm. One of the nations’ leaders in linseed oil production, the firm had a number of mills built especially for the bulk production of linseed oil and the company dates in one form or another to 1824 although really begins in April of 1894. The first plant in Buffalo, which dates to the mid-1890s was the largest flaxseed-crushing plant in the country at the time of construction and was joined by another facility in Minneapolis in 1907 and in Edgewater NJ in 1909. The New Jersey plant was built in part to receive flaxseed and castor bean shipments from overseas, especially India and Brazil. The overall corporate history is really quite intriguing especially as it became more of an international player.

 

In seems that in 1949 the Minneapolis plant could produce approximately 7 tank cars per day which might be a useful ball park figure for those interested in fleet building or planning op sessions. I do not have data on any of the other plants.

 

In addition…One of the earlier posting mentioned possible links or over lap with the Spencer Chemical Co.. While I am not familiar with every chemical company in the United States there was a Spencer Chemical Co out in Kansas City area, which was NOT related in any way to Spencer Kellogg as far as I can ascertain. Spencer Chemical Co was involved in part with the analysis of the coatings of ammonium nitrate crystals and was looking into various approaches for fertilizer production and explosives conversion. Spencer Chemical Co grew out of an earlier concern, the Military Chemical Works, Inc, which apparently was looking into both explosives and fertilizers. These latter two firms date back to the early postwar period say 1946/47.

 

Best,

 

Gerard

 

Gerard J. Fitzgerald

Charlottesville, Virginia


Re: fleet composition

Tim O'Connor
 

No.  The numbers support Armand in this instance.  Of 3167 boxcar entries from the shifting lists in Armand's collection that I've been able to transcribe and analyze, these are the top 10 roads:

NYC  365
CN   359
PRR  204
CP   124
ATSF 122
B&O   99
MILW  93
SOU   86
NP    79
CNW   74

The preponderance of the data is from Trains 9 and 10 dated 1948-1950.

Ben Hom


I said it before, this is no surprise due to the nature of the traffic coming
from Canada. This traffic continues to this day on highways, and rail. Conrail
used to run a unit newsprint train that came down from Montreal to Syracuse and
then turned east to Selkirk and from there to major east coast cities.

Back in the day a lot of that traffic would have come down on the Rutland, CV,
D&H, B&M, MEC, GT, as well as on the NYC (which is the route used by Conrail).
Newsprint was BIG traffic in the 1940's -- most people got a daily paper and many
people got more than one. We're probably talking about 20 million subscriptions
in the northeast US -- that is a LOT of paper.

Armand mentioned grain traffic too. And of course, lots of lumber. I think
Tim Gilbert's numbers often showed not only "home road" cars but also neighboring
roads tended to be more common than expected. So on PRR you might see more NYC
and B&O cars than the percentages would lead you to expect.

Here NYC is dominant because it was the major player in this territory -- north,
west and south of the Rutland, interchanging at multiple points. And PRR strongly
represented because it was so dominant in nearby areas.

To me those high ATSF and MILW numbers reveal a traffic artifact -- In other words,
there was probably some identifiable cause (like someone buying large quantities of
grain from Topeka KS, or whatever). In fact, ATSF-MILW-NP-CNW are all strongly
associated with grain, MILW-NP are also strongly associated with lumber, and CNW
strongly associated with paper too.

Anyway, Armand, if he models 1948-1949, doesn't have to guess ! :-)

Tim O'Connor


Re: fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)

Benjamin Hom
 



Don Valentine wrote:
"But which roads in Northern New England, Armand? This could certainly be said for the 
Central Vermont, and there is ample photographic evidence to that effect, but being a CNR
subsidiary how could one expect it to be otherwise? The same could be stated about the
Grand Trunk. I do not believe you could make that statement about the Rutland though it
did carry a few CNR cars, and your statement could not be made about the joint CPR-B&M
line extending south from Newport, VT nor the MEC as its primary Canadian connections 
were all with the CPR. These were in St. Johnsbury, VT,  Mattawumkeag and Vanceboro, 
ME. The MEC connection, indeed trackage rights, over the Grand Trunk from Groveton to
North Stratford, NH rarely provided any interchange with CNR subsidiary Grand Trunk and 
the same must be said about the B&M connection with the Grand Trunk at Groveton, NH.
Thus it would seem that your statement defines interchange traffic between the CNR and 
CV but is limited to that one instance. Is this not correct?"

No.  The numbers support Armand in this instance.  Of 3167 boxcar entries from the shifting lists in Armand's collection that I've been able to transcribe and analyze, these are the top 10 roads:

NYC  365
CN   359
PRR  204
CP   124
ATSF 122
B&O   99
MILW  93
SOU   86
NP    79
CNW   74

The preponderance of the data is from Trains 9 and 10 dated 1948-1950.


Ben Hom


Dynamometer Car on the RI

Steve and Barb Hile
 

In 1940, the Rock Island purchased a Dynamometer car built by Westinghouse Air Brake Company in 1912 (for $4700 according to the annual report.)  It was scrapped in 1954.  I haven’t been able to find a picture of this car as Rock Island, but I do have some dimensions and a floor plan layout on diagram sheet, but not a side elevation.  The number and arrangement of doors, window, etc. shown could match those of Westinghouse’s dynamometer car number 2 that can be seen at

 

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?august06/08-03-06/wab2a.jpg

 

Does anyone have any information that could confirm my suspicion that the RI DID buy WABCO #2?  Any leads on photographs?

 

Thanks in advance,

Steve Hile


SOO 136000

mopacfirst
 

Des Plaines Hobbies did a SOO version of the IMWX '37 box when they were first out.  I scored a dollar-sign logo version of the car at the time but missed out on the large-lettering paint scheme, which would have been more appropriate for my era.  Finally picked one up on eBay, and I have found the data listing on the Ed Hawkins list which confirms most of the details, but there are still a couple of questions.

I presumed that a repainted car like this would have a 'dip-job' paint scheme, so I've painted all the underframe details freight car red.  Am I good so far?

I also don't know what the trucks would be.  I presume the Accurail-type AAR truck with widely-spaced outer springs.  I could look for the other car I built on the layout, but I'm at my other house so can't do that.

Turns out that there were only 100 cars, so two means they're over-represented on my Kansas early-sixties layout, but all the granger roads moved cars around to cover the harvests, so still very plausible.

Comments welcome.....

Ron Merrick



PSC O scale 8000 gallon ACF type 27 tank car

Andy Carlson
 

I would like to sell this Korean built unpainted brass O scale PSC tank car, as I have no plans for keeping any of my O scale stuff acquired over the years.

Has the original foam and box (which shows some shelf wear).  Has brass cast, sprung double truss spring plank trucks. The model has modest tarnishing.  I don't believe it has ever been on the track, supported by the lack of installed couplers.

Offered for $235, includes USPS shipping. I accept checks and money orders. For a small fee, I accept PayPal as well. If interested, contact me off-list at
Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: Duryea underframe detail parts?

Greg Martin
 

Thank you Michael,
 
 
I believe that I have most id not all of the instruction sheet for the West Rail Kits from his collection and it is on my to do list to get them sorted.
 
Thank you,
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
In a message dated 7/25/2015 12:56:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

 

I still have one or two Westrail kits, and though Richard did not specifically include Duryea underframes in these kits, he included simple instructions and line drawings to simulate the prototype.


Michael Gross





Re: Questions on double-door box cars

Benjamin Hom
 

Tom Baker asked:
"I once worked with a church group of pre-teens on a model railroad project.  One car donated, but never used because the project ended before we got to the point of assembling freight cars, was an ACCURAIL double-door NYC box car.

1. The car has the number NYC 70835.  Is that number correct for a car of this type?"

If it's the Accurail 40 ft double-door boxcar, sort of, but not quite.  NYC 70000-70999, Lot 760-B, doors and ends different from the Accurail model.




"2. I might not be clear on when the NYC dropped the black oval emblem with white lettering inside and went to an oval outlined in white with lettering on the box car red freight car color.  According to the stamped built date, the car was constructed in 9-46.  The stamped date is hard to read, so it could be 8-46.  In any case, would a black oval with white border and white lettering inside be correct for such a date?"

The NYC dropped the black background in March 1944 (exception: Pacemaker boxcars and bay window cabooses), but brought it back in August 1955 with the change to Gothic reporting marks.  See Terry Link's summary at the following link (scroll 1/3 of the way down the page):

If this is the model in question, the black background is correct as it represents a car repainted into the Gothic reporting mark scheme.


Ben Hom


Questions on double-door box cars

Thomas Baker
 

Group,


​Cam an informed person answer the following questions:


I have a set of ODDBALL decals for an M K T double-door box car reflecting a prototype used on the KATY for mail storage and railway express service in passenger trains and painted chrome yellow.  My questions are as follows:


1. Was the roof diagonal panel or rectangular panel?


2. Were the ends a 5/5 dreadnaught or IDE?


3. The numbers I have are 45001, 45230, 45079, 60100, 60053.  Were the cars with these numbers all assigned, for a time, for use in passenger trains mail storage and REA service?


4. One source has informed me that the cars in this series had an end-opening door at one end.  Is this correct?


I once worked with a church group of pre-teens on a model railroad project.  One car donated, but never used because the project ended before we got to the point of assembling freight cars, was an ACCURAIL double-door NYC box car.


1. The car has the number NYC 70835.  Is that number correct for a car of this type?


2. I might not be clear on when the NYC dropped the black oval emblem with white lettering inside and went to an oval outlined in white with lettering on the box car red freight car color.  According to the stamped built date, the car was constructed in 9-46.  The stamped date is hard to read, so it could be 8-46.  In any case, would a black oval with white border and white lettering inside be correct for such a date?


Thank you in advance for information responding to my questions.


Tom Baker


Transporting Anhydrous Ammonia

Bill Welch
 

I am in the process of changing some details on one of the Atlas 11k tank cars, their 1062-1 Associated Cooperatives, a Sheffield, AL company that owned two cars. Mainly I am improving the sill steps, using the appropriate ASF A-3 Ride Control trucks and adding warning placards.


This got me interested in understanding what this chemical is and I found this online and thought others might like to read up on it: http://www.transcaer.com/docs/AATour/Transcaer_Ammonia_Training_Student_Handout_rev04.pdf


I will be interested to see if the new Kadee tank car underframe and Dome Platform can be joined with the Atlas tank w/o too much difficulty. Atlas did a beautiful job with the lettering so the model will do but I love the idea of the see-thru grating of the running board and platform. I think I was also smart enough to buy Atlas' Mississippi Chemical Corporation from Yazoo City, MS but if I did, it has gotten separated from my stash, LOL.


Bill Welch


Re: Frt car populations/frt train consists [ warning...long ]

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

To me the important conclusions to take away from the Wyoming
study are:

1) A layout that has far too many "exceptions" might be nice
but it isn't very prototypical. I'm talking about the guy who
has one of everything and especially those cars you only
see occasionally in any photos from the era.

2) If your layout "works" almost all of the cars on all of the
trains you run then you are gong to need to swap out a
significant number of cars as part of the prep for each
session. (By "works" I'm talking about cars that are
delivered to/picked up from an industry.)

3) Most layouts have a certain number of "through trains"
that come from staging, run across the layout, and go
back to staging. Those trains also need to be modified
during the reset - so they don't get to be so repetitive
that your crew can recognize the train by the cars in it.
The trains -should- be recognized by the crew ... but
by their position in the lineup rather than from the cars.

4) If your crew starts saying to you ... "I'm getting tired of
delivering the same old box car to the same industry
(or picking it up)" ... then you need to figure out how to
put the variety back into your op. At least one way to do
that is to encourage the crew members to take different
jobs for each session - but you will still have to swap some
cars/waybills in order for the session to not get repetitive.

5) Far too many layouts -lack- a good way to "fiddle the cars"
between sessions. Paul Catapano had a great fiddle area
on his "Airline" in Ca. ... trains came in and out of a large
"staging area" at one end of the layout room from two
sides and the cars could be pulled and replaced easily
from 'shelves'. Paul actually fiddled some of the trains
during the session - not sure that is "required" but it did
allow him to maximize the number of 'unique' trains that
showed up on the layout during the all day session.

- Jim B.


Re: Frt car populations/frt train consists [ warning...long ]

Tim O'Connor
 

Yes, but Mike models 1953, so rules that ended in 1947 are rather moot.
The D&RGW and SP interchanged plenty of traffic in the 1950's, including
coal, pig iron and steel, lumber, perishables, autos and auto parts, ...

IMO it is plausible that the conclusion Mike has drawn about Wyoming is
correct(!) for the simple reason that SP trains terminating at Ogden were
not, in fact, free rolling. As I recall they were required to turn over the
consist to the UP... at least between 1869 and 1947.

Dave Nelson


Re: When were double doors put on 1937 AAR 40' boxcars?

Tim O'Connor
 


 > the model I'm looking at is 38332 which interestingly is not in the 1949 rwy. equip. register...

The ex-Erie and ex-DL&W cars were in NP series 37000-37899 and 38168-38667.

Interestingly SOME were rebuilt as combination door box cars! I have a shot
of combination plug/sliding door NP 37148 with a VIKING ROOF and a built date
stencil of 8-1938 (which could be a mistake since I don't show that built date
for either ERIE or DL&W cars)

Tim O'Connor

61121 - 61140 of 196975