Date   

Re: PS-1 "clones"

Ed Hawkins
 

On Aug 6, 2015, at 4:01 PM, rwitt_2000@... [STMFC] wrote:

If one is discussing kit built cars, the B&O built some of their M-67, 470600-470999 series, box cars at their DuBois, Pa shops from P-S kits. These were unusual as they had an IH of 10-ft.

There remains some confusion about the production of these cars. Possibly some samples were built first by Pullman-Standard for approval by the B&O. There is a Hundman published photo with a credit as a P-S photo. There also is photographic evidence of new M-67s being built at DuBois. To add to the confusion the B&O diagram for this class lists Pullman-Standard as the builder. In Eric Neubauer lot number compilation even he question if these were in fact kits. His listing lacks a P-S lot number for these cars.
Bob,
The same is true for IC kits used by the railroad to build their riveted-side PS-1 box cars. There were no Pullman-Standard lot numbers that I've found assigned for these components/kit orders.

Interestingly, ACF did assign a lot number (5114) for a kit order in which B&O built 600 40'-6" box cars at Du Bois ca. January 1958. These were class M-66 of 10'-0" IH numbered 470000-470599.

From the ACF lot list for 5114: "600 c/s sides, & underframes, welded construction, SRE. ends, roofs & Camel doors for PD 40-8 box cars." The c/s stands for car sets, but I don't know what the "PD" designation means. The components furnished by ACF were built at their Berwick plant, not all that far from Du Bois.

After construction of some of the components, in Oct. 1957 ACF photographed RF&P 3343 gondola car loaded with six car sides. An adjoining car of unknown identity was loaded with underframes.

The collection of ACF drawings at the Museum of Transportation has 5 drawings that pertain including side sill, side plate, side assembly, underframe arrangement, and center sill.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: PS-1 "clones"

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Tim and friends,

I personally would consider the cars to be "clones" if they used Pullman sides, ends and roofs, the signature pieces that make a PS-1 look like a PS-1.

I understand that the underframes of the Pullman-built cars differed quite a bit over time, and maybe depending on the buyer's preferences. Some were said to ride on AAR standard underframes. Since this is not a generally visual feature, I could give the underframes a pass and still call the car a "clone".

Other major parts would be "specialties" (brake wheels, running boards/brake steps, doors and even trucks), and they varied widely by buyer's preference and over time, so I wouldn't count this stuff against a "clone".

I wouldn't discount the B&O M-67 as a "clone" because of its height (not saying anyone else did). Pullman built 10' IH PS-1s for the D&LW, NH (2 lots) and some door-and-a-half 50' cars for the USN.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 8/6/15 4:26 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:
 


I've never heard them called PS-1 clones, but the NP used Pullman parts
to build 40 foot combination door box cars at the Brainerd MN shops. And
Evans and North American often used Pullman car parts. What do you consider
to be a true "clone" ? Did the IC cars have 100% Pullman PS-1 parts or did
they mix it up with SRE parts, or Youngstown underframes, etc?

Tim O'Connor

>Besides the IC cars, does anyone know of other PS-1 clones assembled by
>railroad shops from Pullman-supplied parts?
>
>Yours Aye,
>
>Garth Groff



Re: PS-1 "clones"

mopacfirst
 

The MP built quite a few cars at DeSoto, Missouri with P-S components during the late 50s, up through 1960 which was pretty much the end of carbuilding there.  The components that show up most often were roof and/or ends.  I have a partial list.

Ron Merrick


Re: PS-1 "clones"

Rufus Cone
 

I believe the NP cars with PS components to which Tim refers are shown here:
http://www.nprha.org/NP%20Box%20Cars/Box%20Cars%2040%20Ft.%20Steel%20Sheathed%203000-3399.jpg

General NP Freight Car Link:
http://www.nprha.org/Pages/Equipment.aspx#Freight-Cars

Rufus Cone
Bozeman MT

I've never heard them called PS-1 clones, but the NP used Pullman parts
to build 40 foot combination door box cars at the Brainerd MN shops. And
Evans and North American often used Pullman car parts. What do you consider
to be a true "clone" ? Did the IC cars have 100% Pullman PS-1 parts or did
they mix it up with SRE parts, or Youngstown underframes, etc?

Tim O'Connor

Besides the IC cars, does anyone know of other PS-1 clones assembled by
railroad shops from Pullman-supplied parts?

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff


Re: PS-1 "clones"

rwitt_2000
 

If one is discussing kit built cars, the B&O built some of their M-67, 470600-470999 series, box cars at their DuBois, Pa shops from P-S kits. These were unusual as they had an IH of 10-ft.

There remains some confusion about the production of these cars. Possibly some samples were built first by Pullman-Standard for approval by the B&O. There is a Hundman published photo with a credit as a P-S photo. There also is photographic evidence of new M-67s being built at DuBois. To add to the confusion the B&O diagram for this class lists Pullman-Standard as the builder. In Eric Neubauer lot number compilation even he question if these were in fact kits. His listing lacks a P-S lot number for these cars.

Bob Witt


Re: PS-1 "clones"

Tim O'Connor
 

I've never heard them called PS-1 clones, but the NP used Pullman parts
to build 40 foot combination door box cars at the Brainerd MN shops. And
Evans and North American often used Pullman car parts. What do you consider
to be a true "clone" ? Did the IC cars have 100% Pullman PS-1 parts or did
they mix it up with SRE parts, or Youngstown underframes, etc?

Tim O'Connor

Besides the IC cars, does anyone know of other PS-1 clones assembled by
railroad shops from Pullman-supplied parts?

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff


Re: PS-1 "clones"

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

Besides the IC cars, does anyone know of other PS-1 clones assembled by railroad shops from Pullman-supplied parts?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


Re: Early L&N Covered Hopper?

Eric Hansmann
 

Buffalo & Susquehanna hoppers in the as-built paint and lettering are coming from Accurail with their USRA hopper line. Here's what the models will look like. 

http://accurail.com/accurail/ART/2400/24294.jpg




Three packs and singles will be available soon, as per the August Accurail flyer.

http://accurail.com/accurail/CATALOG/2015/2015_August.pdf




Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX




 

On August 6, 2015 at 4:02 AM "Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"I was inspired to see if other railroads did this and BINGO came up immediately with B&O N-26 #233250 (USRA clone I think) with exactly the same solution !!"

B&O 233100-233496, Class N-26, ex-Buffalo & Susquehanna USRA copies built in 1923, acquired by the B&O in 1932.


Ben Hom


Re: PS-1 "clones"

Lee Gautreaux
 

Martin,

Many thanks!  That was the exact information I was looking for.

Lee A. Gautreaux - The RailGoat


Re: Early L&N Covered Hopper?

Benjamin Hom
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"I was inspired to see if other railroads did this and BINGO came up immediately with B&O N-26 #233250 (USRA clone I think) with exactly the same solution !!"

B&O 233100-233496, Class N-26, ex-Buffalo & Susquehanna USRA copies built in 1923, acquired by the B&O in 1932.


Ben Hom


Re: Early L&N Covered Hopper?

Tim O'Connor
 


Nevertheless, Dennis, I think "funky" is an appropriate term to describe the appearance.

I was inspired to see if other railroads did this and BINGO came up immediately with B&O
N-26 #233250 (USRA clone I think) with exactly the same solution !! Two N-17 photos however
show the pipe immediately bent upwards and back over the top of the brake cylinder. So, two
different solutions for the same problem by the same railroad.

Tim O'Connor



Ben, I suspect its the brake cylinder hanging out the end of the car.
===============

Why do you say that? The pipe to the BC is not deformed and is still strapped to the end post.

The "backward" facing brake cylinders on the USRA design cars were really close to the end sill. I don't have a drawing handy, But I recall these were originally piped with standard pipe fittings, elbows and such. It looks to me when the L&N converted these to AB brake, they wanted to use bent pipe and the "Wabcoseal" compression fittings that were common by the late thirties, and there wasn't enough room for the sweep of the bend inside the framing, so this was their solution. Seems to have worked well enough.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Bowser Covered Hoppers

Doug Pillow
 

        The N&W  cars also difference in that the center lower lower door guides faced in opposite directon from the Pennsy cars
                                                     Doug Pillow


Re: Early L&N Covered Hopper?

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <caboose9792@...> wrote :

Ben, I suspect its the brake cylinder hanging out the end of the car.
===============

Why do you say that? The pipe to the BC is not deformed and is still strapped to the end post.

The "backward" facing brake cylinders on the USRA design cars were really close to the end sill. I don't have a drawing handy, But I recall these were originally piped with standard pipe fittings, elbows and such. It looks to me when the L&N converted these to AB brake, they wanted to use bent pipe and the "Wabcoseal" compression fittings that were common by the late thirties, and there wasn't enough room for the sweep of the bend inside the framing, so this was their solution. Seems to have worked well enough.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Early L&N Covered Hopper?

rwitt_2000
 

Yes, the piping outside the end brace makes it very susceptible to incidental damage as "bashed" ends were common. The badly corroded panel looks like fire damage from thawing a load in its past.

Has anyone noticed the small lettering below the brake cylinder "B END"? It looks like it's on the car and not added to the photo.

Bob Witt


Re: IC home-built ri veted PS-1 40ft boxc ars (was: PS-# intro da...

caboose9792@...
 

 
 
In a message dated 7/17/2015 10:02:13 A.M. Central Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

  Garth, could you give us the number series for those IC home-built 40ft riveted PS-1 boxcars?
   Built date would also help in researching these for modeling.
  Thanks in advance, Dave Sieber, Reno NV


Dave, I'm not Garth, but this is what I have

originally

   IC series   3000-  3999 blt 1957         CENTRALIA SHOPS 8 foot doors | ORER 1959 lists
   IC series   4000-  4899 blt ?              CENTRALIA SHOPS 8 foot doors |  1893 cars 3000-4899

   IC series 22000- 23474 blt 1954-1955 CENTRALIA SHOPS 6 foot doors | ORER 1959 1444 cars
   IC series 23475- 23499 blt ?              CENTRALIA SHOPS 6 foot doors | ORER 1959    25 cars
   IC series 23500- 23534 blt ?              CENTRALIA SHOPS 6 foot doors | ORER 1959    35 cars

Tim O'Connor

Tim and others just looked though some of my diagram books.... the '64  says:
 
3000 & 4000 show built 1957 spec 0-316, 4900-4999 were part of same batch but received DF equipment
 
22000-23474 , 23475-23499 spec 0-313 built 1954 23500-23534 built 1955 cars 23000-23534 equipped with load strap anchors
 
Mark Rickert


Re: PS-1 "clones"

M SKRZETUSZEWSKI <martinskrz@...>
 

Hi Lee and All,
The answer to this car is on this page:

If you scroll down the page, you find:
Boxcar PS-1/M-67a 1968-1980 Era ACI Labels Road #468741. In early 1964, B&O leased 218 secondhand 40' boxcars from dealer United States Railway Equipment. These boxcars had been built originally by Pullman-Standard as model PS-1 boxcars for Ann Arbor in 1956. B&O gave them class and numbers M-67a 468700-468797 (six foot door opening, Youngstown doors, 98 cars) and M-67b 468800-468919 (eight foot door opening, Superior doors, 120 cars). This production run will have the 6 foot door openings. These cars have been authorized exclusively for the B&O Railroad Historical Society by CSX.

Best regards,
Martin Skrzetuszewski
(London, England)
 


From: "railgoat@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, 5 August 2015, 19:20
Subject: [STMFC] PS-1 "clones"

 
Did car builders other than PS build PS-1 "clones?"  I see this B&O car:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo468792alb.jpg

which appears to have a USRE builder's stencil.  Kadee offers a car in the same number range with the same stencil:

http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/jpg/4527l.jpg
 The model is of a PS PS-1 40' box car.  I don't see any B&O cars built by PS in this number range.  Could this be a second hand car?  Curious.

Lee A. Gautreaux - The RailGoat






PS-1 "clones"

Lee Gautreaux
 

Did car builders other than PS build PS-1 "clones?"  I see this B&O car:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo468792alb.jpg

which appears to have a USRE builder's stencil.  Kadee offers a car in the same number range with the same stencil:

http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/jpg/4527l.jpg

 The model is of a PS PS-1 40' box car.  I don't see any B&O cars built by PS in this number range.  Could this be a second hand car?  Curious.


Lee A. Gautreaux - The RailGoat

Lee A. Gautreaux





PRRT&HS books discounted!

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

Effective immediately, ALL PRRT&HS books are 20% off the list price, except 
- From the Midwest to Florida by Rail, 1875-1979, vol 1, discounted 25% to $82.50
From the Midwest to Florida by Rail, 1875-1979 - deeply discounted list price of $80
- From the Midwest to Florida by Rail, 1875-1979, volumes 1 and 2 bundled, $150
- The Pennsy In Chicago (already discounted)

All of these books can be ordered from the PRRT&HS eStore at 

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Vice President, PRRT&HS


Re: Bowser Covered Hoppers

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

 

Good point -- Still it would be interesting to know the approx time period
of this hijacking of the L&NE hoppers and how they ended up in California...
It's a bit late for construction of the Hoover Dam so were there any other dams
under construction in CA that could account for shipping cement 3,000 miles?


      THe use of the LNE cars would have been prior to 1944, when the Merced cement plant of Yosemite Portland Cement was closed. I have no reason to think that the cars were originally in California carrying cement from their home territory. Jack Burgess might know. I will copy him on this.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Early L&N Covered Hopper?

caboose9792@...
 

Ben, I suspect its the brake cylinder hanging out the end of the car. Also note the "B end" and "BR end" are called out on the side of the car, not things normally called out for day to day operation. The center panel to me looks like its been splattered with something and the sides are bowed in (look at the shadows) and on a hopper they normally bow out with use. I'd say the car is spotted for an accident investigation or claim issue.
 
Mark Rickert
 
 
 

In a message dated 8/5/2015 6:55:55 A.M. Central Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
Barry Bennett wrote:
"Wow, a house car roof and a funky brake system."

What's so weird about the brake system?  The ratchet hand brake?  Or the AB brake retrofit? There's nothing unusual about either.  Explain your reasoning.


Ben Hom