Date   

Re: KCS #20820 and 20834 missing from 1949 ORER?

Tim O'Connor
 

please note that these item numbers are for the cars with wrong road numbers (ie walthers proto)...
> I don't know what the item numbers were for the original proto 2000 cars was

Proto 2000 -- 30351 KCS #20855 kit

Other car numbers probably in that vicinity -- 3034x or 3035x

Tim O'


Re: Hacking (not the electronic kind)

mwbauers
 

I work in heavy industry manufacturing………….. ‘WE’ build giant mining shovels, so the welds are suitable for plate more than sheet welding, and that’s what I’m used to seeing.

I have handy a shot of a welded heavy duty flatcar. It has both heavy metal and light metal welding on its flanks.

But the car is less than 20 years old and not of this groups era. I like to think that such welding has not changed much since the 40’s. But its best if I do a  photo-study of cars of that vintage and earlier.

I’ll seek out some boxcars that I can make good close-up shots of………. I’ll attempt to get to a larger outdoor train museum next weekend and do several photo studies I’ve been meaning to get to. I’ll make certain to shoot the welds on several different car types and era for reference. I’m thinking of IRM for this.

I believe from what I’ve seen of even lighter welding over these many years is that the non-unform almost buttered look of welding seams is normal. I see this on the 60-70 year old overhead heavy-lift aisle cranes we built and still operate through-out our complex. While the girder sides are 1-2 inch think plate, the attached welded on brackets on them are more like 1/8-inch thick.

The only time a weld seam is almost smooth edged is if the welds are ground down for appearance and then the pits in the valleys of welding still appear unless puttied over before painting.

I base this on constant observation of nearly 43 years in manufacturing and memories of occasional poor welds that were rejected, arced out, and redone until they finally met standards.

Thus the Archer slightly uneven edges of their straight weld seam in even the smallest sizes are a good reflection of reality. I believe that the Archer seam line transfers are designed to replicate thin aircraft aluminum sheets joints that are flush rivet attached and then the rivets are ‘grouted’ over. Steel sheets would be joined quite differently from welding.

Today, even machine applied welds have imperfectly straight edges.

I am very suspicious that straight edged seam lines are much more of an artists representation of welded panels than the real appearance is. We may be used to this on our models as a limitation of die cutting. From my experience those simply are not real-world welds.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Aug 9, 2015, at 1:12 PM, Tony Thompson  wrote:

Tom Madden wrote:


> You don't want to use Archer's weld lines, you want their panel seams.

Mike Bauers responded:

 

Can you please expand on that comment?
Aren’t the seams welded ???


    I agree with Tom. The Archer weld lines are okay for repair welding but in HO scale (and yes, they do have a set labeled HO scale) they are pretty heavy for production welding. I did use the Archer weld lines on a storage tank which was going to be back from the aisle on my layout, but would not do so for a freight car of structure near the layout edge.


Simple tools used in freight car builds

Eric Hansmann
 

I worked through several box car builds recently and used a few uncommon tools;
a grab iron bending jig, a color wheel, and a model stand for painting. Details
are posted at my blog so modelers can use the ideas to move their projects
forward. Here's the link.
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/2015/08/06/simple-tools/



Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX


Re: KCS #20820 and 20834 missing from 1949 ORER?

bill stanton
 

please note that these item numbers are for the cars with wrong road numbers (ie walthers proto)...


I don't know what the item numbers were for the original proto 2000 cars was




From: STMFC@... on behalf of Bill Keene wakeene@... [STMFC]
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2015 2:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] KCS #20820 and 20834 missing from 1949 ORER?
 
 

Hello Group,


Thanks to all that responded to my request for info on these cars. I will keep an eye out for them at the local swap meets. One would be a good addition to the layout fleet. 

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Aug 9, 2015, at 2:18 PM, bill stanton bill_stanton60@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


920-102004 and 920-102003




From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of Bill Keene wakeene@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2015 9:54 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] KCS #20820 and 20834 missing from 1949 ORER?
 
 

Hello Group,


These cars sound interesting to me, if for no other reason than being 50-feet long and built within my modeling era. 

I just went to the Walthers web site and did a search but failed to find these cars. Can someone provide more information and/or an sku# to aid this old dog’s efforts?

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Aug 9, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Eric Lombard elombard@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Hello Everyone,

Can't explain the discrepancy but can say that:
Pullman-Standard built 20800-20809, 10 cars, in 1935 and 20851-20900, 50 cars, in 1941. From the time they are first listed in the ORER, both series maintain their series boundaries yearly in the ORER through 1-1962 and there are no cars renumbered out to other series. No cars are listed in the gap "20809 and 20850" during that time and spot checks at 1-1965 and 1-1970 do not indicate any cars in that gap either.  T'is possible though that examination of the ORER on a finer time scale after 1962 might reveal some cars renumbered into the gap for special service.

Cheers 


On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 5:19 PM, bill_stanton60@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Walthers proto has KCS auto cars 20820 and 20834 (blt 1941) but my 1949 ORER shows a gap between #20809 and 20851. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?









Re: Hacking (not the electronic kind)

North Model Railroad Supplies <nmrs@...>
 

Thanks Tim and Tom,

Now I can order some.

Cheers

Dave North

 

 


Re: KCS #20820 and 20834 missing from 1949 ORER?

Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hello Group,

Thanks to all that responded to my request for info on these cars. I will keep an eye out for them at the local swap meets. One would be a good addition to the layout fleet. 

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Aug 9, 2015, at 2:18 PM, bill stanton bill_stanton60@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


920-102004 and 920-102003




From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of Bill Keene wakeene@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2015 9:54 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] KCS #20820 and 20834 missing from 1949 ORER?
 
 

Hello Group,


These cars sound interesting to me, if for no other reason than being 50-feet long and built within my modeling era. 

I just went to the Walthers web site and did a search but failed to find these cars. Can someone provide more information and/or an sku# to aid this old dog’s efforts?

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Aug 9, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Eric Lombard elombard@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Hello Everyone,

Can't explain the discrepancy but can say that:
Pullman-Standard built 20800-20809, 10 cars, in 1935 and 20851-20900, 50 cars, in 1941. From the time they are first listed in the ORER, both series maintain their series boundaries yearly in the ORER through 1-1962 and there are no cars renumbered out to other series. No cars are listed in the gap "20809 and 20850" during that time and spot checks at 1-1965 and 1-1970 do not indicate any cars in that gap either.  T'is possible though that examination of the ORER on a finer time scale after 1962 might reveal some cars renumbered into the gap for special service.

Cheers 


On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 5:19 PM, bill_stanton60@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Walthers proto has KCS auto cars 20820 and 20834 (blt 1941) but my 1949 ORER shows a gap between #20809 and 20851. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?









Re: KCS #20820 and 20834 missing from 1949 ORER?

bill stanton
 

920-102004 and 920-102003




From: STMFC@... on behalf of Bill Keene wakeene@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2015 9:54 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] KCS #20820 and 20834 missing from 1949 ORER?
 
 

Hello Group,


These cars sound interesting to me, if for no other reason than being 50-feet long and built within my modeling era. 

I just went to the Walthers web site and did a search but failed to find these cars. Can someone provide more information and/or an sku# to aid this old dog’s efforts?

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Aug 9, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Eric Lombard elombard@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Hello Everyone,

Can't explain the discrepancy but can say that:
Pullman-Standard built 20800-20809, 10 cars, in 1935 and 20851-20900, 50 cars, in 1941. From the time they are first listed in the ORER, both series maintain their series boundaries yearly in the ORER through 1-1962 and there are no cars renumbered out to other series. No cars are listed in the gap "20809 and 20850" during that time and spot checks at 1-1965 and 1-1970 do not indicate any cars in that gap either.  T'is possible though that examination of the ORER on a finer time scale after 1962 might reveal some cars renumbered into the gap for special service.

Cheers 


On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 5:19 PM, bill_stanton60@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Walthers proto has KCS auto cars 20820 and 20834 (blt 1941) but my 1949 ORER shows a gap between #20809 and 20851. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?






Re: vacuum

mwbauers
 

I looked and found…….

https://www.flinnsci.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=14079

“A water aspirator is an inexpensive and dependable source of moderate vacuum in the laboratory. As the water rushes past a side arm aperture, a partial vacuum is formed. The lowest approximate pressure that can be achieved with this device is 10 mm of mercury or 10 torr.

When you are pricing aspirators remember some models that sell for less will not have a built-in check valve. Both of the models we sell do; thus eliminating the need for a trap. Water inlet diameter is 3/8" NPT.”

About $18

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Aug 9, 2015, at 10:31 AM, ed_mines wrote:


Al, have you considered using an old fashioned laboratory aspirator, a device which uses flowing water to produce a vacuum?



How 'bout a vacuum cleaner?



Ed Mines


Re: PRR X29D box car questions

Nathan Obermeyer
 

Ben,

Thank you for the information. Any chance that you know the PC number?

Thanks!
Nate


Re: Hacking (not the electronic kind)

Tom Madden
 

> What is/are the parts number/s for Archer panel seams please?

> I can’t find them in their catalog.

> Cheers

> Dave North


They are under the Aircraft category as "Raised Panel Lines, Various Scales". Part #AR88013.


I use them on my master patterns to define the edges of panels that are coplanar. This photo shows how I used them to define the edges between the clerestories and the AC ducts on some heavyweight Pullman roof patterns. The :

http://www.pullmanproject.com/3979-3.JPG


Archer's primary market is military modelers, and their weld beads look (to my eye) just too rough and rugged for HO freight cars. Like they'd be OK for joining heavy steel armor plates, but not thin car side sheets.  


Tom Madden


Re: Hacking (not the electronic kind)

mwbauers
 

I just don’t recognize those panel lines as being weld-line-realistic. The lines are too perfect edged for a weld face.

Are the cars welded on the backside of the body panels ????? That would make the perfect edged seam lines the right ones to use.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Aug 9, 2015, at 3:14 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


Dave, Google is your friend.

http://www.archertransfers.com/AR88013.html


> You don't want to use Archer's weld lines, you want their panel seams.
> Tom Madden


Hi Tom,
What is/are the parts number/s for Archer panel seams please?
I can’t find them in their catalog.
Cheers
Dave North


Re: Hacking (not the electronic kind)

Tim O'Connor
 


Dave, Google is your friend.

http://www.archertransfers.com/AR88013.html


  > You don't want to use Archer's weld lines, you want their panel seams.
  > Tom Madden


 Hi Tom,
 What is/are the parts number/s for Archer panel seams please?
 I can�t find them in their catalog.
 Cheers
 Dave North


Re: KCS #20820 and 20834 missing from 1949 ORER?

Tim O'Connor
 


I have a Proto 2000 (pre-Walthers) KCS #20855 -- which is a correct number.
I think it was made back when Larry Grubb was still running the show.

I hate to malign the integrity of the illustrious research department at Walthers
but it looks like they made an error in this case.

Tim O'Connor




Pullman-Standard built 20800-20809, 10 cars, in 1935 and 20851-20900, 50 cars, in 1941. From the time they are first listed in the ORER, both series maintain their series boundaries yearly in the ORER through 1-1962 and there are no cars renumbered out to other series. No cars are listed in the gap "20809 and 20850" during that time and spot checks at 1-1965 and 1-1970 do not indicate any cars in that gap either. T'is possible though that examination of the ORER on a finer time scale after 1962 might reveal some cars renumbered into the gap for special service.

Cheers

Eric Lombard


 > Walthers proto has KCS auto cars 20820 and 20834 (blt 1941) but my 1949 ORER shows
 > a gap between #20809 and 20851. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?


Re: Hacking (not the electronic kind)

North Model Railroad Supplies <nmrs@...>
 

You don't want to use Archer's weld lines, you want their panel seams.
Tom Madden

Hi Tom,

What is/are the parts number/s for Archer panel seams please?

I can’t find them in their catalog.

Cheers

Dave North

 


Re: Photo Of Assorted Boxcars

rwitt_2000
 

Scott, I believe your comments belong in this thread ...

"From the curved loading tracks I didn't think it was an NYC yard, but it surprises me to see several NYC Pacemaker boxcars on the Lackawanna. And yes, my western-trained eyes were immediately focused on the Santa Fe Bx-11/12. Unfortunately the image is not sharp enough to read the number. I have one of Al's original kits for this car. I recently pulled it out to get back to work on it.

Scott Chatfield"


FWIW there seems to be too many NYC box cars not to be a NYC facility. Except for the ATSF box car all the remaining ones in the foreground are NYC. - Bob Witt


Re: Hacking (not the electronic kind)

Greg Martin
 

Ron and all,
 
As Ben knows I don't use and don't promote the use of seams or weld beads when I model welded cars as I believe that the seams become too exaggerated. I use a technique where you first determine the panel line and mark it with a graphite pencil line and then mark a second line immediately next to it with a complimentary color (orange for Freight car color) and let the minds eye take care of the rest. It works...
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
Ron Merrick writes:

"That's a useful suggestion.  I hadn't seen those before, perhaps because of where they are listed.

I parted with my last Front Range cars a few weeks ago, courtesy of someone on this list who has a use for them.  But believe me, I have plenty of scrap undec freight car bodies to practice on.

Thanks for all the comments, guys.  I believe I've received a consensus, so now I'm going back to the workbench.
 


Re: Front Range

Greg Martin
 

The ACCURAIL 5200  and the Front Range 5200 are very similar cars. The difference being one has a removable underframe the other the roof. 
 
The difficulty is the ends being the slender tapered Dreadnaught end, at least fro our era here. But as Ed Hawkins pointed out there are some prototypes.  I own both the ACCURAIL version and the Front Range version and unless I am willing to compromise on the ends I will be replacing them. OR model in the baby-boom era and I am not opposed to that.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
Tim writes:


I've got one of the D&RGW cars under construction on my workbench. Beautiful
gold & silver cars. I've decided to remove the floor and replace it with the
vastly superior Accurail underframe -- which happened to be designed to fit
the old Front Range bodies.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Hacking (not the electronic kind)

Tony Thompson
 

Tom Madden wrote:

> You don't want to use Archer's weld lines, you want their panel seams.

Mike Bauers responded:

 

Can you please expand on that comment?
Aren’t the seams welded ???


    I agree with Tom. The Archer weld lines are okay for repair welding but in HO scale (and yes, they do have a set labeled HO scale) they are pretty heavy for production welding. I did use the Archer weld lines on a storage tank which was going to be back from the aisle on my layout, but would not do so for a freight car of structure near the layout edge.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: SP Ogden Yard 50s

Jim Betz
 


   ... and the reefers in the 2nd track from the left ... 


Re: SP Ogden Yard 50s

Jim Betz
 


  the same thing is true for the roof walks on the 7 stock cars ...

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