Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

Charles Peck

You might also keep in mind that your "ruling grade" might not needfully be in
sight on your layout. It might be over the horizon towards the next division point.
Chuck Peck

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 10:59 AM, jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC] wrote:
Nelson,

Often using any kind of "prototypical practice/methods" results in
calculations
that don't really "work" for the layout.  At the very minimum you will
have to
make some decisions that "map" the horsepower in the locos to the trains you
are able to run on your layout - because, among other reasons, the prototype
ratings don't apply directly to our model trains.
I'm saying that using the same formulas that were used on the prototype
often results in 'errors' when applied to our layouts.

****

Another approach is to do -actual- motive power measurements ... on
This is easily done by first finding the ruling grade and then pulling a
'typical' train
up that grade and changing the number of cars until the loco handles it
(with? or
without? any slipping is up to you/the layout owner).
Finally - create "locomotive cards" that are the same size as your
car cards and
include the rating/pulling power for the loco.  It helps if all of the
cars on the
layout are the same weight (for the same size car).  Using a rating that
is right
on the edge of being the max the loco can carry may result in "emergency
calls
for a helper" which although fun can seriously affect the 'flow' of the
Op (so
decide whether or not you want this to happen and set your ratings based
upon
that decision).  The loco card "travels with the loco/train" just like
the car cards -
so it is always available to anyone (the YM/hostler?) who is making the
decisions
about what power to use on the trains.  (Many layouts also have "caboose
cards".)
Many layouts include specifying the locos that will be used on trains
that are
made up during the session in the 'packets of stuff' that are used to
assign the
trains to operators and/or given to the yards to use to make up the
train(s).

Most layouts do not have much capability for/include in the
operations the
ability to add helpers for "Just The Grade(s)" ... and so the motive
power assigned
to the train is done in the originating yard or staging.
With this approach what you do is to "assign enough power for the
train to get
itself over the RR".  And, usually, the layout owner decides to not
specify different
power requirements for different directions (even if that is possible) -
if for no
other reason than to keep the number of locos 'balanced' on the ends/in the
yards.  But some Ops include "light power moves" to re-balance.  *G*

****

I operate on a lot of different layouts.  One of them has a helper
district and
many of the trains truly -require- a helper in order to get up the
won't make it without one.  The way the Op works is that the train pulls
up to
the departure point in the yard/town, the helper is added (and at the
correct
placement/specified place in the train), and then clearance to proceed
is gotten.
At the top of the grade the helpers are cut off and the train proceeds
without
them.  This is an "all steam" Ops (OK, only mostly steam) and so each
locomotive
has its own crew/engineer (no consisting with the head end).

****

Helper operations can be/are a lot of fun - but in order to do them
effectively you may have to add Ops jobs such as "hostler" and "Helper
Engineer(s)" ... and you also have to allow time in the schedule to
helpers.  Luckily, it is usually fairly easy to find a window where a
helper/helper
set can be returned back down the hill - where it goes into the engine
facility
to wait for its next assignment.  *Great Stuff!!!*
- Jim B.

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Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

Jim Betz

Nelson,

Often using any kind of "prototypical practice/methods" results in calculations
that don't really "work" for the layout. At the very minimum you will have to
make some decisions that "map" the horsepower in the locos to the trains you
are able to run on your layout - because, among other reasons, the prototype
ratings don't apply directly to our model trains.
I'm saying that using the same formulas that were used on the prototype
often results in 'errors' when applied to our layouts.

****

Another approach is to do -actual- motive power measurements ... on your layout.
This is easily done by first finding the ruling grade and then pulling a 'typical' train
up that grade and changing the number of cars until the loco handles it (with? or
without? any slipping is up to you/the layout owner).
Finally - create "locomotive cards" that are the same size as your car cards and
include the rating/pulling power for the loco. It helps if all of the cars on the
layout are the same weight (for the same size car). Using a rating that is right
on the edge of being the max the loco can carry may result in "emergency calls
for a helper" which although fun can seriously affect the 'flow' of the Op (so
decide whether or not you want this to happen and set your ratings based upon
that decision). The loco card "travels with the loco/train" just like the car cards -
so it is always available to anyone (the YM/hostler?) who is making the decisions
about what power to use on the trains. (Many layouts also have "caboose cards".)
Many layouts include specifying the locos that will be used on trains that are
made up during the session in the 'packets of stuff' that are used to assign the
trains to operators and/or given to the yards to use to make up the train(s).

Most layouts do not have much capability for/include in the operations the
ability to add helpers for "Just The Grade(s)" ... and so the motive power assigned
to the train is done in the originating yard or staging.
With this approach what you do is to "assign enough power for the train to get
itself over the RR". And, usually, the layout owner decides to not specify different
power requirements for different directions (even if that is possible) - if for no
other reason than to keep the number of locos 'balanced' on the ends/in the
yards. But some Ops include "light power moves" to re-balance. *G*

****

I operate on a lot of different layouts. One of them has a helper district and
many of the trains truly -require- a helper in order to get up the grade. They
won't make it without one. The way the Op works is that the train pulls up to
the departure point in the yard/town, the helper is added (and at the correct
placement/specified place in the train), and then clearance to proceed is gotten.
At the top of the grade the helpers are cut off and the train proceeds without
them. This is an "all steam" Ops (OK, only mostly steam) and so each locomotive
has its own crew/engineer (no consisting with the head end).

****

Helper operations can be/are a lot of fun - but in order to do them
effectively you may have to add Ops jobs such as "hostler" and "Helper
Engineer(s)" ... and you also have to allow time in the schedule to add/remove
helpers. Luckily, it is usually fairly easy to find a window where a helper/helper
set can be returned back down the hill - where it goes into the engine facility
to wait for its next assignment. *Great Stuff!!!*
- Jim B.

Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>

Thanks for the link to Al Klug's site. I'll play with the calculator to see how it might be used in model railroad operation.

Nelson Moyer

On Aug 15, 2015, at 12:41 AM, "jcdworkingonthenp@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

I agree with Bruce on his statements regarding the employees timetables.  I believe that the dispatcher has the final say on signing off on the power assigned.  The wind and temperature are also a factor. The dispatchers train sheets have blanks for this data that is typically filled in.

Nelson, for more data look for the website/blogsite Tales from the Krug

It has some interesting data however out of respect for the sheriff, I will note the date frame of the site well post dates this sites 1960 cut off. Al Krug is an interesting railroader and has put some useful data on the site.
Jim Dick - St. Paul, MN

Re: era of silver Mobilgas ICC-103 tank cars

Tim O'Connor

> When was the silver Mobilgas scheme in use?
> Scott Chatfield

Never, as far as I know -- I've only seen black tank cars, and red tank cars,
with the "Mobilgas" logo.

However some tank TRUCKS appear to have been painted this way
http://assets.finda.co.nz/images/thumb/b/v/1/4j8bv1/602x381/waitomo-petroleum-ltd.jpg

Tim O'

Re: era of silver Mobilgas ICC-103 tank cars

riverman_vt@...

Hi Scott,

My copy of Ted Culotta's tank car book being closer at hand than
yours I have just looked for the Mobil tank car in silver and lettered
as you describe. Unfortunately, as I'd like to see one myself, there
do not appear to be any in the book. There are several cars for
Texaco in a silver base color but no Mobilgas cars. Only black
cars with the large "Mobilgas" in white over the length of the
tank.

Sorry I can't offer something better, Don Valentine

Re: US coal hoppers in Canada

riverman_vt@...

John,

Was it not fairly common to see carloads of coal from both the NYC and D&H in
southwestern Quebec at least with each of those two roads having their own line
to at least Montreal? Also, would it be save to assume that most coal coming from
Nova Scotia would have come in CNR hoppers? I do not know if the S&L had any
hoppers that were used interline service or not but with Springhill and the Cape
Breton areas both being connected to the outside rail world only by the CNR would
expect few other hoppers were used. Your thoughts?

Thanks, Don Valentine

Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

np328

I agree with Bruce on his statements regarding the employees timetables.  I believe that the dispatcher has the final say on signing off on the power assigned.  The wind and temperature are also a factor. The dispatchers train sheets have blanks for this data that is typically filled in.

Nelson, for more data look for the website/blogsite Tales from the Krug

It has some interesting data however out of respect for the sheriff, I will note the date frame of the site well post dates this sites 1960 cut off. Al Krug is an interesting railroader and has put some useful data on the site.
Jim Dick - St. Paul, MN

era of silver Mobilgas ICC-103 tank cars

D. Scott Chatfield

Over the years I've picked up several old "trainset quality" tank cars that have features or appearance noticably different from the Athearn single-dome tank car that you see _way_ too many of on most layouts. My goal was, and still is, to turn them into MofW tank cars for mine or friends' layouts, which are all post-1960 so that's outside the scope of this list. However, one of my finds was a silver Mobilgas ICC-103 8,000g tank of unknown manufacturer, although this shot of a more recent Mantua offering seems to be from the same mold:

http://web4.hobbylinc.com/gr/csm/csm732694_285.jpg

When was the silver Mobilgas scheme in use? The large Mobilgas black and the horses flanking it are red of course. Since I've loaned my Culotta steam-era tank car book to a friend, I can't look through it for any likely candidates. There aren't any in Kincaid's recent Tank Car Color Guide.

Tanks, er, thanks.....

Scott Chatfield

Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

John Larkin

It's been a long hot day but my math says a 110 car train of 286,000 lb hoppers would probably weigh in at 7800-7900 tons.  Given 3 units (2 front, 1 back) generating 12,000 hp, that more like 1.5 hp/ton. It's been many years (1982) but I seem to remember 4hp/ton being quite good for a hotshot running from North Platte to the Left Coast.

John Larkin

On Friday, August 14, 2015 8:03 PM, "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]" wrote:

Bill

My bad again -- I was quoting lbs-TE per ton not horsepower !!

So a loco with 22,500 lbs continuous TE on a 2% grade could lift 500 tons,
or about 10 "average" STMFC era freight cars.

The SP for example would assign five 2-10-2's to lift 50 car trains north
of Dunsmuir CA. A cab forward could take almost twice as much as a 2-10-2.
An ABBA F set could lift about twice as much as one cab forward.

On flat lands of course relative performance was very different than on

Tim O'

At 8/14/2015 03:00 PM Friday, bill Vaughn wrote:
>Rules of thumb --
>
> 5 hp/ton on 0% grade (flat land)
> 25 hp/ton on 1% grade
> 45 hp/ton on 2% grade
> 65 hp/ton of 3% grade
>
>Tim I just retired off a class 1 mountain grade, I wish you had assigned us power. I have never seen anything near 25 hpt even on the hottest of trains. More like 4 to 5 hpt.
>
>Bill Vaughn

Re: Hopper car Service Orders

lstt100

The open top stats are for hoppers and gondolas and do not include flatcars.

I do not have breakdown for each individual railroad.

Dan Holbrook

Re: Hopper car Service Orders

Tim O'Connor

Perhaps, Dennis, but you're missing the point. The B&A was receiving
loaded cars all the time. If it were missing 200 of its own cars, it
could simply hang on to 200 foreign cars. Problem solved. CSD be damned.

Tim O'Connor

After all, the originator is sending loaded cars all the time to their
destinations -- So what logic would there be for hoarding cars?"

===============
To protect other business. Coal isn't the only thing that gets loaded
in hoppers. Suppose the hypothetical East & West railroad has a trap
rock quarry, but owns no hoppers. To supply cars, they grab any empty
coal hopper ostensibly to load it toward home... but the railroads
didn't have a lot of control over where the customer actually loaded
the car to, and so after the customer loaded all the coal cars to
points on the E&W, they ask for more empty cars, and the E&W obliges
with more empty foreign coal cars. To the car owner it looks like
their cars are going to the E&W and never returning, because that's
exactly what is happening.

The typical response was to complain to the AAR That the E&W should
buy sufficient hoppers to cover their traffic, but the AAR did not
have any authority to order anyone to buy cars... they best they
could do is issue these car service orders that directed empties be
returned immediately rather than re-loaded.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

Tim O'Connor

Bill

My bad again -- I was quoting lbs-TE per ton not horsepower !!

So a loco with 22,500 lbs continuous TE on a 2% grade could lift 500 tons,
or about 10 "average" STMFC era freight cars.

The SP for example would assign five 2-10-2's to lift 50 car trains north
of Dunsmuir CA. A cab forward could take almost twice as much as a 2-10-2.
An ABBA F set could lift about twice as much as one cab forward.

On flat lands of course relative performance was very different than on

Tim O'

At 8/14/2015 03:00 PM Friday, bill Vaughn wrote:
Rules of thumb --

5 hp/ton on 0% grade (flat land)
25 hp/ton on 1% grade
45 hp/ton on 2% grade
65 hp/ton of 3% grade

Tim I just retired off a class 1 mountain grade, I wish you had assigned us power. I have never seen anything near 25 hpt even on the hottest of trains. More like 4 to 5 hpt.

Bill Vaughn

Roster of UTLX Cars circa Jan 1952

palmettoltd82

Gents

Found this UTLX roster while searching through some old CDs.  Provides a nice breakdown of the UTLX fleet by car number, class, estimated capacity, number of compartments, etc.  Hopefully will be helpful to modelers and manufacturers alike. Enjoy.

Buddy Hill

Ravenel, SC

New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /UTLX 1-1952 TANK CAR LIST.pdf
Uploaded by : palmettoltd82 <palmettoLTD@hotmail.com>
Description : A breakdown of the UTLX roster by car number, class, estimated capacity in gallons, number of compartments, and type of heating system.

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/files/UTLX%201-1952%20TANK%20CAR%20LIST.pdf

https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&;y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398

Regards,

palmettoltd82 <palmettoLTD@hotmail.com>

Re: Hopper car Service Orders

Dennis Storzek

For some reason the STMFC list says my account is bouncing (I don't even take the list via e-mail?) so I'll try this from a different account:

Tim O'Connor said:

"I was thinking about what someone said about cars going offline and
never returning, but it didn't make sense to me.

After all, the originator is sending loaded cars all the time to their
destinations -- So what logic would there be for hoarding cars?"

===============
To protect other business. Coal isn't the only thing that gets loaded in hoppers. Suppose the hypothetical East & West railroad has a trap rock quarry, but owns no hoppers. To supply cars, they grab any empty coal hopper ostensibly to load it toward home... but the railroads didn't have a lot of control over where the customer actually loaded the car to, and so after the customer loaded all the coal cars to points on the E&W, they ask for more empty cars, and the E&W obliges with more empty foreign coal cars. To the car owner it looks like their cars are going to the E&W and never returning, because that's exactly what is happening.

The typical response was to complain to the AAR That the E&W should buy sufficient hoppers to cover their traffic, but the AAR did not have any authority to order anyone to buy cars... they best they could do is issue these car service orders that directed empties be returned immediately rather than re-loaded.

Dennis Storzek
Dennis Storzek

US coal hoppers in Canada

John Riddell

As of 1914, coal  for railway consumption in Ontario, Manitoba and eastern Saskatchewan  was imported from US mines. CP had a major financial interest in Cambridge Collieries of Cambridge, Ohio. Photos of trains and loco coaling facilities in the above regions commonly show hoppers of  PRR, NYC, Lehigh Valley, C&O, B&O, Reading, Virginian and Illinois Central.

During the Great Lakes navigation season, coal was often imported by ship and offloaded at ports on Lake Ontario, Georgian Bay and Lake Superior such as Prescott, Cobourg, Port Stanley, Port Maitland, Port Burwell, Britt, Little Current, Depot Harbour, Sault Ste. Marie,  Michipicoten, Port Arthur and Fort William. CN or CP hoppers were used to ship the offloaded coal from those ports. During the winter when ships were laid up coal was imported by rail.

As of 1914, coal for railway use west of  approximately Moose Jaw, Saskatoon and North Battleford was obtained from mines in Alberta and BC.  It would be rare to see a US coal hopper west of Port Arthur, Fort William.

Coal for railway use east of  approximately Cornwall, Ontario and Lachute, Quebec was obtained from mines in Nova Scotia.  It would be rare to see a US coal hopper east of those points.

All of this changed over time of course as the use of coal changed.

John Riddell

Re: St Louis RPM

golden1014

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the positive comments.  I'll take your request for more clinics to the boys and we'll talk about how we can add a few more next year.

Ideally I'd like to add a second clinic room, but only add a few more clinics.  The rest of the time I'd like to reserve the room for group meetings, like a P48 meeting, perhaps more slide shows, a historical society symposium, etc.

John

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL

Re: build, paint, decal, weather - a five year project for six cars

genegreen1942@...

Eric,
Aren't you afraid that, by rushing the project as you did, quality will suffer.
Gene Green

Re: St Louis RPM Photo's

golden1014

Awesome Jim--we'll look for you next year.  Bring plenty of STMFC models!

John Golden
STL RPM Host

Re: CANADIAN NATIONAL 8 hatch reefers

John Riddell

JP,

By the way, True Line Trains offers excellent ready-to-run models of the 8-hatch reefers.  This says the time from building the F&C kits.

A review of the similar TLT ready-to-run models of CPR reefers was published in the October 2012 RMC. The CPR reefers were similar – but not identical – to the CNR reefers.

John Riddell

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