Date   

New England Alcohol Company

John Riba
 

Hello Everyone,

 I am building a 7 1/2" gauge tank car"New England Alcohol Company #32." My 1940 Equipment Register lists 10 cars. The 1960 ORER does not list the company. I found a patent for distilling dated 1940 and a lawsuit for non payment that went to 1949. Does anyone have more information on this company. When did the ORER stop listing the company? Thanks!

John Riba



Re: Armour Refrigerator Line, ca 1930-1935

Tony Thompson
 

Don Strack wrote:

 
I am researching UP's use of Armour Yellow as the color for its Streamliner passenger trains, beginning in 1934. The color, later referred to as C.S. 22, No. 181, is not on UP's Common Standard (C.S.) color chart dated November 1930. This suggests that it was not a color UP used prior to that time . . .

     When we examined the 1920s PFE yellow color chip (with the help of a UP graphic designer in Omaha), we found it was pretty close to contemporary Armour Yellow, though not called that. Might UP have had some other name for the color prior to 1930? Or was it strictly a PFE color?


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: St Louis RPM Photo's

Rich Yoder
 

Hi All,

There was a gentleman there promoting the C&EI. I would like to contact him. Can someone help me connect with him and please reply off line?
Thanks. Sincerely,

Rich Yoder

oscale48@comcast.net <mailto:oscale48@comcast.net>





From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 12:05 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] St Louis RPM Photo's








This may show what most of us missed:



2015 St. Louis RPM Meet <https://www.flickr.com/photos/35369592@N06/sets/72157656596137919>




<https://www.flickr.com/photos/35369592@N06/sets/72157656596137919/show> 2015 St. Louis RPM Meet

golden1014's 2015 St. Louis RPM Meet set




<https://www.flickr.com/photos/35369592@N06/sets/72157656596137919/show> View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo





Found on the British RMWeb board





Ken Adams

Walnut Creek CA


Armour Refrigerator Line, ca 1930-1935

Don Strack
 

I have Westerfield's ORER on CD for both 1930 and 1935. Am I reading them right, that Armour Refrigerator Line had 11,000 cars, numbered ARLX 6000-16999?


I am researching UP's use of Armour Yellow as the color for its Streamliner passenger trains, beginning in 1934. The color, later referred to as C.S. 22, No. 181, is not on UP's Common Standard (C.S.) color chart dated November 1930. This suggests that it was not a color UP used prior to that time, so I was wondering how many reefer cars Armour had in service at the time. I guess the answer is 11,000 +/-.


Don Strack 


St. Louis RPM photos

Ben J. De Vries <bjdevries01@...>
 

One of these photos shows work of Aaron Germundson with resin models of CB&Q SM-16
stockcars in progress. I am wondering if these models are/will be available to
others because I would like to have 1 or 2 in my collection also. Does anyone know.?
Ben de Vries, the Netherlands

Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPad


Re: US coal hoppers in Canada

Walter Cox
 

Hi Don,
As far as I know Nova Scotia did not produce anthracite so almost any of the anthracite lines" hoppers plus any other available empty hoppers, could have been seen in  Ontario and all of Quebec.
Walt
 
 

In a message dated 8/15/2015 12:13:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
   

     


Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

devansprr
 

Prototype methods and basis for locomotive ratings and assignments appear to vary widely by railroad, division, and era.

I would strongly urge checking into your prototype's methods for the location and era of interest. I have not investigated widely, but several have researched the PRR's steam era practice and it was pretty sophisticated, especially on divisions where stalled trains could not be tolerated due to the backup and delay of other trains. I have not found any evidence that dispatchers had any input to locomotive selection on the PRR - I believe it was enforced by traffic managers and road foreman.

For each division and terminal pair the PRR would provide a tonnage rating for each class of locomotive, with further breakdowns for priority freights versus "mineral" extras. Some of the PRR's published books even report the location of the ruling grade and the minimum speed that the RR expected trains to sustain on that grade.

The PRR did have a "de-rating" scheme for low temperatures and wet rail, but not, as far as I know, for the wind. But I have read on the OpSig group that modern railroads crossing the midwest have found wind direction and speed to play havoc with the ratings on double-stacks (obviously past our era) so they do have correction factors for those conditions. Conversely, with modern roller bearings, the impact of temperature on train drag is now much less.

For the prototype, the total elevation change of the grade can be important, since the prototype "enjoys" the benefits of trading momentum for changes in elevation. For the prototype, the momentum at 60 miles an hour can be traded for a climb of over 100 feet.

Not so for the modeler, where, in HO, the momentum of 60 scale mph translates to a climb of only 3/8 of a real inch. Even worse in N-Scale (no way to scale gravity). This is why it is so important to avoid short lengths of steeper than ruling grade on model railroads. A long 2% grade with a few feet of 2.5% grade will actually have a ruling grade of 2.5%, not 2%.

Conversely the PRR had several 25 foot high flyovers on their main line where starting the flyover at track speed would knock less than 20 mph off the train's speed, without changing the throttle. Such flyovers could actually have pretty steep grades, since the momentum effect doesn't care about the grade, only the change in elevation. Unfortunately this effect is not available to modelers, although, based on recent news reports, an G scale layout on Pluto might have close to G Scale gravity, but not HO - Pluto is still much too big for HO scale gravity ;-)

For HO model railroads, in general steam locomotives can never match their prototype ratings if pulling cars weighted to the NMRA RP, while diesels can often pull more than their prototype cousins. Within the PRR modeling community, Bowser steam locomotives do have a reputation for breaking that general statement, while their Kato based F-units significantly outperform the prototypes..

I would note I have a good friend who has outstanding track work, and was weighted most of his fleet to only 2/3 to 3/4 of NMRA RP, yet still has very reliable operations. That, combined with very free rolling trucks, has enabled his HO steam locomotives to come closer to prototype performance. (Remember that a large prototype steam locomotive on a 2% grade might be rated at less than twenty 50 ton (capacity) cars)

And there has been debate over the years on the LDSig group concerning curve compensation and grades. Best to test model equipment when designing a layout, although for diesels, there is little to worry about. Steam is the exact opposite, as those who try to run long steam trains on steep grades usually find out. Lots of discussion on this topic in the past on the LDSig and OpSig Yahoo groups, which I would recommend for those designing STMFC era layouts, especially those who plan to run steam on the head-end.

Dave Evans



---In STMFC@..., <jcdworkingonthenp@...> wrote :

I agree with Bruce on his statements regarding the employees timetables.  I believe that the dispatcher has the final say on signing off on the power assigned.  The wind and temperature are also a factor. The dispatchers train sheets have blanks for this data that is typically filled in.

Nelson, for more data look for the website/blogsite Tales from the Krug

 





It has some interesting data however out of respect for the sheriff, I will note the date frame of the site well post dates this sites 1960 cut off. Al Krug is an interesting railroader and has put some useful data on the site.  
                                                                                                       Jim Dick - St. Paul, MN


era of silver Mobilgas ICC-103 tank cars

Andy Carlson
 

I recall there was a photo of a Mobilgas tank car painted silver with large Mobilgas lettering, in one of Ted Culotta's ebay sales a few weeks ago. 

Jack Mullen

Anyone wishing a scan of that photo, I captured the Ted Cullotta WSRX 1022, a Standard tank car with a repack date of 1939, and I could send it to anyone requesting it. It is a charatablly large file size--thanks Ted for doing us non-purchasers this kind favor.

It is definitely silver, the photo is of high quality.
Ask off-list please at
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


 




Re: era of silver Mobilgas ICC-103 tank cars

Jack Mullen
 

I recall there was a photo of a Mobilgas tank car painted silver with large Mobilgas lettering, in one of Ted Culotta's ebay sales a few weeks ago. 

Jack Mullen



Re: Hopper car Service Orders

rwitt_2000
 

 Dan, I thought that flat cars were not treated as "open-top" in your data, but I wasn't sure. - Bob Witt


Fw: Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

Mikebrock
 

From Nelson Moyer:
 

I had another reply failure, so here’s the text of the failed message:

In my case, the ruling grade of 2% is in the helix, so it’s out of sight, over the horizon, over the rainbow, or whatever. I’ve already done pulling power on my locomotives on a straight 2% grade to get an idea of how many NMRA specification weighted cars they can pull. I don’t have the helix built yet, so I can’t repeat the tests on the helix curve.

I have the option of using helpers on the helix, or doubling the hill, which may be necessary when using steam power. There is a helper pocket at the bottom of the helix, and a passing track at the top of the helix.

Nelson Moyer


Re: US coal hoppers in Canada

cptracks
 

Ian Wilson's books have photos of US coal hoppers in various Ontario locations in the '50's. NYC for sure.
 
Colin Riley



From: "riverman_vt@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2015 5:59 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: US coal hoppers in Canada

 
John,

     Was it not fairly common to see carloads of coal from both the NYC and D&H in
southwestern Quebec at least with each of those two roads having their own line
to at least Montreal? Also, would it be save to assume that most coal coming from
Nova Scotia would have come in CNR hoppers? I do not know if the S&L had any
hoppers that were used interline service or not but with Springhill and the Cape
Breton areas both being connected to the outside rail world only by the CNR would 
expect few other hoppers were used. Your thoughts?

Thanks, Don Valentine



Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

John Larkin
 

Remember that prototype tonnage ratings were done by first estimating how many tons a locomotive could pull over the assigned district, then often modifying the rating when experience dictated a change was necessary.  Some steam engines simply steamed and pulled better than anticipated and tonnage ratings would increase.  Thus the idea of just adding cars until the train stalls is essentially what was done on the prototype (yardmasters who needed to get rid of the last two cars on a track, for example)
and should work equally well on models, especially if there are somewhat uniform weights involved.

John Larkin



On Saturday, August 15, 2015 10:25 AM, "'Nelson Moyer' ku0a@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
I had another reply failure, so here’s the text of the failed message:
 
In my case, the ruling grade of 2% is in the helix, so it’s out of sight, over the horizon, over the rainbow, or whatever. I’ve already done pulling power on my locomotives on a straight 2% grade to get an idea of how many NMRA specification weighted cars they can pull. I don’t have the helix built yet, so I can’t repeat the tests on the helix curve.
 
I have the option of using helpers on the helix, or doubling the hill, which may be necessary when using steam power. There is a helper pocket at the bottom of the helix, and a passing track at the top of the helix.
 
Nelson Moyer
 



Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
 

I had another reply failure, so here’s the text of the failed message:

 

In my case, the ruling grade of 2% is in the helix, so it’s out of sight, over the horizon, over the rainbow, or whatever. I’ve already done pulling power on my locomotives on a straight 2% grade to get an idea of how many NMRA specification weighted cars they can pull. I don’t have the helix built yet, so I can’t repeat the tests on the helix curve.

 

I have the option of using helpers on the helix, or doubling the hill, which may be necessary when using steam power. There is a helper pocket at the bottom of the helix, and a passing track at the top of the helix.

 

Nelson Moyer

 


Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

Charles Peck
 

You might also keep in mind that your "ruling grade" might not needfully be in
sight on your layout. It might be over the horizon towards the next division point.
Chuck Peck

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 10:59 AM, jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
Nelson,

   Often using any kind of "prototypical practice/methods" results in
calculations
that don't really "work" for the layout.  At the very minimum you will
have to
make some decisions that "map" the horsepower in the locos to the trains you
are able to run on your layout - because, among other reasons, the prototype
ratings don't apply directly to our model trains.
   I'm saying that using the same formulas that were used on the prototype
often results in 'errors' when applied to our layouts.

                                                               ****

   Another approach is to do -actual- motive power measurements ... on
your layout.
This is easily done by first finding the ruling grade and then pulling a
'typical' train
up that grade and changing the number of cars until the loco handles it
(with? or
without? any slipping is up to you/the layout owner).
   Finally - create "locomotive cards" that are the same size as your
car cards and
include the rating/pulling power for the loco.  It helps if all of the
cars on the
layout are the same weight (for the same size car).  Using a rating that
is right
on the edge of being the max the loco can carry may result in "emergency
calls
for a helper" which although fun can seriously affect the 'flow' of the
Op (so
decide whether or not you want this to happen and set your ratings based
upon
that decision).  The loco card "travels with the loco/train" just like
the car cards -
so it is always available to anyone (the YM/hostler?) who is making the
decisions
about what power to use on the trains.  (Many layouts also have "caboose
cards".)
   Many layouts include specifying the locos that will be used on trains
that are
made up during the session in the 'packets of stuff' that are used to
assign the
trains to operators and/or given to the yards to use to make up the
train(s).

   Most layouts do not have much capability for/include in the
operations the
ability to add helpers for "Just The Grade(s)" ... and so the motive
power assigned
to the train is done in the originating yard or staging.
   With this approach what you do is to "assign enough power for the
train to get
itself over the RR".  And, usually, the layout owner decides to not
specify different
power requirements for different directions (even if that is possible) -
if for no
other reason than to keep the number of locos 'balanced' on the ends/in the
yards.  But some Ops include "light power moves" to re-balance.  *G*

                                                              ****

   I operate on a lot of different layouts.  One of them has a helper
district and
many of the trains truly -require- a helper in order to get up the
grade.  They
won't make it without one.  The way the Op works is that the train pulls
up to
the departure point in the yard/town, the helper is added (and at the
correct
placement/specified place in the train), and then clearance to proceed
is gotten.
At the top of the grade the helpers are cut off and the train proceeds
without
them.  This is an "all steam" Ops (OK, only mostly steam) and so each
locomotive
has its own crew/engineer (no consisting with the head end).

                                                            ****

   Helper operations can be/are a lot of fun - but in order to do them
effectively you may have to add Ops jobs such as "hostler" and "Helper
Engineer(s)" ... and you also have to allow time in the schedule to
add/remove
helpers.  Luckily, it is usually fairly easy to find a window where a
helper/helper
set can be returned back down the hill - where it goes into the engine
facility
to wait for its next assignment.  *Great Stuff!!!*
                                                           - Jim B.


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Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

Jim Betz
 

Nelson,

Often using any kind of "prototypical practice/methods" results in calculations
that don't really "work" for the layout. At the very minimum you will have to
make some decisions that "map" the horsepower in the locos to the trains you
are able to run on your layout - because, among other reasons, the prototype
ratings don't apply directly to our model trains.
I'm saying that using the same formulas that were used on the prototype
often results in 'errors' when applied to our layouts.

****

Another approach is to do -actual- motive power measurements ... on your layout.
This is easily done by first finding the ruling grade and then pulling a 'typical' train
up that grade and changing the number of cars until the loco handles it (with? or
without? any slipping is up to you/the layout owner).
Finally - create "locomotive cards" that are the same size as your car cards and
include the rating/pulling power for the loco. It helps if all of the cars on the
layout are the same weight (for the same size car). Using a rating that is right
on the edge of being the max the loco can carry may result in "emergency calls
for a helper" which although fun can seriously affect the 'flow' of the Op (so
decide whether or not you want this to happen and set your ratings based upon
that decision). The loco card "travels with the loco/train" just like the car cards -
so it is always available to anyone (the YM/hostler?) who is making the decisions
about what power to use on the trains. (Many layouts also have "caboose cards".)
Many layouts include specifying the locos that will be used on trains that are
made up during the session in the 'packets of stuff' that are used to assign the
trains to operators and/or given to the yards to use to make up the train(s).

Most layouts do not have much capability for/include in the operations the
ability to add helpers for "Just The Grade(s)" ... and so the motive power assigned
to the train is done in the originating yard or staging.
With this approach what you do is to "assign enough power for the train to get
itself over the RR". And, usually, the layout owner decides to not specify different
power requirements for different directions (even if that is possible) - if for no
other reason than to keep the number of locos 'balanced' on the ends/in the
yards. But some Ops include "light power moves" to re-balance. *G*

****

I operate on a lot of different layouts. One of them has a helper district and
many of the trains truly -require- a helper in order to get up the grade. They
won't make it without one. The way the Op works is that the train pulls up to
the departure point in the yard/town, the helper is added (and at the correct
placement/specified place in the train), and then clearance to proceed is gotten.
At the top of the grade the helpers are cut off and the train proceeds without
them. This is an "all steam" Ops (OK, only mostly steam) and so each locomotive
has its own crew/engineer (no consisting with the head end).

****

Helper operations can be/are a lot of fun - but in order to do them
effectively you may have to add Ops jobs such as "hostler" and "Helper
Engineer(s)" ... and you also have to allow time in the schedule to add/remove
helpers. Luckily, it is usually fairly easy to find a window where a helper/helper
set can be returned back down the hill - where it goes into the engine facility
to wait for its next assignment. *Great Stuff!!!*
- Jim B.


Re: Calculating Motive Power Requirements

Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
 

Thanks for the link to Al Klug's site. I'll play with the calculator to see how it might be used in model railroad operation.

Nelson Moyer


On Aug 15, 2015, at 12:41 AM, "jcdworkingonthenp@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

I agree with Bruce on his statements regarding the employees timetables.  I believe that the dispatcher has the final say on signing off on the power assigned.  The wind and temperature are also a factor. The dispatchers train sheets have blanks for this data that is typically filled in.

Nelson, for more data look for the website/blogsite Tales from the Krug

 





It has some interesting data however out of respect for the sheriff, I will note the date frame of the site well post dates this sites 1960 cut off. Al Krug is an interesting railroader and has put some useful data on the site.  
                                                                                                       Jim Dick - St. Paul, MN


Re: era of silver Mobilgas ICC-103 tank cars

Tim O'Connor
 


 > When was the silver Mobilgas scheme in use?
 > Scott Chatfield

Never, as far as I know -- I've only seen black tank cars, and red tank cars,
with the "Mobilgas" logo.

However some tank TRUCKS appear to have been painted this way
http://assets.finda.co.nz/images/thumb/b/v/1/4j8bv1/602x381/waitomo-petroleum-ltd.jpg

Tim O'


Re: era of silver Mobilgas ICC-103 tank cars

riverman_vt@...
 

Hi Scott,

    My copy of Ted Culotta's tank car book being closer at hand than 
yours I have just looked for the Mobil tank car in silver and lettered
as you describe. Unfortunately, as I'd like to see one myself, there 
do not appear to be any in the book. There are several cars for 
Texaco in a silver base color but no Mobilgas cars. Only black
cars with the large "Mobilgas" in white over the length of the
tank.

Sorry I can't offer something better, Don Valentine


Re: US coal hoppers in Canada

riverman_vt@...
 

John,

     Was it not fairly common to see carloads of coal from both the NYC and D&H in
southwestern Quebec at least with each of those two roads having their own line
to at least Montreal? Also, would it be save to assume that most coal coming from
Nova Scotia would have come in CNR hoppers? I do not know if the S&L had any
hoppers that were used interline service or not but with Springhill and the Cape
Breton areas both being connected to the outside rail world only by the CNR would 
expect few other hoppers were used. Your thoughts?

Thanks, Don Valentine

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