Date   

Re: Champ Decals vendors: Are there any?

Charles Hladik
 

    Years ago in a phone conversation with Mr. Myer, he stated, "when I die, Champ dies".  That was a foolish attitude back then and the Mrs, seems to think the same way.
 
    I've got a mess of Champ decals, some with the Cleveland address on the envelope. Reckon I'll dig them out, make a list and see if they will brighten anyone's day.
 
Chuck Hladik
Rustburg, VA.
 

In a message dated 8/31/2015 9:59:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

 

The article said she wanted $500,000 for the business. That may have
made sense in the glory days of decal sales, but considering that 80%
of the art doesn't meet present day standards of accuracy/fidelity to
the prototype and in any case is all designed to be used with a letter
press rather than a silkscreen, could anyone make a viable business
out of that? The article made it sound like since no offer was made,
the matter is closed.


     When I asked her if they had engaged a professional business valuator to give a value, she said that she and her brother knew the business very well and knew what is was worth. When I inquired whether the business books could be examined, to see annual volumes, etc., she said yes, but that in her opinion, those kinds of numbers had nothing to do with the value. It seemed clear to me that they had simply "imagineered" the price, and it's no surprise nobody bit.
      As with other businesses which could in principle be sold, but are priced beyond any practical possible value, one wonders why these people decide it is better to trash everything rather than find a viable buyer to continue. I have heard the comment that such sellers are not really sellers, they are worshipers of the previous business owner.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.s ignaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Champ Decals Shortcomings

mwbauers
 

We do have machines that 3d print in full color.

As of today, they do not have the required resolution we need for scale model lettering…….. or NBW-rivet detail.

Some tomorrow to come, we will have that as well.

Sometime after that, we will have perfect scale models of accurate scale materials. But you won’t be able to handle them at all without damaging them.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Aug 31, 2015, at 10:23 PM, Charles Peck wrote:

By the way, I do know one way to do the lettering without decal film.
You put the model into your little 3D printing machine, align the laser
marks, and print the lettering right in place on the car.  No, I don't have
that machine. But I bet someone will try.
Chuck Peck in FL

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 11:18 PM, Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...> wrote:
The technology in the hobby has advanced by leaps and bounds.  It's not going to
stop advancing tomorrow. In 25 years some of us, probably not me, will be seeing
advances hard to imagine today.  

………………..


Re: Champ Decals Shortcomings

Charles Peck
 

By the way, I do know one way to do the lettering without decal film.
You put the model into your little 3D printing machine, align the laser
marks, and print the lettering right in place on the car.  No, I don't have
that machine. But I bet someone will try.
Chuck Peck in FL

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 11:18 PM, Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...> wrote:
The technology in the hobby has advanced by leaps and bounds.  It's not going to
stop advancing tomorrow. In 25 years some of us, probably not me, will be seeing
advances hard to imagine today.  Remote control couplers shrunk from G to HO or N
scale.  Working trainline brakes.  Background scenery that changes seasons. Weather.
Yes, I'm talking crazy. Like those crazy people who thought you could put DCC and 
sound into N scale a few years ago. 
Think how nice it will be when you don't cover up decal film because it isn't there.
I don't know how. Somebody smarter than me will figure it out.  Maybe it will be
Microscale, maybe it will be the people who make them obsolete. 
There will be people like me who will cherrypick some of the new stuff but are too
set in their ways to let go of the old stuff altogether.  But great days are coming.
I'm glad I didn't buy Champ.  Or any of several other old line companies.
I'd rather wait around for the next generation of stuff than try to sell you the same 
stuff you bought 25 years ago. 
Chuck Peck in FL

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Andy Carlson midcentury@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Tim O'Connor wrote about champion Decals: ..... "(B)ut considering that 80%
of the art doesn't meet present day standards of accuracy/fidelity to
the prototype(.)"

As a budding Prototype modeler in the 1980s, I had a project of backdating an Athearn 4-bay 5000 cu ft ACF Centerflow covered hopper into a high-brakewheel 3-bay 4650 Centerflow. The Champ set specific to this car was horrible in its portrayal of the lettering. Fortunately with laser B&W printers I was able to blow up a side view photo and make a black decal on Walthers decal paper in the laser printer. The Champ decals didn't meet the then standards of accuracy!

"Present day standards" did not occur overnight and just fairly recently. Folks like Richard Zenk, Richard Hendricskson The East Coast RPI guys and dozens of others popularized prototype modeling and many great efforts blossomed forth.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA











Re: Champ Decals Shortcomings

Charles Peck
 

The technology in the hobby has advanced by leaps and bounds.  It's not going to
stop advancing tomorrow. In 25 years some of us, probably not me, will be seeing
advances hard to imagine today.  Remote control couplers shrunk from G to HO or N
scale.  Working trainline brakes.  Background scenery that changes seasons. Weather.
Yes, I'm talking crazy. Like those crazy people who thought you could put DCC and 
sound into N scale a few years ago. 
Think how nice it will be when you don't cover up decal film because it isn't there.
I don't know how. Somebody smarter than me will figure it out.  Maybe it will be
Microscale, maybe it will be the people who make them obsolete. 
There will be people like me who will cherrypick some of the new stuff but are too
set in their ways to let go of the old stuff altogether.  But great days are coming.
I'm glad I didn't buy Champ.  Or any of several other old line companies.
I'd rather wait around for the next generation of stuff than try to sell you the same 
stuff you bought 25 years ago. 
Chuck Peck in FL

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Andy Carlson midcentury@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Tim O'Connor wrote about champion Decals: ..... "(B)ut considering that 80%
of the art doesn't meet present day standards of accuracy/fidelity to
the prototype(.)"

As a budding Prototype modeler in the 1980s, I had a project of backdating an Athearn 4-bay 5000 cu ft ACF Centerflow covered hopper into a high-brakewheel 3-bay 4650 Centerflow. The Champ set specific to this car was horrible in its portrayal of the lettering. Fortunately with laser B&W printers I was able to blow up a side view photo and make a black decal on Walthers decal paper in the laser printer. The Champ decals didn't meet the then standards of accuracy!

"Present day standards" did not occur overnight and just fairly recently. Folks like Richard Zenk, Richard Hendricskson The East Coast RPI guys and dozens of others popularized prototype modeling and many great efforts blossomed forth.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA










Champ Decals Shortcomings

Andy Carlson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote about champion Decals: ..... "(B)ut considering that 80%
of the art doesn't meet present day standards of accuracy/fidelity to
the prototype(.)"

As a budding Prototype modeler in the 1980s, I had a project of backdating an Athearn 4-bay 5000 cu ft ACF Centerflow covered hopper into a high-brakewheel 3-bay 4650 Centerflow. The Champ set specific to this car was horrible in its portrayal of the lettering. Fortunately with laser B&W printers I was able to blow up a side view photo and make a black decal on Walthers decal paper in the laser printer. The Champ decals didn't meet the then standards of accuracy!

"Present day standards" did not occur overnight and just fairly recently. Folks like Richard Zenk, Richard Hendricskson The East Coast RPI guys and dozens of others popularized prototype modeling and many great efforts blossomed forth.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA









Re: Champ Decals vendors: Are there any?

Mitchell Mercante
 

Bill,

You might try Hawkins Rail Service, P. O. Box 6008, Lafayette, IN 47903, telephone 765-742-5577.  Mr. Hawkins does not have an internet presence but will respond to either mail or telephone inquiries.  He has a very large supply of Champ decals in his store  and he should be able to search for what you need and he will let you know if he does indeed have it.  And if you come across any Victor Chemical Company decals, I'll take them!

Regards,

Mitch Mercante



On Monday, August 31, 2015 5:49 PM, "fgexbill@... [STMFC]" wrote:




Thank you Ben and Roger. It looks like the only Champ decals available are "O" scale.

I am surprised that at least Champ's remaining stock was not purchased by someone. The sets in question are re-weigh and re-lube items that match Champ and Walthers decals nicely. I have one of each packet but as I go back and dress up some older builds, I wanted at least one envelop of each. They include some things not in the Sunshine sets.

Hard to imagine decals just sitting somewhere or worse going into a Dumpster.

Bill Welch





Re: Oregon lumber traffic

Allen Rueter
 

The Bieber Yard (interchange) book, does not call out commodities , but does show that the GN had a base of two South bound trains, three trains happened several times a week, four trains a day happened several times a month.
 
--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO


Re: Champ Decals vendors: Are there any?

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

 

The article said she wanted $500,000 for the business. That may have
made sense in the glory days of decal sales, but considering that 80%
of the art doesn't meet present day standards of accuracy/fidelity to
the prototype and in any case is all designed to be used with a letter
press rather than a silkscreen, could anyone make a viable business
out of that? The article made it sound like since no offer was made,
the matter is closed.


     When I asked her if they had engaged a professional business valuator to give a value, she said that she and her brother knew the business very well and knew what is was worth. When I inquired whether the business books could be examined, to see annual volumes, etc., she said yes, but that in her opinion, those kinds of numbers had nothing to do with the value. It seemed clear to me that they had simply "imagineered" the price, and it's no surprise nobody bit.
      As with other businesses which could in principle be sold, but are priced beyond any practical possible value, one wonders why these people decide it is better to trash everything rather than find a viable buyer to continue. I have heard the comment that such sellers are not really sellers, they are worshipers of the previous business owner.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Champ Decals vendors: Are there any?

mwbauers
 

It’s likely that she would get that price if the major parts of the business were sold separately.

An unfortunate truth of the collection is that a moderately skilled computer graphics program user, even the occasional home user of such a program, can rebuild the Champ decal collection from their published plan books and catalogs. It would take time and a few computer jockeys working as a team. But it can be done by folks with an average computer skill.

I proved this to myself some years ago when Walthers was discontinuing certain decals I need many of. I worked from prototype shots and single sets of the long running Walthers decal sets. As I worked my decals were more correct and much better quality than the Walthers set. As a new user of the program I was working with, it took 2.5 hours. Half of that time was making over-cautious incremental work back-ups and repeated test prints and measured comparisons to the prototype. This included half of the development time spent on creating the complex herald from scratch. The nearest possible fonts were easily corrected to be correct in the process and the new font-set saved for future projects of the same RR.

I think if it was a standard boxcar, it would have taken half the time that this passenger unit with several mounted signs took. In fact, the freight cars and powered freight engines use the same fonts and heralds. As such they would be a quick job to make from the prime set for that RR.

As vector art, the work rescales to any desired scale with no loss of detail. I did a combined N scale to O scale sample page of the set to prove that. Any computer printer can generate the decal set from that digital art-work.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Aug 31, 2015, at 8:13 PM, Charles Peck  wrote:


I wonder if the graying of the hobby was part of it.  There are exceptions to be sure,
but I'm thinking that by the time most of us average Joes have saved enough to 
make such an investment, retirement is too close to put that money into buying
another job.  Especially one with only hope, not certainty, of being rebuilt into
something that will pay a good return.  I see folks as getting risk-adverse as they age.
Chuck Peck in FL

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 8:43 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 


The article said she wanted $500,000 for the business. That may have
made sense in the glory days of decal sales, but considering that 80%
of the art doesn't meet present day standards of accuracy/fidelity to
the prototype and in any case is all designed to be used with a letter
press rather than a silkscreen, could anyone make a viable business
out of that? The article made it sound like since no offer was made,
the matter is closed.

Tim O'


Bill Welch wrote:

I am surprised that at least Champ's remaining stock was not purchased by someone. The sets in question are re-weigh and re-lube items that match Champ and Walthers decals nicely. __

     True, Bill, and I know of a couple of people who tried to nibble at the remaining stock, or at the artwork. But. Last time I checked, Rich's widow was insisting that anyone buying had to buy everything, down to the office desks, or buy nothing. No cherry picking.

Tony Thompson 


Re: Champ Decals vendors: Are there any?

Charles Peck
 

I wonder if the graying of the hobby was part of it.  There are exceptions to be sure,
but I'm thinking that by the time most of us average Joes have saved enough to 
make such an investment, retirement is too close to put that money into buying
another job.  Especially one with only hope, not certainty, of being rebuilt into
something that will pay a good return.  I see folks as getting risk-adverse as they age.
Chuck Peck in FL

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 8:43 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 


The article said she wanted $500,000 for the business. That may have
made sense in the glory days of decal sales, but considering that 80%
of the art doesn't meet present day standards of accuracy/fidelity to
the prototype and in any case is all designed to be used with a letter
press rather than a silkscreen, could anyone make a viable business
out of that? The article made it sound like since no offer was made,
the matter is closed.

Tim O'


Bill Welch wrote:

I am surprised that at least Champ's remaining stock was not purchased by someone. The sets in question are re-weigh and re-lube items that match Champ and Walthers decals nicely. __

     True, Bill, and I know of a couple of people who tried to nibble at the remaining stock, or at the artwork. But. Last time I checked, Rich's widow was insisting that anyone buying had to buy everything, down to the office desks, or buy nothing. No cherry picking.

Tony Thompson 



Re: Portland Car & Foundry Decalss

Tim O'Connor
 

I've had similar problems with decals from Kadee and others. White really needs to
be printed on a darker background! And it helps a lot if the white ink is opaque! :-)

Tim O'

P.S. I like the flatbed scanning suggestion... I'll have to try that.

What about telling the printer about the difficulties you are having and asking for a paper copy of the artwork to serve a map?
Bill Welch


Re: Portland Car & Foundry Decalss

Bill Welch
 

What about telling the printer about the difficulties you are having and asking for a paper copy of the artwork to serve a map?

Bill Welch


Re: Champ Decals vendors: Are there any?

Tim O'Connor
 


The article said she wanted $500,000 for the business. That may have
made sense in the glory days of decal sales, but considering that 80%
of the art doesn't meet present day standards of accuracy/fidelity to
the prototype and in any case is all designed to be used with a letter
press rather than a silkscreen, could anyone make a viable business
out of that? The article made it sound like since no offer was made,
the matter is closed.

Tim O'


Bill Welch wrote:

I am surprised that at least Champ's remaining stock was not purchased by someone. The sets in question are re-weigh and re-lube items that match Champ and Walthers decals nicely. __

     True, Bill, and I know of a couple of people who tried to nibble at the remaining stock, or at the artwork. But. Last time I checked, Rich's widow was insisting that anyone buying had to buy everything, down to the office desks, or buy nothing. No cherry picking.

Tony Thompson 


Re: Champ Decals vendors: Are there any?

Rick Jesionowski
 

E-mail North Central Supply with your wants, he is still in business and if he has want you want he will e-mail you back with the quantity and price.

Rick Jesionowski


Re: Oregon lumber traffic

Bill Decker
 

Thanks Tony for augmenting my observations.  Your statements likely are based more in actual documents.  In my defense guys, the basic premise is basic economics.  I already noted the way the Bay Area was served by more local moves, including the NWP.  For the LA area and further around the "Golden Crescent," Oregon is simply closer to market.  In the ICC era of this list, mileage alone was enough to drive the transportation economics.  Once loaded into/onto steam era freight cars ;-))  , it was fairly economical to get it down to Southern California and beyond.  The Washington timber harvesters needed to get past the prolific Oregon mills to engage in that traffic.  

Still, there was traffic from Washington state.  NP was a friendly connection at Portland and that continued into the "green" era well past this list.  Also past this list was a run-through agreement that deposited a full train at Eugene from Seattle and Tacoma.  I can see that traffic developing in steam era photos on the Cascade Line just by the many NP cars entrained.  By personal observation, SP&S' Oregon Electric traffic out of the Willamette Valley tended to go north and then east from Vancouver, WA.  Some joined the "GWS" stream down the Inside Gateway, but much went east.  Once again, look at the transportation economics.  As long as SP provided adequate service, the competitors were at a transportation cost disadvantage.

Bill Decker


Re: Portland Car & Foundry Decalss

Andy Cich
 

I have had some white decals that are tough to read on the sheet. Scan them and play around with the scan settings and/or resulting image. I can usually make a nice reference sheet to know what is on the decal sheet. Plus, you can zoom in. It has been a while since I have done this, but I think I scanned the decals as a grayscale image and then adjusted the contrast.

 

Andy Cich

 

 

 I ordered a large run of custom decals from Portland Car & Foundry.

They are, actually, very good decals, with a lot of specific-to-my-freelance railroad data; repack stencils, etc.

I could not be happier with the actual decals, and the process of ordering them.

He is VERY thorough.

 

However, they are white decals on white paper and they are so hard to see as to be NEARLY unusable to me.

(Yes I have tried to darken the background with Sharpies, Marks-a-lot's, spray paint, cutting on glass over a light, etc, etc, etc...)

 

Paul Catapano

Remember 1915-2015: 

The World War One Centenary


Portland Car & Foundry Decalss

Paul Catapano
 

 I ordered a large run of custom decals from Portland Car & Foundry.
They are, actually, very good decals, with a lot of specific-to-my-freelance railroad data; repack stencils, etc.
I could not be happier with the actual decals, and the process of ordering them.
He is VERY thorough.

However, they are white decals on white paper and they are so hard to see as to be NEARLY unusable to me.
(Yes I have tried to darken the background with Sharpies, Marks-a-lot's, spray paint, cutting on glass over a light, etc, etc, etc...)

Paul Catapano
Remember 1915-2015: 
The World War One Centenary


Re: Champ Decals vendors: Are there any?

RDGSD45@...
 

If that's the seller that was in the far back corner, the last few shows they were having a going out of business sale.


                                                                                                Doug Wetherhold


Re: Champ Decals vendors: Are there any?

Tony Thompson
 

Bill Welch wrote:

 

I am surprised that at least Champ's remaining stock was not purchased by someone. The sets in question are re-weigh and re-lube items that match Champ and Walthers decals nicely. __


     True, Bill, and I know of a couple of people who tried to nibble at the remaining stock, or at the artwork. But. Last time I checked, Rich's widow was insisting that anyone buying had to buy everything, down to the office desks, or buy nothing. No cherry picking.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Oregon lumber traffic

Chuck Soule
 

Lumber traffic from the NW to California also included a lot of Canadian Pacific and Canadian National traffic. I remember seeing many Canadian cars pass through Tacoma in the 50s and 60s.  I remember asking my father why some cars were lettered Canadien National and others for Canadian National (I was too young to figure out it was one way on one side of the car, and the other on the opposite side).

I don't know percentages, but many CP, CN and PGE cars went to California, often in blocks within a train.  The NP received Canadian loads at Sumas, WA and usually delivered them to the SP in Portland.  The GN received Canadian loads in Vancouver, BC and, in most circumstances, sent them south via the Inside Gateway.

Chuck Soule

46681 - 46700 of 183573