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Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic
Larry Rice
Wood alcohol is/was an important raw material in the manufacture of formaldehyde, which is an ingredient in some adhesives used in plywood manufacture. Formaldehyde was also used widely in pulp mills during the steam era, though that use has been illegal for some time. Off the top of my head, I can think of four or five plants in the Northwest that manufactured wood or methyl alcohol. Larry Rice Port Townsend WA
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paint
Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
Just received my copy of RMC today and noticed a
paragraph that MinuteMan Scale Models has purchased Scalecoat.
This sounds like a good thing.
-- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic
Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
On 9/3/2015 4:39 PM, Mike Bauers
mwbauers55@... [STMFC] wrote:
I think that is exactly on target…… so to speak . From the net is appears the Mark 14 was hardly ever "on target" (VBG)! Does anyone else have any more information on that facility? It interested me because I lived in Eugene from the middle to late 50s and never heard of the plant. Springfield was close in those days and now I understand it's just one big city. -- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Funaro & Camerlengo kit box chronology(?)
hvyweight41
I have been purchasing F&C kits from different secondhand sources and begun to see that there are different styles of boxes. I assume they have changed over time. I describe the different styles as: white box - one piece folded box with text paper label on the end blue box - two piece box with blue lid and text paper label on the end picture box - two piece box with white lid and printed label with picture of the built model on top of lid Also, I have one kit in a plastic bag with a F&C label. I remember reading, here, that the bagged kits were sold by F&C at train shows and meets. I have searched through the messages, files and photos, but have not been able to find anything that talks to the evolution of the F&C kit box. Has anyone documented what box was used when? I assume the picture box is the current version, based on the new kits I see being sold. Thanks, Keith Kempster Jacksonville, FL PS I apologize if this is a repeat. I tried a couple days ago and my browser restarted when I hit <send>. I have waited to see if it showed up, but have not seen it.
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Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic
mwbauers
I think that is exactly on target…… so to speak .
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi
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Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic
The alcohol fueled torpedo was obsolete before the end of WWII. A plant built in 1947 had to have some other purpose. Chuck Peck in FL
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 7:35 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic
Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
On 9/3/2015 3:59 PM,
sp.billd@... [STMFC] wrote:
This raises the question of what the Federal Government interest was in wood alcohol.Torpedo fuel? -- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic
Aley, Jeff A
Dave, This data surprises me. The first column (originated and terminated on UP) should mostly represent raw lumber going to mills on the UP. The second would be the finished lumber going offline. I would therefore expect the latter to be similar in magnitude to the former.
Similarly, I am surprised that UP terminated so much lumber received from other carriers. The bridge traffic (I’d bet it was received from the SP) makes sense.
Comments?
Regards,
-Jeff
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
The following columns are provided: > Received from connecting carriers, terminated on L&N - revenue tons
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Re: Alcohol Shipments, was Pacific Northwest WWII was Lumber Traffic
Bill Decker
Richard,
I don't have a direct answer, probably more to muddy the waters. I have a copy of a photo of a wood alcohol plant built with Federal money at Springfield, OR, ca. 1947. I also have a copy of a Sanborn map for the plant. That plant clearly had Southern Pacific rail service, though we have no indication it actually ever shipped anything. This raises the question of what the Federal Government interest was in wood alcohol. It also raises the possibility there might have been another such plant elsewhere along the Pacific Slope. I can somewhat understand a post-war plant. V-2 missiles used alcohol as fuel. Alcohol needs during WWII are a different matter. This still does not answer your question. Ever more curious... Bill Decker
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Re: Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars
Tony Thompson
Partly because the name of the author of these volumes was similar to his own, thus causing mistaken comments to him, Richard Hendrickson was quite scathing about the written content of all the CFC volumes. I think he was the first to advise, for a particular book, to "enjoy the photos but put your thumb over the captions."
Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars
Bill Welch
I am aware of these Ben, but I thought JP said he was looking for additional Vols on reefers. I agree about the captions. I think John Henderson was the author of some of these. Vol. 6 has the only photo I have ever seen of the NC&StL's 65-fot Mill gon as delivered.
Bill Welch
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Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic
devansprr
Mike,
Very good point. Having stopped day dreaming about the future, some interesting WWII lumber data for L&N, Southern and UP. The following columns are provided: > Year > Originating and terminating on the L&N - revenue tons > Originating on the L&N, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons > Received from connecting carriers, terminated on L&N - revenue tons > Received from connecting carriers, delivered to connecting carriers - revenue tons > Freight revenue (Dollars) 1941 357,427 609,743 304,287 424,202 $5,018k 1942 420,975 693,011 408,085 516,708 $5,960k 1943 456,633 662,377 587,499 446,386 $6,057k 1944 409,591 579,037 420,625 411,068 $5,008k 1945 349,308 566,130 410,183 373,581 $4,768k Same data for Southern: 1941 368,232 1,017,398 529,455 703,887 $6,184k 1942 459,486 1,169,235 709,547 846,730 $7.903k 1943 472,247 1,118,978 697,297 897,664 $7,989k 1944 446,024 995,864 602,856 761,599 $6,985k 1945 419,151 845,596 588,037 646,379 $6,256k And for UP (for grins): 1941 306,150 772,376 403,026 1,315,446 $17,428k 1942 440,798 932,544 615,183 1,504,111 $22,360k 1943 369,967 815,985 521,614 1,513,932 $21,266k 1944 417,548 915,605 568,543 1,573,220 $22,720k 1945 335,203 750,527 504,843 1,279,837 $18,486k Not sure there is anything special about L&N deliveries that might point to Oak Ridge. An interesting data point is that the UP originated almost as much lumber as it bridged for other railroads in '42 and '44 (only 10% short), although 1943 looks to have been a bad year for lumber mills served by the UP. Wonder why? And just now reading Tim and Tony's notes on rollers, I wonder how much of this data was corrupted by that practice. I would suspect that rollers may have occurred much less during WWII - clearly demand was way up, so customers should have been in greater supply. I wonder if the explosion of "big" projects (such as Oak ridge, the blimp hangers on the west coast, and the many defense manufacturing plants framed from wood - a big source of future well-aged wood for the wood flooring business) also cut way down on rollers (customers ordering wood by the train load instead of car load)? Dave Evans ---In STMFC@..., <brockm@...> wrote : Well, I would suggest that different yrs during WW2 might have generated different traffic patterns as well. Consider the example of Oak Ridge, Tennessee. During 1941 it was not there. The only lumber present was growing on trees. By the end of 1943 about 75,000 people lived there [ including...uh...me ]. The city, itself, was built in about 2 yrs including residential by the feds consuming an area of the same size as Memphis. This city was spread all over a geographical entity known as Black Oak Ridge. Amazingly, a wooden boardwalk, including bridges when needed, was built behind the houses instead of in front next to the streets. Add to that the three enormous nuclear plans also built in about a yr. The L&N served the city and I think 2 plants...X-10 and Y-12...while Southern served the huge K-25 facility. Anything that this operation [The Manhattan Project ] needed, they got. To emphasize the consumption of stuff...certainly lumber...people working there would note that a lot of stuff went there but nothing ever came out. Surely there were other examples of the needs of the military during its expansion from a third world sized force to the world's largest [ including its supporting facilities...like Oak Ridge ]. So, yes, WW2 would have had some impact on traffic patterns...certainly it did in east Tennessee. "So all of that EB lumber traffic on Mike Brock's layout may not be appropriate for WWII era traffic." Well, it might well be that east bound lumber may have been shipped a bit further south. Mike Brock
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Re: Pacific Great Eastern freight cars in the US in the 1950s (offshoot
Dennis Storzek
---In STMFC@..., <sarahsan@...> wrote :
Dennis, I'm looking at the PGE roster in the 1958 ORER, and seeing mostly state-of-the-art equipment, by then at least. I wasn't able to find photos or data on most of their cars, and I'm sure some of them were rolling relics, but these stood out: XM 4101-4300 w/8' doors, built 1958 by NSC. They also had series 4001-4075 with 6' doors, and otherwise similar dimensions. I have no picture of these, but they are listed as all-steel. By this time all their older wooden boxcars were gone, rebuilt as stock cars or scrapped. RAMH 820-824, 825-834 and 835-844, all-steel 8-hatch reefers built by NSC in 1954, 1956 and 1958 respectively... ================= Garth, 1958 is almost the end of the era for this list, and just a couple years before the statement restricting interchange disappears from the ORER. I was really thinking of the decade right after WWII. I suspect PGE was in the position of originating more traffic than they received, and so would never get empties back to replace home road cars that went off line. Likely better to keep their own cars on-line (which included shuttling to Vancouver on the CP barge) and request CP supply foreign road empties when they had loads for interchange. Whatever the reason, it seems pretty clear that the intent was to not let their car fleet become free runners, at least not until 1960. Dennis Storzek
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Walther's Decals for sale
Charles Hladik
The following Walther's decals are for sale at $2.00 a set
plus shipping or $35.00 for the whole lot. Reply OFF LIST ONLY, any
reply on list will be ignored.
03-06 Ann Arbor Caboose
White 1 set
03-10 Ann Arbor Box
Car White 1 Set
26-15 B&O Box Car
White 2
sets
26-14 B&O Box Car White 1919
Scheme 1 set
40-17 Burlington White Diesel
GP 1 set
38-160 CNW Box Car
White 1
set
1302 Diamond Alkali Tank Car
Black 1 set
48-11 DLW White Gen Purpose 1
set
52-11 GN
Billboard White 2
sets
Lehigh
Valley Combined Frt White 1 set
11-54 Socony Vacuum, Mobilgas
Black 1 set
73-10 New Haven Combined Frt
White 1 set
71-15 NYC 40' 50T Box White 2
sets
71-88 NYC Piggy Back
Yellow/Black 2 sets
71-60 NYC Pass Gold 1
set
71-80 NYC Pass Gold 1
set
77-10 PRR Auto/Box White 1
set
70-11 Venetian Blinds Pass Car
Gold 2 sets
Chuck Hladik
Rustburg,
VA.
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More Champ Decals
Charles Hladik
The following sets are $2.00 each plus
shippoing unless noted. Some may have a piece missing or extra sets inside.
Or $40.00 plus shipping for the lot.
Reply OFF LIST ONLY, requests on list
will be ignored!
HH-7 Erie herald 1 set
HB-322 ACL Box Car 1
set
EH-174 ACL Hood
Diesel 1 set
EH-50A ACL
Diesel 1 set
HB-337 B&O Box
Car 1 set
HB-2 B&O Wagon Top Box
Car 1 set
HT-50 Cities Service Tank "Older
Scheme" 1 set
HN-4 D&RGW white
lettering 1 set
HB-3 Erie Box
Car 1 set
HD-19D Express Reefer
Dulux 1 set
BRH-37 FGE Express Blue Ribbon
Set $3.00 1 set
HB-142 GTW Box 1
set
HC-91 NYC Twin
Hopper 1/2 set $.50
NKP Stmld Alum/Blue Pass Car. 1 Coach/1
diner/Pullman $5.00 1 set
PH-104 NKP Alum/Blue Pass
Car 1 set
HR-28 Oppenheimer Sausage
Reefer 1 set
HC-120 PRR MOW
Black 1 set
HB-155A PRR Merchandise Box
Car 1 set
HN-87 SAL
White 1 set
HB-351 Southern
Box 1 set
HT-52 Union Tank Line
UTLX 1 set
PH-115 Pullman Std Pass
Car 1 set
Chuck Hladik
Rustburg, Va.
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Champ Decals for sale
Charles Hladik
Below is a list of the Data, lettering
etc of Champ decals that I have for sale. Some may have a few pieces missing,
but very few and others may be several of the same set in one envelope for
convenience.
K-5 Circus Data & Scrolls,
BLUE $2.00 1
pkg
X-10 White Numbers
7/64" $2.00 2
pkg
X-16 White Numbers
9/64" $2.00 2
pkg
HD-1 Box Car Data 40
ton $10.00 6
in 1 pkg
HD-2 Box Car Data 50
ton $2.00 1
pkg
HD-4 Twin Hopper Data50/55
ton $2.00 1
HD-6 Gon 50/70 T, 41-65
Ft $2.00 1
HD-12 40/50 Ft Box Car Data
Black $2.00 1
HD-16D Steam Loco Tender Data
Dulux $2.00 1
HD-25D Pass Car Scrolls and Orn
Dulux $2.00 2
HD-26 Watch your Step Blk/Wht
Pass $2.00 2
HD-33W Steam Tender Capy Wht RR
Roman $2.00 3
All for $35.00 plus postage. Contact
me OFF LIST, if not I will ignore the request.
Chuck Hladik
Rustburg, VA. 24588
434-941-7456
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Re: Car Service Rules
Aley, Jeff A
Dan,
Thanks for sharing your expertise. The 1951 compliance numbers are abysmal. Do you have any idea why? Since I model 1951, it sounds like I could assign cars randomly, and be prototypical : -)
Regards,
-Jeff
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 1:40 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Car Service Rules
I'll add to Tony's comments based on my 42 year railroad career, which predates list, but I was hanging around with agency and car distributors as early as 1964 and did do car ordering, supply and distribution.
Jim Betz wrote (in part):
Jim, your general questions have simple answers, and I will try to be brief. Shippers told the local agent what cars they needed, and where they were going. That information was transmitted to car distributors at the appropriate regional yard, who selected the car to send. So in fact, the empty car might well be selected for exactly each shipper's load. Of course, home road cars were used too, and were more interchangeable (relative to Car Service Rules). But the shipper did NOT say "send us 4 box cars," they said "we need 2 box cars going to St. Louis., one to Memphis, and one to Atlanta." The shipper chose the routing, and the formal car request was the Bill of Lading document, from which the Waybill was made out, but the shipper could less formally request empties with just the bare-bones information of what cars, and to where. All this has been well documented in many publications, and I have summarized it in clinics and magazine articles, as well as on my blog.
Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Pacific Great Eastern freight cars in the US in the 1950s (offshoot
Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
Dennis,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I'm looking at the PGE roster in the 1958 ORER, and seeing mostly state-of-the-art equipment, by then at least. I wasn't able to find photos or data on most of their cars, and I'm sure some of them were rolling relics, but these stood out: XM 4101-4300 w/8' doors, built 1958 by NSC. They also had series 4001-4075 with 6' doors, and otherwise similar dimensions. I have no picture of these, but they are listed as all-steel. By this time all their older wooden boxcars were gone, rebuilt as stock cars or scrapped. RAMH 820-824, 825-834 and 835-844, all-steel 8-hatch reefers built by NSC in 1954, 1956 and 1958 respectively. FM 1220-1469, 52' 6" steel-underframe flats with a 155000 capacity. HM 200-229 and 261-280, 40', 140,000 capacity, 2775 cubic foot hoppers. Those all sound like reasonably new cars. There are other all-steel hoppers of smaller capacity, some 52' 6" solid-bottom gondolas with fixed ends, though these may have had wooden sides. It makes me wonder if the PG&E had agreements with their connecting roads to return their cars promptly, and not let them become free runners. Perhaps they needed every car to cover their own customers? Your Aye, Garth Groff
On 9/3/15 8:48 AM, destorzek@...
[STMFC] wrote:
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Re: Classic Freight Cars, Vol III- Refrigerator Cars
Benjamin Hom
Bill Welch wrote: "I was unaware there was a Volume Three, or even Vol. 2 of this title." There were 11 volumes: Vol. 1: 40 Foot Box Cars Vol. 2: Tank Cars Vol. 3: Refrigerator Cars Vol. 4: 40 Ft. Open & Closed Hopper Cars (mistitled as it contained many photos of shorter hoppers) Vol. 5: N.E. Railroad Work Equipment Vol. 6: Loaded Flats and Gondolas Vol. 7: More 40 Ft. Boxcars Vol. 8: 50 Ft. Boxcars Vol. 9: Insulated Boxcars & Mechanical Reefers Vol. 10: North American Work Trains & Equipment Vol. 11: High Capacity Covered Hoppers These are nice collections of mostly 1960s and 1970s rolling stock photos; however, treat all captions as suspect as there are many errors, including a few that are absolute howlers. Ben Hom
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Re: Car Service Rules
lstt100
I'll add to Tony's comments based on my 42 year railroad career, which predates list, but I was hanging around with agency and car distributors as early as 1964 and did do car ordering, supply and distribution.
Under Car Service Rule 15 which stated "shippers were responsible for making a request with local agents concerning cars needed for loading, a specific date, the commodity to be loaded and the destination of the car." This information was placed on a request for empties form, each railroad had a different variations, but they all had them. Lacking a car on hand at the station, the request was forwarded to local yard and or the car distributor in attempt to locate and appropriate car. Lacking a car on the division the request was escalated to adjacent divisions. Once an appropriate empty was found, even if it involved a backhaul, it was sent to the station for loading. Agent noted the car on his industry request form noting the car initial and number that was provided for the specific load. Car Service Division liked to go thru these reports and audit them for compliance. Agency personal were responsible for notifying customer which car was being provided for which load. Not always adhered to, but done most of the time. In the case of Freight Houses, specific locations for specific destinations were specified making the job of assigning a correct empty a little easier. Most local and switch crews did provide the correct cars to the correct shipper. Bill of Lading was usually not provided to agent until after car was loaded. Car Service Division did audit compliance, but non-compliance usually found a Car Service rep explaining why it was important to follow the Rules and little else. However, he would quickly remind you when your terminal wasn't getting enough cars, that the local non-compliance had caused car supply problems elsewhere which were now reflected at your terminal. At my Napervillle RPM Car Service presentation I presented the compliance numbers. Here they are again. 1926 to 1929, 81.6 percent average compliance, 1934-1940 76.5 percent average compliance. 1941 to 1948 ODT controls freight car fleet, but enforcement of Car Service Rules begins again in March 1947. May 1949 44.4 percent compliance, March 1951 18.8 percent compliance, July 1951 30 percent compliance, June 1954 62 percent compliance, June 1955 63 percent compliance, July 1956 65 percent compliance, July 1959 64 percent compliance. In 1959 freight houses average 81 percent compliance with industries averaging 61 percent. ICC "Service Orders" were legal and binding and had the authority of law. Fines could be assessed for non-compliance. Car Service Rules and "Special Orders" were not mandatory. There were NO fines for non-compliance. Dan Holbrook ---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote : Jim Betz wrote (in part):
Jim, your general questions have simple answers, and I will try to be brief. Shippers told the local agent what cars they needed, and where they were going. That information was transmitted to car distributors at the appropriate regional yard, who selected the car to send. So in fact, the empty car might well be selected for exactly each shipper's load. Of course, home road cars were used too, and were more interchangeable (relative to Car Service Rules). But the shipper did NOT say "send us 4 box cars," they said "we need 2 box cars going to St. Louis., one to Memphis, and one to Atlanta." The shipper chose the routing, and the formal car request was the Bill of Lading document, from which the Waybill was made out, but the shipper could less formally request empties with just the bare-bones information of what cars, and to where. All this has been well documented in many publications, and I have summarized it in clinics and magazine articles, as well as on my blog. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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