Date   

Re: Tichy models of ACL flats and gondolas

John Sykes III
 

I'm not an ACL wonk, so I might be wrong, but I think most of those flat cars were either in MOW service or had pulpwood bulkheads added by the mid-1950s, so in either case would not be found offline in 1960.  They had the class changed when modified, which is why I have some trouble following their history.  The Tichy car is really not an ACL prototype, but is very close.

As far as the lettering, my impression is that only the steamers, early diesels and passenger cars had the aluminum lettering.  Later it was dropped, since it was labor-intensive to apply (they used aluminum leaf as far as I know, which is applied the same as gold leaf -  PRR dropped that in the early 1950s to save costs).  Again, I really don't specialize in ACL, and especially their passenger cars, but I think they went from aluminum leaf on a purple letterboard to black letters on a plain stainless steel background.  Need help here though.

-- John


Re: Tichy models of ACL flats and gondolas

Justin May <jmay59@...>
 

My impression is that by 1960 they were held to on-line service only. Is that true?
Jim,
By 1954, only 21 of the P-11 series remained. Other groups are the P-9, and sub-groups such as the P-11C, P-11G, and others from the absorption of AB&C, such as the P-15 class. Speaking in generalities, yes, most of those cars that remained in revenue service were being utilized by on-line customers only, as there wasn't a need for a 40-ton flat car by most shippers. Most were constructed in 1914, 1917 (40-ton capacity), with the P-15 class being constructed in 1926 and rated for 50-ton capacity. We ran a nice illustrated article of these cars in the Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler Issue 17 featuring the work of Tom Christensen along with several prototype photos.

http://s-clmodeler.aclsal.org/magimages/sclm17coverfull.jpg
http://s-clmodeler.aclsal.org/index.htm

Would there be any reasonable excuse for an interchange escapee in 1960? Also, wasn't ACL lettering aluminum, not white? If so, are there any appropriate aluminum ACL decals for these cars?
Yes. See Liljestrand and Sweetland's Atlantic Coast Line Freight Cars book for a nice in-service shot of ACL 76771 on 10/10/1961.

The Mainline Modeler article by Mark Montague from May 1984 features a good collection of these cars as well in numerous types of service albeit most are pre-1960. ACL freight car lettering was either white, yellow, or red, never silver as that was reserved for motive power. These particular cars were lettered in white and the included Tichy decals are good.

Justin May


Re: Door selection

John Sykes III
 

Alex:

Go to the Fallen Flag website.  The LV 63699 is in a group that has 7' wide Youngstown doors and Dreadnaught 1+3/4 ends.  Other details are visible in those photos, but looks like an AAR 1944-style car.

Not sure of the GMO cars.  Probably some on that site too.

-- John


Re: Car Service Rules

Dave Nelson
 

Seems to me the SCO90 charts would be of considerable interest to both this group and the OPSIG group.  I wonder where they might be found today?

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 1:36 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Car Service Rules

 

When a car was located in an area that had no direct connection to owner, the railroad was obligated by record rights to return the car in the reverse of the loaded movement.  Much of this was solved when SCO90 was implemented in 1953 and short home routes were specified to get cars back home to owners with no regard to record rights. SCO90 charts specified who would take what owners cars at what junction points.

Dan Holbrook


Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..

O Fenton Wells
 

Yes, Bill the Speedwitch kit was what I was referring to.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 12:21 PM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

The MKT 40-ft steel auto cars had two eight-foot doors and improved Dreadnaught ends. I don't think the IM car has either of these features.


Fenton, Speedwitch offered a SS MKT car kit.

Bill Welch




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Door selection

Alexander Schneider Jr
 

I picked up a couple of C&BT kits for AAR 1944 box cars, and would appreciate recommendations whether to use the Youngstown (ribbed) or Superior (panel) doors. I have quite a few reference books about NYC, which is the railroad I model, but can use some help on foreign road cars.

 

LV 63699

 

GM&O 52287

 

I also bought NYC 70590, a 40’ automobile car of lot 760-B built in 1947, but found a photo on the Canada Southern site showing Youngstown doors. I will overlook that the built date on the model is July 1945.

 

Thanks.

 

Alex Schneider


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

lstt100
 

I would advise those of you interested in the PNW lumber traffic to obtain or get on loan, "American Commodity Flow" by Edward L. Uhlman, published in 1957 by University of Washington Press in Seattle. He encapsulates some of the carload waybill statistics for 20 states including Washington.  He also gives reference to "Expanding Domestic Markets for Northwestern Lumber" by Roy Sampson, published in Pacific Northwest Business January 1956 pages 3 thru 8.

Quote from book: " In a splendid recent analysis, Roy Sampson shows how Washington and Douglas fir region lumber is able to compete with southern pine in spite of being almost three times as far from market.  Production costs of Douglas fir lumber average 15 to 20 per cent below southern pine from 1939 to 1952, with absolute cost spread between the two regions widening after the war. (This presumably reflects, among other factors, the large size of Northwest trees and mills, compared to the diminishing supply of large stands in the cut over South.) In addition, rates per ton mile are less for long haul, as is normally the case; but, even more significant southern pine weighs up to 15 per cent more per board foot than Douglas fir, and transport rates are quoted on a weight basis, whereas lumber is sold on a board-foot basis.  (For most purposes, the quality of Douglas fir seems to be certainly as high as, if not higher than, most southern pine.)  The results of these differences are seen in the map of estimated delivered costs, which shows the Pacific Northwest competing on equal or superior terms in the industrial belt, the great market of the country."

Dan Holbrook


Re: Car service rules

lstt100
 

Rules apply to all equipment with the exception of: tank cars, specially equipped boxcars, LO cars in later years and any car specified in Special Car Orders. 

Dan Holbrook


Tichy models of ACL flats and gondolas

Jim Mischke
 




I recall that the Tichy flat car and related composite gondola are reasonable Atlantic Coast Line prototypes.  These survived in very limited numbers past 1960.  


A couple questions.   My impression is that by 1960 they were held to on-line service only.  Is that true? Would there be any reasonable excuse for an interchange escapee in 1960?   Also, wasn't ACL lettering aluminum, not white?   If so, are there any appropriate aluminum ACL decals for these cars?



Car service rules

Paul Catapano
 

PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.
I was under the impression that the car service rules GENERALLY pertained only to 40' boxcar's.

Paul Catapano
Winchester, Va.


Re: Car Service Rules

lstt100
 

Easiest explanation is the rules themselves.

Rule 1 Home cars shall not be used for movement of traffic beyond the limites of the home road when the use of other suitable cars under these rules is practicable.

Rule 2(A) Foreign cars on a direct connection must be forwarded to the home road loaded or empty in manner provided below.

Rule 2(B) If empty at junction with the home road and loading at that point via the home is not available they must subject to Rule 6, be delivered to it at that junction, unless an exception to requirement be agreed to be roads involved.  When holding road has no physical connection with the home road andis obliged to use an intermediate road or roads, to place the car on home rails under the provision of  this paragraph and the car has records rights to such intermediate road or roads, it may be so delivered.

Rule 2(C) If empty at other than junction points with the home road, cars under this rule may be. !. loaded via any route so that the home road will participate in the freight rate, or, 2, moved locally in the direction of the home road.  3. Moved locally in an opposite direction from the home road, or delivered to a short line or a switching road, if to be loaded for delivery on or movement via the home road, or, 4. Delivered empty to home road at any junction point subject to Rule 6, or, 5. Delivered empty to road from which originally received under load at the junction where received, or at another junction mutually agreed upon, if such road is also a direct connectoin of the home road, or 6. returned empty to the delivering road when handled only in switching service.

These were the rules.  How a specific agent, terminal or division handled the empties was up to the people operating the railroad.  If there were any Special Orders in effect, they had to be consulted and complied with.

To show everyone how confusing it was to even professional railroaders.  Imagine a WP plain boxcar being loaded with lumber from California to Buffalo, NY routed: WP-Salt Lake City-DRGW-Pueblo-MP-St.Louis-NKP.  Once unloaded car was reloaded at Buffalo with small electric motors for Spokane, WA routed NKP-Chicago-CBQ-St.Paul-NP.  This is in compliance with rules account it is being loaded in correct direction and will be located in an adjacent Car Service Map territory.  Once car was unloaded at Spokane and no load was available what happens to the empty? NP has no direct connection to WP.  Before 1953 and SCO90 which authorized the short home routing of empty plain boxcars, car would have had to been routed eastward back to CB&Q at Twin Cities and if load was not found on way east car would have to return to Chicago and lacking a load on CB&Q to get car back home, CB&Q would deliver car to NKP at Chicago who could look for a load and if not available would be obligated to return car to MP at St.Louis to get is started back home. 

When a car was located in an area that had no direct connection to owner, the railroad was obligated by record rights to return the car in the reverse of the loaded movement.  Much of this was solved when SCO90 was implemented in 1953 and short home routes were specified to get cars back home to owners with no regard to record rights. SCO90 charts specified who would take what owners cars at what junction points.

Dan Holbrook


Re: B&O Gondola color

Jim Mischke
 



Westerfield resin kits came with researched directions and prototype information, be aware that they reflect the best collective wisdom at the time, now some are well over 20 years old.


One would be hard put to find any prototype red B&O steel gondolas in revenue numbers in the STMFC era before 1960.


Red Caboose came out with a red B&O 42' steel flat car, this is a foobie.




Re: Car Service Rules

Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
 

OOPs! 


With the general population ratio of foreign road to home road cars on the SP being anywhere from 3 out of three to perhaps 4 out of 5 box cars it is doubtful if there would be an issue or difficulty having an empty foreign road car available to send eastward. 


The above should read … “2 out of three” … 
Sorry about the typo.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA




Re: flat car, NC&StL - Apology

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

A few weeks ago there was a discussion on the Tichy NC&StL flat car. I stated that there was
an article with drawings on this car in the March 1989 Mainline Modeler. As I was starting to convert
the car that I did for SP&S bak to the proper car I dug out this issue of Mainline Modeler. The article
in that issue was Mont Switzer's excellent offering on building the car along with a grader load.
After more searching I determined that the article that I was thinking of was on an ACL flat that
was very similar to the Tichy car in the May 1984 Mainline Modeler.

I apologize for the fuzzyness of my memory. Mainline Modeler presented such a wealth of information
over it's 25 year run. Articles that were not pertinate when the issue came out became pertinate
years later. A very treasured time is to just sit and review this collection. So much has been forgotten.

Bill Pardie


Re: Car Service Rules

Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hello Jim & Group,

I have been lurking on this thread and have greatly enjoyed the knowledge that has been learned. 

That said, I am a bit confused by Jim’s question… Would not any foreign road car loaded in Roseburg head eastward would be considered a proper loading per the Car Service Rules?

I do not believe that the “rules” specifically state that the foreign car must be loaded and shipped to a destination on that specific foreign railroad as long as it is headed more or less in the general direction of that home road. 

Let’s say that load of plywood is billed to a purchaser located in Vinita, Oklahoma, (served by either the MKT or SLSF … I will let you choose which of the two) and that plywood is loaded into a PRR box car. As long as that PRR box car is getting closer to home — closer to Chicago or St. Louis, the two major connection points as an example — the car is being moved in compliance with the Car Service Rules. 

With the general population ratio of foreign road to home road cars on the SP being anywhere from 3 out of three to perhaps 4 out of 5 box cars it is doubtful if there would be an issue or difficulty having an empty foreign road car available to send eastward. 

The above is just my thoughts and a crude understanding of the “rules”. I am looking forward to learning more.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Sep 6, 2015, at 10:48 AM, jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Dan and all,

  Please remember that in all of this thread what -I'm- talking
about/interested in is the ubiquitous box car and not about
special purpose cars or cars with "return to sender" on them
or cars that are "contaminated" by the load(s) they carry.

  Your last response helps - but it still prompts me to ask ... just 
how much effort - or delayed delivery to the shipper - did the 
RRs really go to in order to satisfy the car service rules?
  I'm guessing that most shippers were unhappy with any delays 
in the delivery of the car (for most loads for most shippers).  
Storing product (what ever product it is) for extended time can 
be a problem for the shipper (additional cost).  

  Using the Roseburg plywood mill as an example - I would
suspect that the car service rules (using a foreign car) were
primarily used for cars that were already in Roseburg ...
that were being continuously re-supplied by empties from
Eugene.  And those re-supply empties would definitely be
using/considering the car service rules.  I'm operating 
under the assumption that Roseburg - as a city/area -
had a definite imbalance in terms of loads in -vs- loads
out ... the mills there would be producing far more loads
than would be 'consumed' by the population/industries
in Roseburg.  So there had to be a constant supply of 
empties coming to Roseburg from Eugene (and possibly
elsewhere).
  But if the supply of foreign empties wasn't keeping up with 
the demand - right there in Roseburg - then I would expect
that Roseburg (and then Eugene) would be using whatever
box car is available ... even if it meant sending a GN or an
SP car to St. Louis.
  In fact - if I understand the basic idea of "keeping the cars
busy (loaded more than not)" correctly ===> any box car 
that took a -load- to Roseburg  would probably be the 
"first choice" for a car to be loaded in Roseburg.  Yes,
they would have tried to use the car service rules - but
it doesn't make a lot of sense to haul that car empty to
Eugene ... and another empty from Eugene to Roseburg ...
in order to satisfy the car service rules.

  Your response seems to imply that it was actually more
profitable to use a foreign car for a shipment to a foreign
destination.  I 'sort of' understand why you are saying that - 
but it just doesn't seem to "fit" with my understanding of 
how revenue flowed for loaded cars versus empties.
  My suspicion is that the reluctance to send home road
cars off road would be directly related to longer term
trends (over time) - rather than the immediate need to
supply a car for a load (now/short term).  And similarly
if the car is from a foreign road ... but the load isn't to a
destination that makes sense (by the car service rules).
  In fact the car service rules themselves have "wiggle
words" in them in that the further you go down the list
the less "correspondence" there is between the destination
and the owning RR.

  Yes, obviously, if the car selected can be loaded, 
transported, and unloaded ... all on home rails and 
using a home road car ... the revenue was significantly
increased for the RR ===> assuming that it was going
to a destination where it can easily be re-used for 
another load.  Going anywhere.  But I also suspect
that those kind of loads were relatively rare (for box
cars).

  Am I all wet here or do I have the basics right?

                                                                           - Jim B.



Re: Broadway Limited 6000 gallon chemical tank car

mwbauers
 

The system they are using is creating shortages several months before the product is even built.

That just doesn’t seem to be a healthy sign that the bean counters in charge really know what they are doing.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Sep 6, 2015, at 1:54 PM, SUVCWORR wrote:


Dealer orders were due 9/4  with a delivery date of spring 2016.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: tony 


I will definitely want a Penn Salt and a PPG car, maybe others, but these are some way off, are they Not?
Tony Thompson 


Re: Broadway Limited 6000 gallon chemical tank car

SUVCWORR@...
 


Dealer orders were due 9/4  with a delivery date of spring 2016.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: tony tony@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2015 1:35 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Broadway Limited 6000 gallon chemical tank car



I will definitely want a Penn Salt and a PPG car, maybe others, but these are some way off, are they Not?
Tony Thompson



On Sep 5, 2015, at 6:55 AM, SUVCWORR@... [STMFC] < STMFC@...> wrote:

 


Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Justin May’s link to this photo:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mkt/mkt2709abp.jpg

Shows by the shadow of the ladder that bent ladders not completely parallel to the side of the car are not just a modeler’s problem, but the prototype’s problem too . . .

 

Schuyler

 



Bill,

The prototype series were as follows:

45001-45385, 385 cars built 1945 through 1946 from Youngstown steel body parts. They featured a 7'/8' door combination, Universal 200W hand brakes, with Miner draft gear. The cars also featured alternate center riveting on the sides of the car, and were 10'6" interior height with 4/4 IDE ends. In 1962 and again in 1965, the cars were renumbered into 2400-2599 and 2600-2749. I could not locate any of the as constructed photos online, however, there are several examples of detail photos of the car features. The most glaring error is that the Red Caboose is a 10'0" IH car whereas the prototype is 10'6" IH. The side sill needs to be extended further so that it is deeper, and the ACR pattern applied.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mkt/mkt2697akg.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mkt/mkt2709abp.jpg
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=93479&Page=2
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3888766
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2385682

A better alternative to this car would be to use an older Front Range 4090 40' double door series kit, replace the ends with Branchline 4-4 IDE ends, shape the side sill using styrene, replace the roof with a Murphy panel roof, apply Archer ACR rivet decals, and other specific details, then letter with the new Speedwitch MKT decals.

Justin May


Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..

Armand Premo
 


Speaking of auto boxcars (XA) conspicuously absent are NYC cars.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..

 

The red caboose cars are pretty accurate for the SOO, square corners, and Seaboard, round corners. 

40 ft auto cars were very prototype specific. 

It's not the Red Caboose, Intermountain actually, doesn't  care it's that they have to amortize the models. 
Information on these cars exists in the list archives. 
Brian J. Carlson

On Sep 6, 2015, at 1:06 PM, bill stanton bill_stanton60@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Wow...this is really disappointing...it seems that almost nothing is right about this car...


I knew Red Caboose wasn't perfect, but I thought they cared more than this sorry example...this isn't any better than Walthers (which I no longer purchase)...


Live and learn...I really must research more before I buy...


In any case, thanks very much for the info




From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of Justin May jmay59@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 6, 2015 9:47 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..
 
 

> What is wrong with the recently released IM/Red Caboose car (it seems to match data in my 1949 ORER)?

Bill,

The prototype series were as follows:

45001-45385, 385 cars built 1945 through 1946 from Youngstown steel body parts. They featured a 7'/8' door combination, Universal 200W hand brakes, with Miner draft gear. The cars also featured alternate center riveting on the sides of the car, and were 10'6" interior height with 4/4 IDE ends. In 1962 and again in 1965, the cars were renumbered into 2400-2599 and 2600-2749. I could not locate any of the as constructed photos online, however, there are several examples of detail photos of the car features. The most glaring error is that the Red Caboose is a 10'0" IH car whereas the prototype is 10'6" IH. The side sill needs to be extended further so that it is deeper, and the ACR pattern applied.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mkt/mkt2697akg.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mkt/mkt2709abp.jpg
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=93479&Page=2
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3888766
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2385682

A better alternative to this car would be to use an older Front Range 4090 40' double door series kit, replace the ends with Branchline 4-4 IDE ends, shape the side sill using styrene, replace the roof with a Murphy panel roof, apply Archer ACR rivet decals, and other specific details, then letter with the new Speedwitch MKT decals.

Justin May

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Intermountain kits & RTR for sale

genegreen1942@...
 

FOR SALE.  Prices as noted below.


INTERMOUNTAIN N SCALE

65773 postwar NYC Pacemaker 1948-49 w/Youngstown door

4 available at $10 each plus shipping.


65777 postwar NYC Pacemaker 1960 w/Youngstown door

6 available at $10 each plus shipping.


65778 postwar NYC Pacemaker 1960 w/Superior door

6 available at $10 each plus shipping.


PLEASE NOTE:  The above are N scale.  Below is HO scale.


HO Scale undecorated Intermountain kits.  All are new, untouched,

gray plastic in original boxes.


Price per kit is $16.00, plus actual shipping charge.

Quantities available as indicated.

 

ITEM......DESCRIPTION......................................QTY


40495...40' PS-1 standard box car w/7' door....1 

40497...40' PS-1 standard box car w/8' door....1 

40499...40' PS-1 box car w/6' door.....................1 

40599...R-40-23 refrigerator car........................1 

40799...10' IH AAR box car 40' w/6'door .......6 

40899...10'-6" high AAR box car 40' w/6' door..6

41099...12 panel 40' box car w/6' door.........3

41899...Modified AAR 40' box car....................1 

42750A..Caswell gondola with AB Brake.........2 

42750K..Caswell gondola with K Brake...........2 

42999...Stock car K brake..................................1 

43299...Milk car kit..............................................1 

CCS1199..ATSF early steel caboose..............1 


INTERMOUNTAIN RTR Freight Cars (NOT KITS)

45835-03...40' mod. '37 AAR box car 10'6" Santa Fe Bx-37-Chief...1 $29.60

46072-12...40' WW II emergency box car CNW...................................1 $24.00

46071-16...40' WW II emergency box car Santa Fe............................1 $24.00


Please contact me off list at genegreen1942 at yahoo dot com.


Gene Green

Out in the Badlands of New Mexico


55461 - 55480 of 192618