Date   

Re: Norfolk & Western Covered Hoppers

Charles Hladik
 

Tim,
 
    And the Diamond Alkali at the Painesville/Fairport, Ohio plant called them "soup ponds".  As a kid, Dad told me if I ever wanted to get rid of a body, throw it in one of the soup ponds.
 
Chuck Hladik 
 

In a message dated 9/22/2015 4:29:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Much of this came from Barberton, Ohio. The Columbia Chemical Co., known locally as "The Chemical" was the site of the first commercial use of the Solvay process to make this. A plaque next to one of the many "dead" lakes states this. These lakes are still extant and are pools of chemical end product with so many chemicals in them that nothing grows there. This plant, later owned by Pittsburg Plate Glass, was served by the Akron and Barberton Belt Railroad (A&BBRR) which interchanged with the PRR and Erie in Barberton. The PRR had covered hoppers in the 50's with the stencil "Return to Barberton, Ohio when empty."

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 1:31 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 


I think soda ash (sodium carbonate) was produced by Solvay in West Virginia,
although I don't know if the N&W got any of that traffic. But soda ash can be
carried in covered hoppers -- unlike caustic soda which I think has to be shipped
in a liquid form in specially lined tanks because it is so corrosive.

Tim O'



The N&W had an important branch that served Saltville, Virginia. Olin Mathieson had extensive works there and produced chlorine and caustic soda, plus dry ice carried in the famous Mathieson reefers. There were other companies there as well. It is possible that some N&W hoppers were assigned to carry dry bulk products from Saltville. Perhaps we have some N&W mavens here who could shed more light on this.

Garth Groff



Re: Kadee's new tank car

Ed Hawkins
 

On Sep 22, 2015, at 6:35 PM, jmischke@att.net [STMFC] wrote:

What would be some good road names for the new Kadee tank car?    Are
there any foobies that are tempting yet NOT consistent with this
model?

Some Warren and Hooker Chemicals tank cars have the look.
Jim,
Kadee won' be doing any foobies. Warren had a bunch of them. There are
probably 40 or more different schemes, however quite a few are SHPX
with different lessee stencils.
Ed


Re: seasonal coal traffic

Allen Rueter
 

Lake coal (1940) is addressed on page 16

https://archive.org/stream/illinoisminerali74vosk#page/16/mode/2up

Allen Rueter


Re: Were Head blocks outlawed ?

John
 

It's a feature of Van Dyke's X car patent, US 768888, of Aug. 30, 1904.  It shows up on the ACF Type 7 underframe, but not on the Type 4 which has heavy wooden head blocks.

John Bopp
Farmington Hills, MI

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 6:10 PM, Cyril and Lynn Durrenberger durrecj@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Do you know when the center anchorage was invented by John Van Dyke?

Cyril Durrenberger



Re: Norfolk & Western Covered Hoppers

Jim Mischke
 



Point of information:


The N&W line from Columbus to Sandusky, Ohio was acquired from PRR in 1964 at the time of the N&W/NKP/Wabash merger, partly to allow the N&W to link up with its new acquisitions.    The abundance of sand and gravel quarries on this line would have benefited PRR and its modelers during the STMFC list period before 1960.


Kadee's new tank car

Jim Mischke
 



What would be some good road names for the new Kadee tank car?    Are there any foobies that are tempting yet NOT consistent with this model?


Some Warren and Hooker Chemicals tank cars have the look.



Jim Mischke



Re: Were Head blocks outlawed ?

Tony Thompson
 

Cyril Durrenberger wrote:

 

Do you know when the center anchorage was invented by John Van Dyke?


  Early in 1903, according to Albert Carr's book about UTL (pages 129, 130).

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Were Head blocks outlawed ?

Cyril Durrenberger
 

Do you know when the center anchorage was invented by John Van Dyke?

Cyril Durrenberger


Re: Were Head blocks outlawed ?

Tony Thompson
 

          Who can tell me if head blocks on early tank cars were outlawed and when??


   I don't think the head block was outlawed. Once the center anchorage invented by John Van Dyke was made available outside UTL, that arrangement was almost universally adopted within a year or two. It was a far superior way of restraining tank movement. But older cars with head blocks were around awhile afterward.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Were Head blocks outlawed ?

Rich Yoder
 

Hi Gang,

          Who can tell me if head blocks on early tank cars were outlawed and when??
Sincerely,

Rich Yoder


Re: Norfolk & Western Covered Hoppers

Tony Thompson
 

Thomas Klosterman wrote:

 
Much of this came from Barberton, Ohio. The Columbia Chemical Co., known locally as "The Chemical" was the site of the first commercial use of the Solvay process to make this. A plaque next to one of the many "dead" lakes states this. These lakes are still extant and are pools of chemical end product with so many chemicals in them that nothing grows there. This plant, later owned by Pittsburg Plate Glass, was served by the Akron and Barberton Belt Railroad (A&BBRR) which interchanged with the PRR and Erie in Barberton. The PRR had covered hoppers in the 50's with the stencil "Return to Barberton, Ohio when empty."

     John Pitcairn, co-founder of PPG and its president in 1899, in that year founded the Columbia Chemical Co. in Barberton to produce soda ash, an important constituent in glassmaking. Though an independent company, it always served PPG's interests, and was later folded into PPG as part of their Chemicals Division. PPG also opened a new plant in 1934 in Corpus Christi, Texas, named Southern Alkali Corporation (tank car reporting mark SACX) and later combined it with Columbia as the Columbia-Southern Alkali, later Columbia-Southern Chemical Corporation. All these were merged into PPG as the Chemicals Division in 1961.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: seasonal coal traffic and hoppers in odd places (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Group;

My area around Pittsburgh was both an originator, and destination, in that each season had a different look for demand, and different grades in use, with transportation of barge coal locking up sometime in Nov., and other aspects.

Coal came down the Monongahela River at all times except during strikes or extreme weather events. That coal was medium and high grades of bituminous, in high demand as met coal, but also for use in locomotives, coal-fired plants, and other uses.

So, here is what I think is also important: coal (also coke) hoppers did get around, and some of it was seasonal. During the busy season (late summer thru winter), users were confiscating and/or hoarding hoppers for their use. Those might include anything. I saw hoppers off the ATSF, SP, IC, CB&Q and elsewhere on small off-line ops like the C&I or PRR coal branches, in that period. They grabbed them up where they could...

And to reinforce Chuck's assertion, many industries in my area used commodities hauled in hoppers from areas all over the country: fluorspar from the mid-west, nickel from Canada, manganese from the Rockies, you name it. Those hoppers didn't show up routinely, but there were always (like every day) surprises.

Another point: Open twins from anthracite roads in iron ore and additive service. I saw these ALL time time: Ex-LNE twins off the B&O; RDG twins, B&O twins, even twins off the Shawmut, Erie, C&O, P&WV, etc, some in ore service because the roads didn't like using their valuable triples and quads that were hoarded for coal service.

Just some thoughts,

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 2:52 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] Re: seasonal coal traffic



Paolo,
yes and yes, and yes to Alan's comment about metallurgical coal.

In Duluth, MN there was the municipal steam heating works for the city. It only converted to natural gas in the last decade I believe.

The steel mills in West Duluth / Steelton area - big, big, user of eastern coals. Plant closed in the 60's so date is complete for this list.

NSP (Northern States Power - with the mascot - Reddy Kilowatt) was a big customer in the Twin Cities and upper Midwest had many, municipal coal fired, rail served power plants. Detroit Lakes, MN had one in the middle of the downtown area.

In Wisconsin, you had much foundry use of coal - Many manhole covers here listing Neenah, WI as the place of casting.

The heavy foundries of Milwaukee. (Charles Hostetler could add more here) The Be loit, WI area.

Dennis S and others could cover more on northern Wisconsin/northern Michigan I would believe.

In reading traffic reports on NP branch lines, coal, lake coal, was the biggest commodity listed till the forties (going to lumber yards as the coal dealer) when it shifted to coal/tank cars being equal. But much of this oil initially was listed as used for road building, so if in your area concrete was the choice for roads, it could differ. Still, coal remained a constant top or near top commodity into the 50's.

The real unknown here is the cost of cheap water transport and the role it played.

However - this all being past history, in my Twin Cities studies, the Q transported coal here from southern Illinois. The transit of lake coal a thousand (?) miles via water, and the one hundred and fifty miles ra il transport (Twin Ports-Twin Cities) and the Q still never made real inroads into the Twin Cities coal market. The BTU content of both coals was comparable. The TC market remained strongly lake coal through the time of this list. Only oil and natural gas knocked it off the throne in the late 50's /early sixties, and that was - because of BTU content.

On the other hand, the M&StL had a river/rail interface just below the U of MN west bank area, and this did do well - because the coal was barged upstream. Again rail cost vs water transport cost.

As I have stated prior - one tank car of oil (10K gal IIRC) equaled 24 cars of coal BTU wise.

My mothers father was very talkative of how he had to only top off his new kerosene home heater only once or twice a day, with a five gallon can.

My own father talked about as a y oung man, servicing the furnace in the morning before school, after school, in the evening, and before bed when you would throw in one piece of coke, and a few pieces of coal, and that coke kept the furnace going till about 4AM, when you threw a few pieces of coal in and the house was warm when you got up for school. And then repeated the cycle.

No wonder my grandfather was happy.
&n bsp; Jim Dick - St. Paul.




Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Norfolk & Western Covered Hoppers

Eric Hansmann
 

Additionally, there were many sand and gravel operations on the N&W line to Sandusky, Ohio. There were a few Portland cement producers in Ohio, but none seemed to have had N&W service.

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 12:48 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Norfolk & Western Covered Hoppers

 




Garth and All,

 

The Lonestar Cement Company was at the end of the Lonestar Branch of the N&W; the branch was/is  off the Shenandoah Division, just north of Roanoke, VA.  It was/is a significant operation.

 

Here is a Google maps link:

 

 

Several years ago at a NWHS convention in Roanoke, we were able to tour the current facility which was quite impressive.

 

Jim Brewer

 


From: "Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC]"
To: "STMFC"
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 4:50:45 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Norfolk & Western Covered Hoppers

 

 

Jim,

 

Yes, mostly cement, though I don't know where any cement plants were on the N&W. That said, the N&W territory in Virginia and West Virginia is rich in karst limestone, and there were likely several.

 

The N&W had an important branch that served Saltville, Virginia. Olin Mathieson had extensive works there and produced chlorine and caustic soda, plus dry ice carried in the famous Mathieson reefers. There were other companies there as well. It is possible that some N&W hoppers were assigned to carry dry bulk products from Saltville. Perhaps we have some N&W mavens here who could shed more light on this.

 

Yours Aye,

 


Garth Groff

 

On 9/21/15 6:18 PM, 'James F. Brewer' jfbrewer@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Cement.

Jim Brewer

Glenwood, MD

 


From: "land46lord@... [STMFC]"
To: "STMFC"

Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 5:54:13 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Norfolk & Western Covered Hoppers

 

 

Greetings,

 

Can anyone advise me what was the driving commodity that caused the Norfolk & Western to acquire/build covered hoppers prior to 1957? 

 

 

Louie B. Hydrick
Associate Broker
RE/MAX Partners
4316 Washington Rd.
Evans GA 30809-3957

 

706-922-7355 office
706-922-7368 direct office
706-922-7356 fax
706-832-6263 cell

 

Or visit me on the web at:www.csrahomesandland.com
or http://www.louiebhydrick.remax-georgia.com/

 

 

 

 



Re: caboose marker lights

Gary Ray
 

Klaus Keil is doing a clinic on just such a lighting circuit in the Sierra Division (PCR/NMRA) on Oct. 10 in Paradise, CA. It is also described in our April, 2015, newsletter. Can be for DC or DCC.
Gary Ray
Magalia, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 8:22 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights

Robert,

Look in the FILES folder for a sub-folder about "Flicker Free". If you can't find anything contact me off list and I'll send you a description/circuit diagram. it is designed specifically for cabeese and passenger cars and works equally well in both DC and DCC.
- Jim B.


------------------------------------
Posted by: jimbetz <jimbetz@jimbetz.com>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Hoppers in odd places

Charles Peck
 

We might keep in mind that hoppers can carry less than common cargos. Used ties for a garden shop as an example. Yes, I might use a gondola if one were handy but....

When I was working on the lakeboats, we had a partial cargo once of iron ore consigned to Maybelline.  Iron ore as an ingredient for makeup.  From that I can figure that there may well have been ore cars headed to someplace where there was no steel mill, no pig iron production.   Those odd hoppers might have been hauling something just as odd.  Some odd mineral for making colored glass maybe.

Chuck Peck in FL


Re: Norfolk & Western Covered Hoppers

Thomas Klosterman
 

Much of this came from Barberton, Ohio. The Columbia Chemical Co., known locally as "The Chemical" was the site of the first commercial use of the Solvay process to make this. A plaque next to one of the many "dead" lakes states this. These lakes are still extant and are pools of chemical end product with so many chemicals in them that nothing grows there. This plant, later owned by Pittsburg Plate Glass, was served by the Akron and Barberton Belt Railroad (A&BBRR) which interchanged with the PRR and Erie in Barberton. The PRR had covered hoppers in the 50's with the stencil "Return to Barberton, Ohio when empty."

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 1:31 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 


I think soda ash (sodium carbonate) was produced by Solvay in West Virginia,
although I don't know if the N&W got any of that traffic. But soda ash can be
carried in covered hoppers -- unlike caustic soda which I think has to be shipped
in a liquid form in specially lined tanks because it is so corrosive.

Tim O'



The N&W had an important branch that served Saltville, Virginia. Olin Mathieson had extensive works there and produced chlorine and caustic soda, plus dry ice carried in the famous Mathieson reefers. There were other companies there as well. It is possible that some N&W hoppers were assigned to carry dry bulk products from Saltville. Perhaps we have some N&W mavens here who could shed more light on this.

Garth Groff



Re: seasonal coal traffic

paul.doggett2472@...
 

Armand

Probably the same as a DT&I 2 bay hopper was doing in the bay area on the SP about the same time.

Paul Doggett UK




Sent from Samsung mobile

"'Armand' armprem2@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
 



I wish someone could tell me what a CB&Q hopper was doing in Northern Vermont in December of 1950?Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 3:16 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: seasonal coal traffic

 




---In STMFC@..., <jcdworkingonthenp@...> wrote :
The real unknown here is the cost of cheap water transport and the role it played.

However - this all being past history, in my Twin Cities studies, the Q transported coal here from southern Illinois. The transit of lake coal a thousand (?) miles via water, and the one hundred and fifty miles rail transport (Twin Ports-Twin Cities) and the Q still never made real inroads into the Twin Cities coal market. The BTU content of both coals was comparable. The TC market remained strongly lake coal through the time of this list. Only oil and natural gas knocked it off the throne in the late 50's /early sixties, and that was - because of BTU content.
===============

I've often wondered where exactly to draw the line on the map separatin g rail hauled Midwestern coal from lake coal. You mentioned Neenah Foundry... keep in mind it's only maybe fifty miles from the lake at Manitowoc, and C. Reise had a coal pier in Manty. If Neenah Foundry used eastern coal, it was more likely to have come via lake boat than all rail through Chicago. As it was, every major port on the upper lakes had a coal pier; Duluth/Superior, Ashland, Marquette, Sault Ste. Marie, Escanaba, Green Bay, and Manitowoc come to mind, and I'm sure I've missed a few. Wisconsin Electric Power's big (for the time) generating plant at Port Washington, thirty or so miles north of Milwaukee, was built on the lake front specifically so they could take coal directly from lake boats - and this may have been the most circuitous water haul of any, all the way up around the tip of Michigan, and then all the way back down the other side. Yet, while the plant had a rail connection (via former interurban trackage) they never too coal by rail as far as I know.

Dennis Storzek

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Re: seasonal coal traffic

Armand Premo
 


I wish someone could tell me what a CB&Q hopper was doing in Northern Vermont in December of 1950?Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 3:16 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: seasonal coal traffic

 




---In STMFC@..., wrote :
The real unknown here is the cost of cheap water transport and the role it played.

However - this all being past history, in my Twin Cities studies, the Q transported coal here from southern Illinois. The transit of lake coal a thousand (?) miles via water, and the one hundred and fifty miles rail transport (Twin Ports-Twin Cities) and the Q still never made real inroads into the Twin Cities coal market. The BTU content of both coals was comparable. The TC market remained strongly lake coal through the time of this list. Only oil and natural gas knocked it off the throne in the late 50's /early sixties, and that was - because of BTU content.
===============

I've often wondered where exactly to draw the line on the map separatin g rail hauled Midwestern coal from lake coal. You mentioned Neenah Foundry... keep in mind it's only maybe fifty miles from the lake at Manitowoc, and C. Reise had a coal pier in Manty. If Neenah Foundry used eastern coal, it was more likely to have come via lake boat than all rail through Chicago. As it was, every major port on the upper lakes had a coal pier; Duluth/Superior, Ashland, Marquette, Sault Ste. Marie, Escanaba, Green Bay, and Manitowoc come to mind, and I'm sure I've missed a few. Wisconsin Electric Power's big (for the time) generating plant at Port Washington, thirty or so miles north of Milwaukee, was built on the lake front specifically so they could take coal directly from lake boats - and this may have been the most circuitous water haul of any, all the way up around the tip of Michigan, and then all the way back down the other side. Yet, while the plant had a rail connection (via former interurban trackage) they never too coal by rail as far as I know.

Dennis Storzek

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: seasonal coal traffic -- Marquette MI Coal Docks

dssa1051
 

Al,

The coal facility made it to the mid 1970's but I think the self-unloading boats eliminated the need for a coal bridge to unload boats.  Now the boats unload into a hopper at the WE plant by the LS&I ore dock and unload on the ground at the Board of Power & Light power plant.  

Robert Oom
Kalamazoo, MI


ICC-103 ACF type 27 tank cars

dssa1051
 

In TSC #12 there is drawing on p. 306 for an ICC-103 ACF Type 27 tank car that includes a table of dimensions for 6000, 8000, 10000, and 12000 gal. tank cars.  I have been unable to find a photo of a 12,000 gal. car in the three articles on the ACF Type 27 tank cars in the RP Cyc. or in the Tank Car Color Guide. Was the 12,000 gal. car actually built or only in very limited numbers?


Sorry if this question has been asked before but I have been unable to search the messages like was possible earlier on this site.


Robert Oom

Kalamazoo, MI

55261 - 55280 of 192701