Date   

Re: CONX Tankcar ID?

Eric Hansmann
 

As a further point of clarification, doesn't the Type 21 or Type 27 designation refer to the frame design? 

The tanks themselves did not have a design tag, IIRC. 

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

On Oct 6, 2015, at 8:32 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Folks,

Can I point out something?  "Type 21" means that it was designed in 1921.  "Type 27" means that it was designed in... 1927.  So... a tank built in 1926 is probably going to be a type 21 ;) 

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: CONX Tankcar ID?

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

Can I point out something?  "Type 21" means that it was designed in 1921.  "Type 27" means that it was designed in... 1927.  So... a tank built in 1926 is probably going to be a type 21 ;) 

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: CONX Tankcar ID?

Mark Hemphill
 

Perfect, thanks Tim!

Mark Hemphill


Re: CONX Tankcar ID?

Mark Hemphill
 

Thanks for the update.  To my very untrained eye, they indeed look much closer to the 8,000 gallon Type 21 than the Type 27.  I had downloaded the Ted Culotta GATX 4121 and saved it as a "Type 27", so good to know it's actually a Type 21.

Given that there's not a very good view of the lettering in the photos -- at least, I haven't found a good photo yet -- a reasonable compromise could be to find a car lettered GATX or similar, and simply change the reporting marks.

Mark Hemphill


Re: CONX Tankcar ID?

Tim O'Connor
 

There are CONX decals in Microscale sets if you combine different sets.

87-235 has an assortment of 1950's 1960's tank car decals.

MC-4076 has CONX marks.

Or you might be able to find a "stencil" alphabet decal set.

Tim O'

Mark, I was wrong about ID'ing the tank cars as Type 27. I now think they're really AC&F Type 21.

Ted had two prints of GATX 4121 on Ebay. He called one a Type 27 and the other a Type 21.

In Richard Hendrickson's article on AC&F Type 21 tank cars in Railmodel Journal, February 1998, he includes the same photo.

So, two out of three votes goes for a Type 21. Maybe just shortening the dome height on the PK2/Walthers tank car will get you pretty close. Good luck on the decals, though.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV



---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <markwmhemphill@...> wrote :

Thanks to everyone for the education I just received. It would appear that the IM 8,000 gallon Type 27 would be about as close as I could get to these, but it clearly doesn't have the correct dome, the four straps, the correct saddles, the correct stub sills, etc. etc. OK, a very heavy modification then, plus finding correct decals.

I find it interesting that such old cars were lasting so late in revenue service, but in this service I doubt the cycle was under 30 days, possibly even 90 days.

Mark Hemphill


Re: CONX Tankcar ID?

brianleppert@att.net
 

Mark, I was wrong about ID'ing the tank cars as Type 27.  I now think they're really AC&F Type 21.

Ted had two prints of GATX 4121 on Ebay.  He called one a Type 27 and the other a Type 21.

In Richard Hendrickson's article on AC&F Type 21 tank cars in Railmodel Journal, February 1998, he includes the same photo.

So, two out of three votes goes for a Type 21.  Maybe just shortening the dome height on the PK2/Walthers tank car will get you pretty close.  Good luck on the decals, though.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV



---In STMFC@..., <markwmhemphill@...> wrote :

Thanks to everyone for the education I just received.  It would appear that the IM 8,000 gallon Type 27 would be about as close as I could get to these, but it clearly doesn't have the correct dome, the four straps, the correct saddles, the correct stub sills, etc. etc.  OK, a very heavy modification then, plus finding correct decals.  

I find it interesting that such old cars were lasting so late in revenue service, but in this service I doubt the cycle was under 30 days, possibly even 90 days.

Mark Hemphill


Re: CONX Tankcar ID?

Mark Hemphill
 

Thanks to everyone for the education I just received.  It would appear that the IM 8,000 gallon Type 27 would be about as close as I could get to these, but it clearly doesn't have the correct dome, the four straps, the correct saddles, the correct stub sills, etc. etc.  OK, a very heavy modification then, plus finding correct decals.  

I find it interesting that such old cars were lasting so late in revenue service, but in this service I doubt the cycle was under 30 days, possibly even 90 days.

Mark Hemphill


Sorry guys

Andy Carlson
 

I apologize. My message was meant solely for one individual.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA









Re: CONX Tankcar ID?

Thomas Birkett
 

It indicates 5-1/2 x 10 inch bearings, not tank capacity. They could have
had the 5-1/2 x 10s in stock from some scrapped cars, or the density of the
product might be more

80,000 lb. capacity would indicate 5 x 9 inch bearings

Tom Birkett

Bartlesville, OK



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 4:34 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: CONX Tankcar ID?






4121 has a 100,000 lb capacity -- Wouldn't that indicate a larger car?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121728464551

I think the design of the saddles are an important spotting feature.
Where's Jerry Stewart when I need him? :-)

Tim O'

I looked up the GATX 30xx and 31xx series in my 1960 edition of Tank Car
Capacities. Both groups had a nominal capacity of 8100 gallons and dome
capacity of 171-178 gallons. This matches GATX 4121 as seen on page 28 in
Ted Culotta's tank car book. That car had a 8125 gallon tank and a 172
gallon dome.

For most AC&F Type 27 8K tank cars, the"Official" nominal dome capacities,
when listed in editions of Tank Car Capacities, can be 254, 256 or 266
gallons, depending on when built.

When Ted auctioned his print of GATX 4121 on Ebay, he called it an AC&F
Type 27 and Ted states in his book that the smaller dome was an option on
these cars.

Early Type 27 8K tank cars had 4 straps.

So, early-built AC&F Type 27 8K tanks with the optional smaller dome is
what is seen in the photos (IMO).

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV


Re: CONX Tankcar ID?

Tim O'Connor
 

4121 has a 100,000 lb capacity -- Wouldn't that indicate a larger car?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121728464551

I think the design of the saddles are an important spotting feature.
Where's Jerry Stewart when I need him? :-)

Tim O'

I looked up the GATX 30xx and 31xx series in my 1960 edition of Tank Car Capacities. Both groups had a nominal capacity of 8100 gallons and dome capacity of 171-178 gallons. This matches GATX 4121 as seen on page 28 in Ted Culotta's tank car book. That car had a 8125 gallon tank and a 172 gallon dome.

For most AC&F Type 27 8K tank cars, the"Official" nominal dome capacities, when listed in editions of Tank Car Capacities, can be 254, 256 or 266 gallons, depending on when built.

When Ted auctioned his print of GATX 4121 on Ebay, he called it an AC&F Type 27 and Ted states in his book that the smaller dome was an option on these cars.

Early Type 27 8K tank cars had 4 straps.

So, early-built AC&F Type 27 8K tanks with the optional smaller dome is what is seen in the photos (IMO).

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV


Re: PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Marty,

Someplace long ago I found reference to barrels being delivered to Hawthorn (thanks for remembering the name), or replacement barrels being shipped from there. I think it was in reference to a battleship or cruiser, so those would have been big guns. Sorry, but I can't remember where I read this.

We sometimes forget that the same sort of big guns were used in fixed coastal emplacements like those at Forts Barry, Baker and Cronkite on the Marin peninsula. Many of these batteries are still intact, though of course long ago stripped of their ordinance.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 10/6/15 9:07 AM, mjmcguirk@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Garth, the facility in Nevada must be the former Naval Ammunition Depot, Hawthorne. Which since sometime in the 1980ss has been an Army base.

It was during WWII the largest facility of its kind in the world.

Ordnance,  and weapons, though (obviously!) very closely related are not the same thing in military parlance. In the Navy's pre-WWII organizational structure BuOrd and BuWeaps were two different entities - weapons - barrels and the like - were the bailiwick of BuWeaps and refurbished at the Washington Navy Yard, tested at Dahlgren, and then shipped to the shipyard for installation on the ships.

Weapons stations and depots are used either for long term storage and assembly of ordnance, or short term storage near naval bases.

Which brings up back to Hawthorne. It was a huge facility - employed more than 5,000 people in 1945. It was larger than the Weapons Depot at Crane, Indiana.

That said, I've never been able to find any reference to it being used to "store" naval rifles enroute to West Coast shipyards. I'm not saying it never happened, but it would have been the exception. The only time Hawthorne was used for large scale storage of naval rifles was immediately after WWII when the facility was used to store barrels from decommissioned or converted ships. Many of barrels were eventually sold for scrap. 

Out of curiosity I checked to see they had a shore-mount installation at Hawthorne for live-fire ammo tests. Can't find anything that confirms they did and until I do I assume they did not. 

Again, I wouldn't say they never had barrels shipped there from the East Coast for that purpose and/or "stored" there until it was shipped to the West Coast. But I can't find any proof of that.


Marty




Re: PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast

spsalso
 

A neat picture (and comments) of the Washington Gun Shop:


Naval Gun Factory D.C. - 1943 pic





Ed


Edward Sutorik 




Re: PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast

Jack Mullen
 

While it's true that no battleships were built on the West coast after the WW I era, there were several built earlier, from USS Oregon, BB-3, (launched 1893), Union Iron Works, San Francisco,  to USS California, BB-44, (launched 1919), Mare Island Navy Yard.

As far as I know, in addition to ordnance, much of the machinery and armor plate would have been produced in the East, generating quite a bit of potential traffic for early STMFC modelers.

Jack Mullen


Re: CONX Tankcar ID?

Dave Parker
 

Rufus:

The 1919 "tariff book" is free from Google books (search "circular no. 6-0, showing capacities of tank cars").  I have tried like heck to find the 1936 ("freight tariff 300-A") and later editions, but with no success (either digital or hard copy).

Maybe Ian Cranstone can comment.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast

Rod Miller
 

On 10/6/15 6:08 AM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@auburn.edu [STMFC] wrote:
Garth,
[snip]

There is a photograph of the Magor built Watervliet Arsenal #1, a 4 truck, 12 axle gun flat, unloading a gun for a coast artillery position in the San Francisco area on the Southern Pacific, I believe.


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 6, 2015, at 3:38 AM, Garth Groff sarahsan@embarqmail.com<mailto:sarahsan@embarqmail.com> [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Friends,

This discussion about the PRR gun flat on the MC&CL raised an
interesting question in my mind. Is there any record, or any photos,
that show PRR F22, F23, or F30 (yes Ben, no hyphens anymore) on the West
Coast?

The SP served a large Navy Base in Nevada (yes, Nevada) which stored or
refurbished large guns. So might these guns have been shipped there from
foundries on the East Coast on PRR flats? And what cars did the SP, or
perhaps the Navy themselves, use to move these guns to installation
points, likely Bremerton, San Francisco or Long Beach?

I just thumbed through Tony's SP flat car book and didn't see any photos
of guns being shipped, but it was a quick flip-through. There are lots
of hunkin' big loads, but no naval guns.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff
jjjjj
While hiking north of San Francisco in the Golden Gate
National Recreation Area, I ran across a 16" gun barrel
from one of the batteries that were installed during
WW II to protect the port of San Francisco. Google
turned up this page about the move of the barrel from
Hawthorne to the GGNRA:

http://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/new-gun-update.htm

Note there is a link to additional hi res photos.

Unfortunately no steam era freight cars are shown in the
photos.

--
Rod Miller
Handcraftsman
===
Custom 2-rail O Scale Models: Drives, | O Scale West / S West
Repairs, Steam Loco Building, More | 2016 Meet is May 5 - 7
http://www.rodmiller.com | http://www.oscalewest.com


Re: CONX Tankcar ID?

Rufus Cone
 

The image of GATX 4121 reads

ARA III
AC&F
7-26

Anyone know of STMFC-era (say 1950-ish) copies or downloadable editions of Tank Car Capacities?

--
Rufus Cone
Bozeman, MT

I looked up the GATX 30xx and 31xx series in my 1960 edition of Tank Car Capacities. Both groups had a nominal capacity of 8100 gallons and dome capacity of 171-178 gallons. This matches GATX 4121 as seen on page 28 in Ted Culotta's tank car book. That car had a 8125 gallon tank and a 172 gallon dome.

For most AC&F Type 27 8K tank cars, the"Official" nominal dome capacities, when listed in editions of Tank Car Capacities, can be 254, 256 or 266 gallons, depending on when built.

When Ted auctioned his print of GATX 4121 on Ebay, he called it an AC&F Type 27 and Ted states in his book that the smaller dome was an option on these cars.

Early Type 27 8K tank cars had 4 straps.

So, early-built AC&F Type 27 8K tanks with the optional smaller dome is what is seen in the photos (IMO).

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV


Re: PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast

Benjamin Hom
 

Brad Andonian wrote:
"Barrels were created at Washington Navy and sent either to Bremerton, Brooklyn or Philly for regunning the turrets. The Kearsage [a WWI era battleship] was often used. Due to the importance of the Kearsage, it did not leave US waters of the US west coast during WWII."

Some clarification here.  Commissioned in 1900, well before the Great War, USS Kearsarge (BB 5) was made obsolete by the commissioning of HMS Dreadnought in 1906 and was of marginal military value by time of the US entry into the war in 1917.  In 1920, her armament, armor, and superstructure were removed and she was fitted with large bulges to improve stability, and a 250-ton heavy lift crane.  She was renamed Crane Ship No. 1 in 1941 to free her name for an Essex-class carrier.

Photos of Kearsarge after her conversion, including three showing re-gunning of USS Idaho (BB 48):
 
 
Ben Hom
 


Re: PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast

Tony Thompson
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

There is a photograph of the Magor built Watervliet Arsenal #1, a 4 truck, 12 axle gun flat, unloading a gun for a coast artillery position in the San Francisco area on the Southern Pacific, I believe.


    Reproduced in my Coast Line Pictorial book, page 55. I agree with the identification of the Magor flat, also shown in Kaminski's Magor book.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast

Tony Thompson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

I just thumbed through Tony's SP flat car book and didn't see any photos
of guns being shipped, but it was a quick flip-through. There are lots
of hunkin' big loads, but no naval guns.


      See my "Coast Line Pictorial," page 55, for such a load. But it's not on an F22. I have a Richard Hendrickson model of an F22, carrying a transformer.


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast

Brad Andonian
 

Gentlemen,

I have done some research on this topic a couple years back.    Specifically I was seeking info on the Puget Sound Naval Base at Bremerton, WA.    This was THE West Coast location for regunning battleships.     The MILW had about 10 heavy flats similar to the PRR F22; they were car floated to the Bremerton Base out of Seattle [current location of Terminal 5].

Based on info from the Historical Society and others here is what I found out:

Barrels were created at Washington Navy and sent either to Bremerton, Brooklyn or Philly for regunning the turrets.     The Kearsage [a WWI era battleship] was often used.    Due to the importance of the Kearsage, it did not leave US waters of the US west coast during WWII.  Barrels were replaced every 70-100 rounds fired!

At Bremerton, old barrels were pulled and shipped to Idaho.    At the Idaho base, they were relined and test fired then sent back to Bremerton.
East Coast barrels were relined at Washington Navy Yard and sent to Brooklyn or Philly for regunning.

Hope this helps and is of interest,
Brad Andonian
Seattle

46441 - 46460 of 184234