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Re: Livestock through Chicago
devansprr
Doug,
Very interesting data. Do they include the total tons, or head, for each livestock category by year? The ICC reports suggest rail livestock moves did not drop as significantly as this data suggests during the 30's. Did the overall meat industry increase so much that even though trucking was taking over a majority of the market, total rail shipments did not drop as drastically? Thanks, Dave Evans
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Re: Livestock through Chicago
devansprr
Tim,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Lighten up. Your post mentioned that animal products were much more than livestock, so I provided additional data to show a breakdown in animal products between livestock and other shipments. Thought that might be interesting to others. The possible ratio of stock cars to meat reefers might be interesting to eastern STMFC modelers. It surprised me because I have mistakenly fallen into the photo analysis trap - I see a LOT more stock cars in photos of PRR freight trains than I do meat reefers... Specific to the IT RR, per the 1941 annual ICC Steam RR report I have, in 1941 the IT only originated 52 tons of cattle, which also terminated on the IT. I wasn't questioning your post - I am wondering what happened? Did something drastic change in Illinois, and specific to the IT, between the date of your data, and the 1941 ICC report I have? Or did the two data reports use different data sources or categorization methods? The ICC reports I have include lots of "N.O.S." categories, which I think means Not Otherwise Specified. Inquiring minds want to know - don't take it personal. Actually I did indicate a drop in traffic from the late 20's into the 30's, but it recovered during WWII, likely in part due to the reduced use of trucks in long distance commerce during the war - and I noted even in 1945 that there was a drop as the war ended. In many ways that supports the premise that trucks were taking business from the railroads before the war, but it may not have been, on a national basis, that significant - yet. Illinois may have been different since a significant part of the state is not that far of a drive from Chicago. As for car loadings, the ICC report also includes tons per carload, and in this area, you and others might find some surprises: Horses, Mules, ponies and asses - 11.8 tons/car, 10,887 US originated car loads Cattle and calves, single deck - 11.3, 305,555 Calves, double deck - 12.6, 6, 830 Sheep and goats, single deck - 6.8, 20,691 Sheep and goats, double deck - 10.1, 80, 052 Hogs, single deck - 8.0, 68, 701 Hogs, double deck - 12.8, 117,358 Fresh meats, N.O.S. - 12.7, 268,042 Meats, cured, dried or smoked - 18.7, 41,607 Butterine and Margerine - 13.7, 2,046 Packing house products, edible, N.O.S. not including canned meats - 18.7, 48,320 Poultry, live - 8.5, 2,068 Poultry, dressed - 12.2, 21,795 Eggs - 11.4, 34,310 Butter - 12.6, 38,829 Cheese - 14.7, 20,066 Wool - 15.0, 36,872 Hides, green - 24.4, 34,960 Leather - 19.2, 9,201 Fish or sea-animal oil - 27.7, 7,792 Animals, Live, N.O.S. - 12.84, 149 Animal Products, N.O.S. - 24.13, 74,274 Looks like tons per stock car and tons per reefer may not have been that different. DaVe Evans ---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote : Dale, if you're going to deliberately misunderstand what I wrote, there's no point in continuing. Or perhaps you really don't understand what ORIGINATE means. Elsewhere in the document I have are numbers on (1) originate and terminate on line (2) originate off line and terminate on line (3) origin on line and terminate off line (4) and originate and terminate off line (i.e. bridge traffic). Livestock car loads were very light -- similar to LCL loads. I remember a PRR document I examined once that showed the number was around 12-15 tons per carload. As a result, tonnage can't be directly compared to carloads for many different kinds of cargo. The numbers I gave were for tons only. In any case, your original post said there was no data that showed a decline in animal traffic during the 1930's. I provided that data for you. Tim O'Connor
The 1941-1945 ICC steam RR annual reports break "animals and products" into 22 categories.
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Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
water.kresse@...
The C&O's pre-WW2 "covered hopper cars" are the 1937 and newer 1937 & 1945 C&O Freight Cars books. Cars were converted HMR 1932-1937 and new LO 1937-1938.
Al Kresse
From: "Rufus Cone rclist09@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:02:31 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers? In the NPRHA's The Mainstreeter, Vol 8 No. 4, Fall 1989, I with Matt Herson covered the "Acquisition of Covered Hoppers" by the NP, using primary sources from the NPR corporate records at the Minnesota Historical Society. This covers only two-bay covered hoppers.
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Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
water.kresse@...
The C&O used "roofed-hopper cars" . . . covered regular hopper cars, sometimes with new steeper slope-sheets and hopper-door-bays.
Al Kresse
From: "amwing1588@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 6:29:47 PM Subject: [STMFC] Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers? Hi all, John Miller Folsom, CA.
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Re: Blobs.
boomer44@...
My remedy for the "blobs' is to heat the spray can in a shallow tub of warm water. Then before I spray... a whole lota shakin goin on... :)
Gordon Spalty
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Re: Standard Tank Car Frame Dimensions
Rufus Cone
All About Tank Cars published by Standard Car Construction Company,
1919, can be viewed here.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nnc1.cu55808360;view=1up;seq=7 Downloads of more than one page at a time require an academic subscription to HathiTrust. I purchased a used copy of the book for $23.00. In addition to the one 3 view drawing, it contains varied information relevant to shippers including an extensive section on Master Car Builder Rules; the MCB section includes a few detail drawings, specifications of rivets, etc. Here are some key measurements from the text and the legends on the fold-out drawing. The drawing in the book is presumably reasonably to scale but is not dimensioned; it is not scanned in the online pdf. From pages 329-332 of the book Type A Center Anchorage Tank Car GENERAL DIMENSIONS: Length over striking plate about 31 feet 10 inches. Width, over running boards 9 feet 3 1/4 inches. Height from top of rail to center of draw bars, 2 feet 10 1/2 inches Height from top of rail to top of center sill girders, about 3 feet 8 inches. Height .from top of rail to bearing surface pf center plate, about 2 feet 1 inch. Center to center of trucks, about 21 feet. UNDERFRAME: Center sill girder built of two 15 in by 40 pound OHS channels 31 feet 6 inches long. Reinforced with top and bottom cover plates of OHS , 3/8 inch thick by 20 inches wide … RUNNING BOARDS: 1 3/4 inches by 11 1/2 inches HAND RAILS 1 1/4 inch pipe fastened with 2 inch by 3/8 inch brackets GRAB IRONS 5/8 inch round, 16 inches by 2 1/2 inches in the clear FROM THE LEGENDS ON THE FOLD-OUT DRAWING (14 inches x 21 inches, covering 3 sizes/capacities of tank cars, found between page 336 & 337 of the book) – drawing not scanned in the online pdf RUNNING BOARDS for the 10,000 Gal car are 35 feet 5 inches long END RUNNING BOARDS 7 feet 4 inches (appears to fit between longer ones above) Rufus Cone Bozeman, MT
Colin
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Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
Rufus Cone
In the NPRHA's The Mainstreeter, Vol 8 No. 4, Fall 1989, I with Matt
Herson covered the "Acquisition of Covered Hoppers" by the NP, using
primary sources from the NPR corporate records at the Minnesota
Historical Society. This covers only two-bay covered hoppers.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
By May 1940, NP had leased 30 1958 CuFt covered hoppers from General American Car Co., stated in correspondence to be copies of ACF Plan 6147192-B 70 ton cars. Arsenic, from smelters in Tacoma and Butte, was a commodity for which they anticipated the cars to be used in addition to cement. Covered hoppers owned by URT were already in service between Billings and Chicago handling sugar for Mars, Inc, and much later NP acquired Airslide cars for that type of service. Early operations of those cars are described. For those who may be interested, deliberations started in 1934 with the Western Association of Railway Executives (WARE), with member roads CB&Q, C&NW, CGW, MSP&P (MILW), Rock Island, GN, M&StL, MStP&SStM, NP, and UP. Details are provided on the varied thinking and interactions. Scanned copies are sold in the NPRHA Company Store http://www1.storehost.com/stores/xq/xfm/store_id.615/page_id.23/Item_ID.50351/parent_ids.0,0,4/qx/store.htm Rufus Cone Bozeman, MT
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Re: USING FUTURE FLOOR WAX
I sprayed Future over Poly Scale flat and decalled the next day only to reduce the milky change in the gloss after using Micro-Set and Sol. The decals were printed by Rail Graphics. The milky look went away just as white glue will go clear. I have successfully used Model Masters Flat for my overspray. You can speed up the drying time by using a hair dryer but be very careful with resin models as too much heat will turn the casting into Silly Putty. I was able to rescue the F&C war emergency hopper and straighten it out with my fingers. I have been using Future for over 30 years. I wouldn’t use Dullcoat over it as it is not a waterbase or acrylic formula and could cause crazing or discoloring. If you don’t have an airbrush you could try Krylon Flat finish as the pastel and charcoal artists do. Krylon Workable Fixative will render a semi Gloss finish. Sincerely, Rob Manley Midwest Mod-U-Trak "Better modeling through personal embarassment"
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:00 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: USING FUTURE FLOOR WAX
I have been meaning to try Future, have some, and have a couple of cars to decal. How long after spraying Future on the car should one wait for it to dry or cure or whatever it does? An hour? Day? Week?
Schuyler
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Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
charles slater
The Santa Fe only had 10 in service before the war, the Ga-45 class built in 1936 by AC&F. Charlie Slater To: STMFC@... From: STMFC@... Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:20:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [STMFC] Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers? The M&StL (west of the Mississippi) purchased 10 covered hoppers in 1940. They were used for cement service. Next order for covered hoppers was placed in 1947 for 50 cars.
Doug Harding
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Re: Livestock through Chicago
Here are some numbers related to livestock “drive-ins”, which is what the USDA called any livestock arriving by truck or hoof. As you can see the numbers increased as trucks took over and rail service declined. You also need to remember that the 28 hr law did not apply to trucks until well after railroads stopped transporting livestock, ie well after 1960. Another reason farmers went to trucks so quickly, they did not have to feed and rest animals being transported in trucks.
Note hogs went to trucks early. One reason many hogs were raised within 100 miles of where they were slaughtered, ie the mid-west, esp after meat packers began building plants outside of Chicago. A farmer with a truck could get his hogs to the slaughter house all most as fast as he could get them to the railroad stockpens.
In contrast sheep/lambs stayed with rail transportation because most sheep were raised long distances away from slaughter houses.
It is also very interesting to look at the numbers for the 17 markets around the country and the great contrast between truck and rail
Percent drive-ins of total receipts seventeen markets Year Cattle/Calves Hogs Sheep/Lambs 1916 1.7% 1.8% 1.3% 1921 3.7% 7.8% 4.1% 1928 13.6% 18.2% 10.8% 1929 17.5% 29.7% 12.8% 1930 22.9% 35.6% 14.0% 1931 29.9% 44.5% 17.1% 1932 39.3% 54.6% 21.6% 1933 49.2% 61.6% 25.2% 1936 59.1% 70.7% 30.6% 1941 70.6% 75.8% 37.9% 1944 63.3% 70.8% 35.6% 1946 64.1% 67.3% 41.0%
Source: U.S.D.A., F.D.A. Driven-In Receipts of Livestock, 1943-1946
Drive-in Receipts of Livestock at 67 public markets Year 1946 1945 Cattle 57.2% 58.1% Calves 62.3% 65.0% Hogs 60.7% 60.3% Sheep/Lambs 35.9% 34.3%
Percent of Livestock Drive-ins at 17 public markets in 1946 Market Cattle Calves Hogs Sheep/Lambs Chicago, Ill 59% 55% 44% 25% Cincinnati, Ind 32% 51% 66% 48% Denver, Colo 43% 45% 36% 16% Ft Worth, Tex 79% 83% 52% 75% Indianapolis 82% 79% 94% 89% Kansas City 39% 44% 54% 17% Louisville, Ky 63% 63% 86% 74% Milwaukee 55% 77% 56% 59% Okla City, Ok 97% 96% 53% 28% Omaha, Neb 77% 49% 69% 21% Portland, Ore 38% 66% 12% 33% St. Joseph, Mo 73% 82% 73% 41% St. Louis (East) 49% 56% 67% 46% Sioux City, Ia 75% 26% 90% 53% Sioux Falls, SD 97% 95% 99% 90% S St Paul, Minn 66% 89% 83% 50% Wichita, Kan 71% 74% 68% 71% TOTAL 63% 68% 67% 41%
Doug Harding
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Re: Livestock through Chicago
Dale, if you're going to deliberately misunderstand what I wrote, there's no point in continuing. Or perhaps you really don't understand what ORIGINATE means. Elsewhere in the document I have are numbers on (1) originate and terminate on line (2) originate off line and terminate on line (3) origin on line and terminate off line (4) and originate and terminate off line (i.e. bridge traffic). Livestock car loads were very light -- similar to LCL loads. I remember a PRR document I examined once that showed the number was around 12-15 tons per carload. As a result, tonnage can't be directly compared to carloads for many different kinds of cargo. The numbers I gave were for tons only. In any case, your original post said there was no data that showed a decline in animal traffic during the 1930's. I provided that data for you. Tim O'Connor
The 1941-1945 ICC steam RR annual reports break "animals and products" into 22 categories.
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Re: USING FUTURE FLOOR WAX
Just follow the directions on the bottle ! If you put it on your kitchen floor you certainly want to know how long to wait before you can walk on it!
At 10/14/2015 10:00 PM Wednesday, you wrote:
I have been meaning to try Future, have some, and have a couple of cars to decal.� How long after spraying Future on the car should one wait for it to dry or cure or whatever it does?� An hour?� Day?� Week?
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Re: Livestock through Chicago
devansprr
Ray,
I will be interested to see what you find - I wonder if data for Pennsylvania might be available. It would also be interesting to see what meat consumption was during the great depression - I think it might have dropped significantly on a per capita basis - my parents recall a very different food situation during the 30's. The dust bowl also occurred during the 30's, although I am not sure how much impact it had on ranchers. As for STMFC carloads, I had not researched this before, but after finding that the PRR only handled 1.3 livestock carloads for every meat reefer carload, I suspect my WWII mainline traffic fleet ratio of stock cars to meat reefers is WAY off. Looks like I need more meat reefers and fewer stock cars.... If only we could find more wheel reports.... Dave Evans ---In STMFC@..., <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote : Hi Dave, The ICC may have only been looking at rail shipments, while the USDA was looking at all animals and how they were shipped. I'll have to dig through my piles of PDFs to find the specific source for my material (and a link back to Google Books). More later! Regardless, the ICC traffic statistics DO show a general decrease in overall animal tonnage, to the point that it took WWII to bring it back up to a level last seen in 1920. The country's population was still growing and meat consumption really didn't decrease during the 1930s; with those two data points as a given the animals had to be moving to market somehow. (as a point of reference, that Drover's Journal I mentioned earlier states that in 1901, 3906 hogs came into the Chicago yards by truck/wagon/foot, but by 1911 the numbers had increased to 353,845 hogs into the yards "other than by rail". That's sort of an important jump) Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
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Re: Livestock through Chicago
devansprr
Tim,
The 1941-1945 ICC steam RR annual reports break "animals and products" into 22 categories. While livestock movements are only a portion of that category, it is interesting to see the relative proportion of Livestock freight movements compared to the overall "animal and products" category. In 1941, for the US overall, horses, cattle, sheep, goats and hogs were: 610,074 car loadings, representing 49% of all "animals and products" car loadings 6.7M tons, representing 40% of "animal and products" tonnage $55M in freight revenue, representing 30% of all "Animal and products" revenue. While the tonnage for "fresh meats, N.O.S." was only 1/2 of livestock tonnage, the revenue was $52M, only about 6% less than livestock revenue. Perhaps an interesting number for modeling purposes is that, nationally, 2.3 stock cars were loaded with livestock for every "fresh meats" car loadings, which one would presume were meat reefers. Specific to some railroads: The PRR handled 1.3 stock cars with livestock for each car load of "fresh meats", which one would assume to be meat reefers. For the ATSF, this carload ratio was 9.5 to 1. For the NYCentral, the ratio was 0.79 to 1. For many of the mid-size and smaller eastern roads, "fresh meats" outnumbered livestock moves by significant amounts - ratios of 5 to 10 to 1 or even higher the further east the road. According to the ICC report, in 1941 the Illinois Terminal RR only handled 15 car loads of livestock and one car of "Fresh meats", while the CB&Q handled 67,207 carloads of livestock, and 22,474 carloads of fresh meat. Not sure the percentage changes within Illinois tell the full story.... Perhaps the Illinois report counted cars moved in interchange by a terminal RR differently than the ICC did? Dave Evans ---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote : "Animal products" is a huge category -- from hides, bone meal, tallow, whole animal carcasses, milk, butter, cheese to processed meats, etc -- A total of 183 cargo categories according to the July 12, 1941 "Report on the Alton Railroad Company". Total Originating in Illinois (on 12 major railroads) -- 1928-1920 inclusive: 4,098,376 tons 1937-1939 inclusive: 2,225,570 tons -- average decline 46% The largest percentage declines are shown for several railroads that did a great deal of business in Illinois: ALTON 68% CB&Q 58% WABASH 61%. A lesser decline is shown for IC - 37% - which by 1939 was originating more "animal products" in Illinois than any other railroad. The CB&Q had been the leader in the 1928-1930 period. Only one railroad shows an increase in originated tons: Illinois Terminal. Tim O'Connor
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Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
Dave Parker
Just to add to what Ray wrote: I can't find these HCCX cement cars in my 1930 ORER, but I have seen the pix, and the build date is indeed 12-28. They do, however, appear in my 1935 edition: 50 cars, numbered 1001 to 1050. Interestingly, they appear to be running on Andrews trucks (presumably 70 ton). Within my limited knowledge, these would appear to be some of the very earliest covered hoppers in the U.S. Dave Parker Riverside, CA
On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:14 PM, "Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC]" wrote: The DL&W photo collection at Steamtown has a fascinating collection of six photos (X7126-X7132) showing HCCX/Hercules Portland Cement covered hoppers on a barge in Hoboken, taken on 4/1/1930. Zooming in on a few of these cars shows them to be 70 ton, four discharge bay cars, with a new date of 12/1928.The number series is at least HCCX 1002-1028 (my 1930 ORER is buried right now so I can't confirm the full series). Sadly, the cars "seem" to have a reweigh station on the L&NE, so it's doubtful that they made it west of the Mississippi. Still, it's fun to see covered hoppers that old, and with stemwinders! Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
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Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
Ed Hawkins
On Oct 14, 2015, at 5:29 PM, amwing1588@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote: Does anyone know if Covered Hoppers were used prior to WWII (Late 30's to early 40's) that may have found they're way West of the Mississippi? I've looked on the Funaro-Camerlengo site, which lists a few specific carriers in the date range I'm interested in, but I'm not sure how accurate that information is. Did any Western Roads have them or at least had common interchange services that would have use them? Lastly, is there a good reference that covers the design type, loads carried and which roads used them the most. I'm setting up a late depression / Pre--WWII era roster and would like to include some Covered Hoppers...if prototypical. John, Volumes 27, 28, & 30 of Railway Prototype Cyclopedia devote 250 pages mainly to purpose-built ACF-design 1,958 cu. ft. covered hopper cars. Some were built before World War II not only by ACF but several other builders. As part of the introduction to the ACF design in Vol. 27, also discussed are some early conversions of HM hopper cars into covered hoppers. A number of railroads having significant trackage west of the Mississippi River purchased cars of this type before the early 1940s. In addition to those already mentioned (ATSF, M&StL, UP) are CB&Q, GN, IC, KCS. MILW, MP, NP, RI, & Wabash. A few others likely found their way west of the Mississippi River that include private owner ILDX (General Electric) and SHPX cars leased to Aluminum Ore Co. Volumes 27 and 28 are sold out at the publisher while Vol. 30 was released just 3 weeks ago. Some book or hobby dealers might have remaining stock of 27 and 28. Regards, Ed Hawkins
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Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
North Model Railroad Supplies <nmrs@...>
Carbon Black covered hoppers were first built around 1933 and travelled from carbon black plants to various industries involved in tyre production and printing supplies. I believe a tyre manufacturing plant in Denver received cars but I don’t know if it was pre or post WW2. Perhaps other list members have more info on the various destinations of these cars, beyond the tyre manufacturers in Ohio. Cheers Dave North
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Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
Ray Breyer
The DL&W photo collection at Steamtown has a fascinating collection of six photos (X7126-X7132) showing HCCX/Hercules Portland Cement covered hoppers on a barge in Hoboken, taken on 4/1/1930. Zooming in on a few of these cars shows them to be 70 ton, four discharge bay cars, with a new date of 12/1928.The number series is at least HCCX 1002-1028 (my 1930 ORER is buried right now so I can't confirm the full series). Sadly, the cars "seem" to have a reweigh station on the L&NE, so it's doubtful that they made it west of the Mississippi. Still, it's fun to see covered hoppers that old, and with stemwinders! Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
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Re: Livestock through Chicago
Ray Breyer
Hi Dave, The ICC may have only been looking at rail shipments, while the USDA was looking at all animals and how they were shipped. I'll have to dig through my piles of PDFs to find the specific source for my material (and a link back to Google Books). More later! Regardless, the ICC traffic statistics DO show a general decrease in overall animal tonnage, to the point that it took WWII to bring it back up to a level last seen in 1920. The country's population was still growing and meat consumption really didn't decrease during the 1930s; with those two data points as a given the animals had to be moving to market somehow. (as a point of reference, that Drover's Journal I mentioned earlier states that in 1901, 3906 hogs came into the Chicago yards by truck/wagon/foot, but by 1911 the numbers had increased to 353,845 hogs into the yards "other than by rail". That's sort of an important jump) Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
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Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
golden1014
Hi John,
They most certainly would be prototypical. I'm also interested in early covered hoppers because they come in a fascinating variety of stylesunlike hte later 1958 cuft cars and later PS cars which all looked the same. I have collected a small file of photos at work of B&O, NYC, PRR and other early covered hoppers and I'd be happy to share the photos with you. E-mail me offline at Golden1014 at Yahoo.com. I just ran across a photo of a NKP car, rebuilt from a USRA hopper, that I'm dying to model next in HO. RCW makes decals so it should be easy using a Tichy car to start with. I recently finished kitbashing an HO model of a C&O car (300-series) which was easy to rebuild using the Intermountain car. I'm sure these cars generally saw captive service on their home railroads but we could justify one showing up from time to time. John Golden O'Fallon, IL
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