Date   

Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?

RICH CHAPIN
 

The Lehigh Valley May 1932 ORER lists 30 hoppers (#s50000 to 50029) as “Special Type, Steel Hatchway Roof, Hop. Bot.”  with LO designation.

The series shows up in July 1931 ORER as “Cement,  Steel, Hopper Bottom” as #50000 thru 50017, but have no designation.

 

Rich Chapin

 


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tony Thompson
 

True, but I've always wondered if the PRR didn't just get stuck with the bill
because so much of the perishables TERMINATED on the PRR after relatively short
hauls. After all if the produce deep inside the car rotted on the Santa Fe, how
would anyone know until the car was being unloaded in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia?

Were damage claims to perishables pro-rated based on "hours of control" ? If it
took Santa Fe 110 hours to get to Chicago, and PRR took 50 hours to forward that
to New York, it is fair to blame PRR for all of the damage?


    I take your point, Tim, but Erie from Chicago to New York had far smaller claims; B&O to its eastern cities had distinctly lower claims than PRR. If it was just a question of "who delivered it," they should have had just as much complaint as the PRR. My own guess would be that claims were pro-rated by mileage handled. Does anyone know for sure?

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?

WILLIAM PARDIE
 


I have on my roster an ERIE covered hop;per that predatges WWII.  This is a samaller car and
is the same car that Gene Diemling did in MR back in tghe 70's.  This thread reminded me that
I have never upgraded the rtrucks on this car.  Doen anyone know what Tahoe Models truck
is correct for this car?

Thanks in advance:

Bill Pardie

On Oct 14, 2015, at 5:14 PM, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

The DL&W photo collection at Steamtown has a fascinating collection of six photos (X7126-X7132) showing HCCX/Hercules Portland Cement covered hoppers on a barge in Hoboken, taken on 4/1/1930. Zooming in on a few of these cars shows them to be 70 ton, four discharge bay cars, with a new date of 12/1928.The number series is at least HCCX 1002-1028 (my 1930 ORER is buried right now so I can't confirm the full series). Sadly, the cars "seem" to have a reweigh station on the L&NE, so it's doubtful that they made it west of the Mississippi. Still, it's fun to see covered hoppers that old, and with stemwinders!
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "golden1014@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:58 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?



Hi John,

They most certainly would be prototypical.  I'm also interested in early covered hoppers because they come in a fascinating variety of stylesunlike hte later 1958 cuft cars and later PS cars which all looked the same.  I have collected a small file of photos at work of B&O, NYC, PRR and other early covered hoppers and I'd be happy to share the photos with you.  E-mail me offline at Golden1014 at Yahoo.com.

I just ran across a photo of a NKP car, rebuilt from a USRA hopper, that I'm dying to model next in HO.   RCW makes decals so it should be easy using a Tichy car to start with.  I recently finished kitbashing an HO model of a C&O car (300-series) which was easy to rebuild using the Intermountain car.

I'm sure these cars generally saw captive service on their home railroads but we could justify one showing up from time to time.  

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL







Re: Livestock through Chicago

np328
 

Well if that is true Tim, then the drovers or whomever was assigned to watch these livestock were not doing their job.  The railroads could contest the claims and ask for an investigation also.   Jim Dick  -  St. Paul, MN                                                      


Re: GATX Production List

mark_landgraf
 

Dave,

A whole bunch of 1940-1944 tank car pieces and parts. Not too interesting.  But with production list I could at least start to figure out whose cars they were used on.

Mark Landgraf


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tim O'Connor
 


True, but I've always wondered if the PRR didn't just get stuck with the bill
because so much of the perishables TERMINATED on the PRR after relatively short
hauls. After all if the produce deep inside the car rotted on the Santa Fe, how
would anyone know until the car was being unloaded in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia?

Were damage claims to perishables pro-rated based on "hours of control" ? If it
took Santa Fe 110 hours to get to Chicago, and PRR took 50 hours to forward that
to New York, it is fair to blame PRR for all of the damage?

Tim O'Connor


 > PFE people I interviewed told me that the PRR had the highest perishable claims,
 > per ton-mile, of ANY American railroad. Needless to say, this was hardly a secret
 > among shippers.
 > Tony Thompson 


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tim O'Connor
 

Indeed the construction continued through World War II. There is a huge
collection of photos on Facebook of the 1942 construction (over railroad
yards and several mainlines) of a huge new bridge over the Mississippi River
between East Dubuque IL and Dubuque IA -- a major meatpacking town! The
enormous girders are labeled Bethlehem Steel -- I'd love to see how they
transported them. Possibly by barge down the Ohio and up the Mississippi,
as they seem far too large for rail cars. The collection has some nice
shots of freight trains.

Tim O'Connor

As for Illinois itself, with large brokerage stockyards at St. Louis, Peoria, Chicago, and nearby Milwaukee and Indianapolis, there were options everywhere for farmers to move their stock themselves, cutting out several layers of middlemen. With the Good Roads Movement having its start in Illinois and perfect topography for easy paving, the transition to motor vehicles here was blazingly fast.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tim O'Connor
 

Cattle and calves, single deck - 11.3, 305,555
> Packing house products, edible, N.O.S. not including canned meats - 18.7, 48,320
> Looks like tons per stock car and tons per reefer may not have been that different.
> Dave Evans

Interesting. When I was in school 18.7 compared to 11.3 showed that 18.7 was 65.3%
larger. But then I never understood the new math.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tim O'Connor
 

Dave

The ITC was a small railroad -- the Law of Large Numbers applies. A small
road can experience a 100% increase from 1 carload to 2 carloads. So yes I'm
sure there was some local phenomenom (I think ITC was near Decatur yes?) that
caused the increase for them. All of the other roads were far larger than the
ITC -- even the TP&W had far more traffic.

Tim O'

I wasn't questioning your post - I am wondering what happened? Did something drastic change in Illinois, and specific to the IT, between the date of your data, and the 1941 ICC report I have?

DaVe Evans


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Dave Nelson
 

A number of volumes are held by the UC system here in California. I have a
daughter in the UC system right now and have asked her to request some .pdf
copies for me. It'll be a while before she's home again (I want to be part
of the selecting process -- I want 1944, 1950, and 1956); If allowed, Ill
post them to the files section (the "authors" went out of business before
copyright renewal was due and so it is highly probable they're in the public
domain: works published between 1923 and 1963 that were copyrighted but not
renewed are in the public domain per
https://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm).

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 11:13 AM

There's been a lot of talk about livestock traffic in and out of Chicago,
but no hard numbers to back up anyone's claims and SWAGs. Let's fix that:

https://books.google.com/books?id=2F00AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA3&dq=chicago+union+stock
yard&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCQQ6AEwADhQahUKEwjLuYnQ4b_IAhVCFh4KHbnyB7c#v=onepage&q
&f=false

Both UW Madison and Cornell seem to have a full collection of these books
through the 1960s, but sadly only two are fully available online. Here's
1921:
https://books.google.com/books?id=6rk9AQAAMAAJ&dq=chicago+union+stockyard&so
urce=gbs_book_similarbooks
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Re: Modeling the X29 and 1924 ARA cars

hayden_tom@...
 

OK, that helps, Bill. Now I see how the 1923 and 1924 versions compare. And I think I see, from Ben's posted drawings how the 1924 compares to 1928.

But can someone explain the terms "inside" and "outside". Obviously at every seam one panel overlaps the other, so there is an inside and an outside, and it's not a matter of left or right overlap, because they are mirror images left and right of the door.  So just what is it that is "inside" on the 1924 car sides and "outside" on the 1928


Tom Hayden


Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?

Aley, Jeff A
 

Tony remembered the UP cars very accurately.  There were 100 cars in class CH-70-1 built by GATC in 1940.  These may be modeled in HO with the Intermountain 1,958 cu-ft LO.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 4:10 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?

 

 

Does anyone know if Covered Hoppers were used prior to WWII (Late 30's to early 40's) that may have found they're way West of the Mississippi? I've looked on the Funaro-Camerlengo site, which lists a few specific carriers in the date range I'm interested in, but I'm not sure how accurate that information is. Did any Western Roads have them or at least had common interchange services that would have use them? Lastly, is there a good reference that covers the design type, loads carried and which roads used them the most. I'm setting up a late depression / Pre--WWII era roster and would like to include some Covered Hoppers...if prototypical.

 

       Santa Fe had some before the war, all in cement service as far as I know. UP also bought some close to 1940, don't have the date at hand, and likewise for cement.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 

 


Re: GATX Production List

Dave Nelson
 

What kinds of drawings are you scanning?

 

Dave Nelson

 

 

Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 8:22 AM
Subject: [STMFC] GATX Production List

 

Hi, I am currently dealing with scanning a bunch of GATX drawings. It would be helpful to have a production list. Does anyone have such a list? A scanned list would be fine too

 

Thanks

Mark_Landgraf at yahoo dot com

Albany NY

 


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Evans wrote:

 

Lighten up. Your post mentioned that animal products were much more than livestock, so I provided additional data to show a breakdown in animal products between livestock and other shipments. Thought that might be interesting to others. The possible ratio of stock cars to meat reefers might be interesting to eastern STMFC modelers. It surprised me because I have mistakenly fallen into the photo analysis trap - I see a LOT more stock cars in photos of PRR freight trains than I do meat reefers... 


     Maybe because many shippers using reefers avoided the PRR as much as possible, using instead the Erie, NKP and to some extent B&O. And NYC was nearly as bad as PRR for perishable service. Some on this list have seen me write this before: PFE people I interviewed told me that the PRR had the highest perishable claims, per ton-mile, of ANY American railroad. Needless to say, this was hardly a secret among shippers.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Livestock through Chicago

Ray Breyer
 

Hi Dave,

Based on what Doug Harding posted, I don't think that I will have to dig on my own! The data clearly shows that while the tonnage might not have dropped all that much overall, the percentage of overall tonnage carried by railroads certainly DID, and that 1936 was the tipping point. From that point on, with the statistical anomaly of WWII, the railroads were fighting a losing battle trying to win stock traffic. And keep that date in mind: 1936 was during the "recession within the Depression", before interstate highways, and before very large semis. All of that traffic was being lost by railroads to small box trucks, on two lane roads, during a time when "common wisdom" would tell us that meat consumption would be low.

As for Illinois itself, with large brokerage stockyards at St. Louis, Peoria, Chicago, and nearby Milwaukee and Indianapolis, there were options everywhere for farmers to move their stock themselves, cutting out several layers of middlemen. With the Good Roads Movement having its start in Illinois and perfect topography for easy paving, the transition to motor vehicles here was blazingly fast.

(I have a series of IC company photos showing the construction of their Mattoon depot. In 1914 when construction began there are zero cars or trucks, and plenty of horses around. By 1918 when construction was completed the situation was completely reversed: lots of cars, and no evidence of horses at all; not even road apples. The streets themselves went from dirt and cobblestones to cement)


Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 10/14/15, devans1@erols.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Livestock through Chicago
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2015, 11:28 PM


Ray,

I will be interested
to see what you find - I wonder if data for Pennsylvania
might be available.

It
would also be interesting to see what meat consumption was
during the great depression - I think it might have dropped
significantly on a per capita basis - my parents recall a
very different food situation during the 30's. The dust
bowl also occurred during the 30's, although I am not
sure how much impact it had on ranchers.

As for STMFC carloads, I had not researched
this before, but after finding that the PRR only handled 1.3
livestock carloads for every meat reefer carload, I suspect
my WWII mainline traffic fleet ratio of stock cars to meat
reefers is WAY off. Looks like I need more meat reefers and
fewer stock cars....

If
only we could find more wheel reports....

Dave Evans


Re: Modeling the X29 and 1924 ARA cars

Bill Welch
 

With the help of my friend John King (and a 2x4) I am now clear about the differences between Red Caboose kits #7002 and 7003 and I have included John's photos of each in B&W and color to help anyone understand the differences in end panels. Regarding Jim's comment also included are photos of the two different underframes.

Bill Welch


Resin Car Works Modeling Blog

Bill Welch
 

Following the alert that there is a new post on the relatively new modeling blog, I want to remind folks that Eric Hansmann and Frank Hodina have issued an invitation for submissions to the Resin Car Works Modeling Blog: Submitting a Blog Post

As someone who is doing his part for this blog—for better or worse—it sure would be nice to see fresh blood contributing to this blog. And making presentations at the various RPM events for that matter.


Bill Welch



Sl-SF box car build

Eric Hansmann
 

Another interesting post has hit the Resin Car Works blog. Charlie Duckworth summarizes his work on a classic Frisco single-sheathed box car he built from a Sunshine HO scale resin kit. Check it out here:

http://blog.resincarworks.com/slsf-single-sheathed-boxcar-sunshine-model-kit-65-3/

 

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

 

 

 


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Douglas Harding
 

Dale what I posted is from a chart  that was part of a usda document  I found a number of years ago when I was researching meat packing and livestock facilities. The data posted is what I put on a slide in my PowerPoint presentation. I don't recall any info about tons. But your most recent post matches what I have seen in other documents.

Doug Harding from my phone


From: devans1@... [STMFC]
Sent: ‎10/‎15/‎2015 9:17 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Livestock through Chicago

 

Doug,

Very interesting data.

Do they include the total tons, or head, for each livestock category by year?

The ICC reports suggest rail livestock moves did not drop as significantly as this data suggests during the 30's. Did the overall meat industry increase so much that even though trucking was taking over a majority of the market, total rail shipments did not drop as drastically?

Thanks,
Dave Evans


GATX Production List

mark_landgraf
 

Hi, I am currently dealing with scanning a bunch of GATX drawings. It would be helpful to have a production list. Does anyone have such a list? A scanned list would be fine too

Thanks
Mark_Landgraf at yahoo dot com
Albany NY


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