Date   

Re: Livestock through Chicago

devansprr
 

Tony,

The 1941 ICC report backs up what you are saying for several categories coming out of California - citrus, grapes especially, but not so for fresh vegetables, although I do not know if in 1941 CA was shipping that much fresh vegetables into the North East US. The transit times may have been too great during that era.

Actually it looks like the Erie stole a lot more traffic from the NYC than it did the PRR. The problem with comparing the PRR and Erie ICC totals for produce is that the PRR handled a much larger volume of fruits because of the traffic from the Southeast US. For example, PRR orange and grapefruit tonnage for 1941 included 457,439 tons received by interchange and delivered to PRR customers, and another 157,243 tons delivered to connecting carriers.  For the same categories, the Erie delivered 188,917 tons and 39,372 tons, respectively (Only about 1/3 of the PRR tonnage). The NYCentral only delivered 118,291 and 91,592 tons, respectively. This would suggest an "apples to apples" comparison of the PRR and Erie for this category is too distorted by shipments from Florida. What is interesting is how much citrus the Erie delivered to its customers - since the Erie did not touch many of the large eastern cities, so I would assume this was traffic into NYCity. This would suggest that the PFE was more interested in selecting the Erie over the NYCentral to get into NYCity, than it was over the PRR (The Erie route may even have been shorter than the PRR's route.) While delivery to Erie customers exceed NYCentral delivery to their own customers,  the NYCentral did interchange a lot of citrus, I suspect on into Boston and New England, where the Erie and PRR could not reach easily.

Grapes are another matter, and I do not recall Florida being a significant grape growing state (too humid.) Here the Erie ruled - carrying a lot more grapes than either the PRR or NYCentral. All data is 1941, tons accepted from other carriers:

Erie - 86,686 delivered, 71,265 to connecting line
NYCentral - 31,609,  20,879
PRR - 65,936,  11,655

These are the only two categories in the ICC data where it is clear the Erie was the preferred road into NYCity. The PRR's fresh vegetable tonnage (received in interchange as opposed to locally grown) was 8 times the Erie's fresh vegetable traffic received in interchange. No doubt much of the PRR traffic came from the Southeast US.

The ICC data would certainly appear to support the remarks you heard from PFE, especially for traffic into NYCity.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote :

Bruce Smith wrote:

 
What Tony also fails to note is that in spite of the supposed shipper preference for the Erie, the PRR hauled vastly more perishable traffic in terms of carloads than the Erie (about 3 times more).

       Please note I never said that most perishable traffic went over the Erie. I have repeated what former PFE people told me, that they strongly and frequently urged shippers to choose the Erie for faster, more dependable service and fewer damage claims. But obviously the Erie served a limited amount of the east, primarily the New York area. You could still use Erie for part of the trip to other cities, but obviously Pennsy's service area would draw a lot of traffic. 
       I think if you look at the size of cities served by PRR compared to Erie, carrying three times as much perishable traffic is a sad multiple for PRR.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Livestock through Chicago

devansprr
 

Tim,

No new math for me (too old), but perhaps cherry picking of data on your part.

When I said that the tonnages per car were interesting, I had assumed that "Fresh Meat" was being moved in meat reefers. Since Fresh meat car loads outnumbered the category you selected by five to one, and the fresh meat loads averaged within just a few percent of the cattle and double deck hog livestock car tonnages (fresh meat loads were actually 1% lower than double deck hog loads), I think "not that different" could be appropriate. Even if you combine the two meat load categories, which averaged 13.6 tons per car load combined - that is only 25% more than the average for all stock car loads (just under 11 tons per car of livestock), which includes, goats, sheep and single deck Hog loads, which one would expect to be significantly lighter than the bulk of the livestock movements. The combined 13.6 tons per reefer is only 15% higher than double deck hog car loads.

Considering that products of agriculture averaged 28.4 tons per car load, most grains averaged around 40 tons per car load (these are all for 1941), products of forests averaged 31.7 tons per carload, and manufacturing car loads averaged 27.9 tons per car load, a remark that livestock and meat reefer tons/car were "not that different," appears viable, but YMMV.

Cherry picking data may get you to 65.3%, but that is a factor of 2.6 to 4 higher than can be rightfully claimed.

No new math required.
Dave Evans 


---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote :

> Cattle and calves, single deck - 11.3, 305,555
> Packing house products, edible, N.O.S. not including canned meats - 18.7, 48,320
> Looks like tons per stock car and tons per reefer may not have been that different.
> Dave Evans

Interesting. When I was in school 18.7 compared to 11.3 showed that 18.7 was 65.3%
larger. But then I never understood the new math.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Modeling the X29 and 1924 ARA cars

hayden_tom@...
 

Jack, and all, 

Steve Hoxie clarified it for me. Looking at Ben;s posted drawings, the inside vs outside refers to whether the visible edge of the sheets (except the end sheets) appears "inside" (i.e. between) the two rows of rivets, or whether the visible seem appears "outside" both rows.  Simple concept once you get it. 

Tom


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tim O'Connor
 

Bruce

I would expect that simply because the PRR and the B&O each served most
of the same territory, while the Erie missed the entire Philadelphia to
Baltimore to Washington corridor, as well as Detroit and Pittsburgh. The
Erie may have gotten a disproportionate amount of perishables and meat to
New York City and New England. But there's no question when comparing the
PRR to the Erie it's like comparing a fire hose to a garden hose.

Tim O'

What Tony also fails to note is that in spite of the supposed shipper preference
for the Erie, the PRR hauled vastly more perishable traffic in terms of carloads
than the Erie (about 3 times more).

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tony Thompson
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

 
What Tony also fails to note is that in spite of the supposed shipper preference for the Erie, the PRR hauled vastly more perishable traffic in terms of carloads than the Erie (about 3 times more).

       Please note I never said that most perishable traffic went over the Erie. I have repeated what former PFE people told me, that they strongly and frequently urged shippers to choose the Erie for faster, more dependable service and fewer damage claims. But obviously the Erie served a limited amount of the east, primarily the New York area. You could still use Erie for part of the trip to other cities, but obviously Pennsy's service area would draw a lot of traffic. 
       I think if you look at the size of cities served by PRR compared to Erie, carrying three times as much perishable traffic is a sad multiple for PRR.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Livestock through Chicago

Bruce Smith
 

What Tony also fails to note is that in spite of the supposed shipper preference for the Erie, the PRR hauled vastly more perishable traffic in terms of carloads than the Erie (about 3 times more).

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:30 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Livestock through Chicago



True, but I've always wondered if the PRR didn't just get stuck with the bill
because so much of the perishables TERMINATED on the PRR after relatively short
hauls. After all if the produce deep inside the car rotted on the Santa Fe, how
would anyone know until the car was being unloaded in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia?

Were damage claims to perishables pro-rated based on "hours of control" ? If it
took Santa Fe 110 hours to get to Chicago, and PRR took 50 hours to forward that
to New York, it is fair to blame PRR for all of the damage?


    I take your point, Tim, but Erie from Chicago to New York had far smaller claims; B&O to its eastern cities had distinctly lower claims than PRR. If it was just a question of "who delivered it," they should have had just as much complaint as the PRR. My own guess would be that claims were pro-rated by mileage handled. Does anyone know for sure?

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history







Re: Modeling the X29 and 1924 ARA cars

Jack Mullen
 

Tom,

I'm not defending the terminology, but think in terms of the order in which the plates are applied. For the 1923 "in" pattern, the plate at the end goes on first, then successive overlapping plates working INWARD toward the door opening. With the 1928 pattern, start at the door and work OUTWARD toward the end. (Okay, the second from end is actually last, but generally...)

Jack Mullen


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Jack Mullen
 

Tony,

A claims agent told me a number of years ago that settlement of a particular claim would be prorated according to the division of revenue from the move. I don't know whether that instance should be generalized, and of course steam-era practice may have differed from the post-dereg far future. Clearly proration does not apply where one carrier is responsible for the loss, as would be the case in a derailment.

Jack Mullen



Re: Livestock through Chicago

Aley, Jeff A
 

How were the rates divided between the carriers?  My own uninformed guess is that the liability would be proportional to the revenue, which perhaps included switching charges and not just mileage.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:31 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Livestock through Chicago

 

 

True, but I've always wondered if the PRR didn't just get stuck with the bill
because so much of the perishables TERMINATED on the PRR after relatively short
hauls. After all if the produce deep inside the car rotted on the Santa Fe, how
would anyone know until the car was being unloaded in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia?

Were damage claims to perishables pro-rated based on "hours of control" ? If it
took Santa Fe 110 hours to get to Chicago, and PRR took 50 hours to forward that
to New York, it is fair to blame PRR for all of the damage?

 

    I take your point, Tim, but Erie from Chicago to New York had far smaller claims; B&O to its eastern cities had distinctly lower claims than PRR. If it was just a question of "who delivered it," they should have had just as much complaint as the PRR. My own guess would be that claims were pro-rated by mileage handled. Does anyone know for sure?

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 

 


Re: Livestock through Chicago

np328
 

  I have seen from letters in my railroads files - icing reports called up for investigations of produce gone bad.

    One I recall was produce gone bad and the icing reports from all the railroads who handled the car were collected. Load originated in Wash. state and at either Laurel, MT or Dickinson, ND (?) - no ice was reported as added because bunker was found full.
     Letter from GM stated that given outside temperature and time since prior icing staff at site should have checked and poked to see if this was a false ice dome and superintendent at site was asked for better performance or find a replacement who could give that. No need to guess who paid entire claim.  
                                            
                                                                                                Jim Dick - St. Paul


Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?

RICH CHAPIN
 

The Lehigh Valley May 1932 ORER lists 30 hoppers (#s50000 to 50029) as “Special Type, Steel Hatchway Roof, Hop. Bot.”  with LO designation.

The series shows up in July 1931 ORER as “Cement,  Steel, Hopper Bottom” as #50000 thru 50017, but have no designation.

 

Rich Chapin

 


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tony Thompson
 

True, but I've always wondered if the PRR didn't just get stuck with the bill
because so much of the perishables TERMINATED on the PRR after relatively short
hauls. After all if the produce deep inside the car rotted on the Santa Fe, how
would anyone know until the car was being unloaded in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia?

Were damage claims to perishables pro-rated based on "hours of control" ? If it
took Santa Fe 110 hours to get to Chicago, and PRR took 50 hours to forward that
to New York, it is fair to blame PRR for all of the damage?


    I take your point, Tim, but Erie from Chicago to New York had far smaller claims; B&O to its eastern cities had distinctly lower claims than PRR. If it was just a question of "who delivered it," they should have had just as much complaint as the PRR. My own guess would be that claims were pro-rated by mileage handled. Does anyone know for sure?

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?

WILLIAM PARDIE
 


I have on my roster an ERIE covered hop;per that predatges WWII.  This is a samaller car and
is the same car that Gene Diemling did in MR back in tghe 70's.  This thread reminded me that
I have never upgraded the rtrucks on this car.  Doen anyone know what Tahoe Models truck
is correct for this car?

Thanks in advance:

Bill Pardie

On Oct 14, 2015, at 5:14 PM, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

The DL&W photo collection at Steamtown has a fascinating collection of six photos (X7126-X7132) showing HCCX/Hercules Portland Cement covered hoppers on a barge in Hoboken, taken on 4/1/1930. Zooming in on a few of these cars shows them to be 70 ton, four discharge bay cars, with a new date of 12/1928.The number series is at least HCCX 1002-1028 (my 1930 ORER is buried right now so I can't confirm the full series). Sadly, the cars "seem" to have a reweigh station on the L&NE, so it's doubtful that they made it west of the Mississippi. Still, it's fun to see covered hoppers that old, and with stemwinders!
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "golden1014@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:58 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?



Hi John,

They most certainly would be prototypical.  I'm also interested in early covered hoppers because they come in a fascinating variety of stylesunlike hte later 1958 cuft cars and later PS cars which all looked the same.  I have collected a small file of photos at work of B&O, NYC, PRR and other early covered hoppers and I'd be happy to share the photos with you.  E-mail me offline at Golden1014 at Yahoo.com.

I just ran across a photo of a NKP car, rebuilt from a USRA hopper, that I'm dying to model next in HO.   RCW makes decals so it should be easy using a Tichy car to start with.  I recently finished kitbashing an HO model of a C&O car (300-series) which was easy to rebuild using the Intermountain car.

I'm sure these cars generally saw captive service on their home railroads but we could justify one showing up from time to time.  

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL







Re: Livestock through Chicago

np328
 

Well if that is true Tim, then the drovers or whomever was assigned to watch these livestock were not doing their job.  The railroads could contest the claims and ask for an investigation also.   Jim Dick  -  St. Paul, MN                                                      


Re: GATX Production List

mark_landgraf
 

Dave,

A whole bunch of 1940-1944 tank car pieces and parts. Not too interesting.  But with production list I could at least start to figure out whose cars they were used on.

Mark Landgraf


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tim O'Connor
 


True, but I've always wondered if the PRR didn't just get stuck with the bill
because so much of the perishables TERMINATED on the PRR after relatively short
hauls. After all if the produce deep inside the car rotted on the Santa Fe, how
would anyone know until the car was being unloaded in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia?

Were damage claims to perishables pro-rated based on "hours of control" ? If it
took Santa Fe 110 hours to get to Chicago, and PRR took 50 hours to forward that
to New York, it is fair to blame PRR for all of the damage?

Tim O'Connor


 > PFE people I interviewed told me that the PRR had the highest perishable claims,
 > per ton-mile, of ANY American railroad. Needless to say, this was hardly a secret
 > among shippers.
 > Tony Thompson 


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tim O'Connor
 

Indeed the construction continued through World War II. There is a huge
collection of photos on Facebook of the 1942 construction (over railroad
yards and several mainlines) of a huge new bridge over the Mississippi River
between East Dubuque IL and Dubuque IA -- a major meatpacking town! The
enormous girders are labeled Bethlehem Steel -- I'd love to see how they
transported them. Possibly by barge down the Ohio and up the Mississippi,
as they seem far too large for rail cars. The collection has some nice
shots of freight trains.

Tim O'Connor

As for Illinois itself, with large brokerage stockyards at St. Louis, Peoria, Chicago, and nearby Milwaukee and Indianapolis, there were options everywhere for farmers to move their stock themselves, cutting out several layers of middlemen. With the Good Roads Movement having its start in Illinois and perfect topography for easy paving, the transition to motor vehicles here was blazingly fast.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tim O'Connor
 

Cattle and calves, single deck - 11.3, 305,555
> Packing house products, edible, N.O.S. not including canned meats - 18.7, 48,320
> Looks like tons per stock car and tons per reefer may not have been that different.
> Dave Evans

Interesting. When I was in school 18.7 compared to 11.3 showed that 18.7 was 65.3%
larger. But then I never understood the new math.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Tim O'Connor
 

Dave

The ITC was a small railroad -- the Law of Large Numbers applies. A small
road can experience a 100% increase from 1 carload to 2 carloads. So yes I'm
sure there was some local phenomenom (I think ITC was near Decatur yes?) that
caused the increase for them. All of the other roads were far larger than the
ITC -- even the TP&W had far more traffic.

Tim O'

I wasn't questioning your post - I am wondering what happened? Did something drastic change in Illinois, and specific to the IT, between the date of your data, and the 1941 ICC report I have?

DaVe Evans


Re: Livestock through Chicago

Dave Nelson
 

A number of volumes are held by the UC system here in California. I have a
daughter in the UC system right now and have asked her to request some .pdf
copies for me. It'll be a while before she's home again (I want to be part
of the selecting process -- I want 1944, 1950, and 1956); If allowed, Ill
post them to the files section (the "authors" went out of business before
copyright renewal was due and so it is highly probable they're in the public
domain: works published between 1923 and 1963 that were copyrighted but not
renewed are in the public domain per
https://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm).

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 11:13 AM

There's been a lot of talk about livestock traffic in and out of Chicago,
but no hard numbers to back up anyone's claims and SWAGs. Let's fix that:

https://books.google.com/books?id=2F00AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA3&dq=chicago+union+stock
yard&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCQQ6AEwADhQahUKEwjLuYnQ4b_IAhVCFh4KHbnyB7c#v=onepage&q
&f=false

Both UW Madison and Cornell seem to have a full collection of these books
through the 1960s, but sadly only two are fully available online. Here's
1921:
https://books.google.com/books?id=6rk9AQAAMAAJ&dq=chicago+union+stockyard&so
urce=gbs_book_similarbooks
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

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