Date   

Re: new car kit from Dry Creek

John C. La Rue, Jr. <MOFWCABOOSE@...>
 

Actually, the Rodger Ballast Car Company built many different designs of "Hart Convertible" cars, according to customer specifications. I have a 1906 catalog showing cars with capacities from 30 to 50 tons and lengths of 34 to 41 feet. In addition to "convertible gondolas", they also offered box and stock cars with drop bottoms.
 
A big selling point was that the cars could be run in general service as well as ballast service, which is why they were almost invariably listed with the freight cars instead of the nonrevenue equipment in the Official Railway Equipment Register . Just how much general service they saw is problematic, as ballast service was rather hard on the equipment.
 
Rodger, like some other makers of ballast cars and other types of work equipment, did not have a factory of their own. Just an office, where they held the patents, took orders, designed the cars, and then had the cars built by whichever car manufacturer offered the best price.
 
John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: aschneiderjr@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Oct 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] new car kit from Dry Creek

 

Some readers may be interested to know the prototype (SP W-30 ballast car), the scale (HO) and the price ($32) before deciding whether to go farther.

Tony's blog indicates that similar equipment was built by AC&F for UP, OSL and PE.

I would have thought that specialized work equipment was fairly standardized and the manufacturer, would have sold a successful model to a number of roads, but modelers need&n bsp;to do research to evaluate this kit for their own roads.

Did these cars go off line in revenue service, and if so, how far?

I imagine that if one were needed at a job site several would be. If only one load of ballast is needed it could be sent in a gondola along with a gang armed with wheelbarrows and shovels. Links to photos showing them in action would be very interesting.

Alex Schneider
 

From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...; Espee List <Espee@...>
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:37 PM
Subject: [STMFC] new car kit from Dry Creek

      Not everyone on the list may be aware of an impressive and innovative new car kit, offered by Dry Creek Models, for a Hart Convertible Gondola. It is produced as a one-piece body by 3-D printing. I have a brief description of it, and links to the Dry Creek web pages, in my blog post today. If you're interested, it's at this link:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-new-dry-creek-sp-work-cars.html

Tony Thompson            Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705        www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






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Posted by: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
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Re: new car kit from Dry Creek

Alexander Schneider Jr
 


Some readers may be interested to know the prototype (SP W-30 ballast car), the scale (HO) and the price ($32) before deciding whether to go farther.

Tony's blog indicates that similar equipment was built by AC&F for UP, OSL and PE.

I would have thought that specialized work equipment was fairly standardized and the manufacturer, would have sold a successful model to a number of roads, but modelers need to do research to evaluate this kit for their own roads.

Did these cars go off line in revenue service, and if so, how far?

I imagine that if one were needed at a job site several would be. If only one load of ballast is needed it could be sent in a gondola along with a gang armed with wheelbarrows and shovels. Links to photos showing them in action would be very interesting.

Alex Schneider
 


From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...; Espee List
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:37 PM
Subject: [STMFC] new car kit from Dry Creek

      Not everyone on the list may be aware of an impressive and innovative new car kit, offered by Dry Creek Models, for a Hart Convertible Gondola. It is produced as a one-piece body by 3-D printing. I have a brief description of it, and links to the Dry Creek web pages, in my blog post today. If you're interested, it's at this link:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-new-dry-creek-sp-work-cars.html

Tony Thompson            Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705        www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






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Posted by: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
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Re: Handling RR Claims

Greg Martin
 

Tony,
 
Precisely just a car management arm, like REA, the FGEX consortium, and Trailer Train.
 
PFE handled the revenue stream for the railroads they represented, understood, and kept their share regardless of how small.  Most of the folks from PFE likely worked for the parent railroads at some point.  They likely understood the claims process that goes without saying, but settling the claim was up to the destination carrier. So the settlement was never really on the PFE's radar as it didn't impact their role as car management and that is likely you'll never find any of the documents the PFE people speak of as they are in the  UP or SP's records.
 
So knowing how the railroads work this situation, we'll never really know why statements are made or the actual foundation for the statements.  Just remember all damage claims are usually attributed to service issues, and all carriers had service issues, when the buyers and sellers went to market the railroads were busy and the complaining began.
 
Again, the PRR more often than any other eastern carrier was generally the delivering carrier  (by the numbers) and likely the target of a lot of marketing guys and agents because they did have to file the claims in the name of the consignee against the railroad. The service issues on PRR deserves a major "dig" in the ICC reports because if what your testimonies say are true then I am sure there would have been some form of action taken by the ICC. But it doesn't impact my modeling so I will not be the one doing the digging.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
Tony replies:

       Greg,
 
PFE was not a railroad. They did not operate on ANY miles of mainline track. They were owned by, and supplied cars to, UP and SP (and managed cars for WP). ~ Major Snip! ~


Re: new car kit from Dry Creek

Benjamin Hom
 

Garth Groff wrote:
"IIRC, the Tru-Scale Hart car was the same as the T-M. T-M bought the whole Tru-Scale line of work cars and offered them without any changes, except for including T-M trucks (and a lot of phoney roadnames)."

Not quite true. The Train-Miniature model was an injection-molded styrene copy of the Tru-Scale/Silver Streak model, which was a craftsman kit.


Ben Hom


Re: new car kit from Dry Creek

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Tony,

IIRC, the Tru-Scale Hart car was the same as the T-M. T-M bought the whole Tru-Scale line of work cars and offered them without any changes, except for including T-M trucks (and a lot of phoney roadnames).

I still have one of the Walthers cars, and owned a couple of the T-M examples, now long gone.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 10/19/15 1:37 PM, Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Not everyone on the list may be aware of an impressive and innovative new car kit, offered by Dry Creek Models, for a Hart Convertible Gondola. It is produced as a one-piece body by 3-D printing. I have a brief description of it, and links to the Dry Creek web pages, in my blog post today. If you're interested, it's at this link:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-new-dry-creek-sp-work-cars.html

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



Re: new car kit from Dry Creek

Benjamin Hom
 

Mike Bauers wrote:
"I think it’s great to see the old Tru-Scale HO model redone to the prototype.  The Tru-Scale dates from late 50’s tooling, it’s long needed correcting."
Tony Thompson replied:
"I didn't know about a Tru-Scale car. The familiar Silver Streak kit, from the very early 1950s, has two drawbacks, that its underframe truss is oversize though correctly located back from the side sill, and that the entire car is about 10 percent oversize, as were many of the early Silver Streak kits."
 
They appear to be the same model.  The model appeared in the 1960 Tru-Scale catalog:
 
However, this instruction sheet has both Silver Streak and Tru-Scale branding on it:
 
 
Ben Hom
 
 


Re: contact adhesive between 2 release papers

ed_mines
 

I followed up on the adhesive mentioned in RMC. It was too expensive to buy just to see what it is, particularly after my bad experience with the smelly version.


Are any of the 3M products mentioned odorless?


ed mines


Re: new car kit from Dry Creek

Armand Premo
 


And before that ,by Silver Streak.Armand PremoOriginal Message -----

Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] new car kit from Dry Creek

 

I think it’s great to see the old Tru-Scale HO model redone to the prototype,.


The Tru-Scale dates from late 50’s tooling, it’s long needed correcting.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Oct 19, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Tony Thompson  wrote:

Not everyone on the list may be aware of an impressive and innovative new car kit, offered by Dry Creek Models, for a Hart Convertible Gondola. It is produced as a one-piece body by 3-D printing. I have a brief description of it, and links to the Dry Creek web pages, in my blog post today. If you're interested, it's at this link:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-new-dry-creek-sp-work-cars.html

No virus found in this message.
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Re: new car kit from Dry Creek

Tony Thompson
 

Mike Bauers wrote:

 

I think it’s great to see the old Tru-Scale HO model redone to the prototype,.

The Tru-Scale dates from late 50’s tooling, it’s long needed correcting.

  I didn't know about a Tru-Scale car. The familiar Silver Streak kit, from the very early 1950s, has two drawbacks, that its underframe truss is oversize though correctly located back from the side sill, and that the entire car is about 10 percent oversize, as were many of the early Silver Streak kits. Sometimes that can be corrected, but with the Hart gondola, not really. The Dry Creek model indeed replaces all those problems.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: new car kit from Dry Creek

mwbauers
 

I think it’s great to see the old Tru-Scale HO model redone to the prototype,.

The Tru-Scale dates from late 50’s tooling, it’s long needed correcting.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Oct 19, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Tony Thompson  wrote:

Not everyone on the list may be aware of an impressive and innovative new car kit, offered by Dry Creek Models, for a Hart Convertible Gondola. It is produced as a one-piece body by 3-D printing. I have a brief description of it, and links to the Dry Creek web pages, in my blog post today. If you're interested, it's at this link:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-new-dry-creek-sp-work-cars.html


new car kit from Dry Creek

Tony Thompson
 

Not everyone on the list may be aware of an impressive and innovative new car kit, offered by Dry Creek Models, for a Hart Convertible Gondola. It is produced as a one-piece body by 3-D printing. I have a brief description of it, and links to the Dry Creek web pages, in my blog post today. If you're interested, it's at this link:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-new-dry-creek-sp-work-cars.html

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Handling RR Claims (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED

Tony, Greg, and Group;

I have read a great deal of correspondence on this issue in the PRRT&HS files, and it documents a very complex, and in some cases, pretty much criminal series of factors to which the PRR (and NYC and others) was either subject, or involved.

There was only so much a railroad could do about damage to contents, and the PRR attempted to do as many things as it could to reduce claims. This included strict instructions on icing, coupling speeds, handling of cars, expediting of reefers, their position in a train, how they were forwarded, the creation of trains or schedules that handled reefer strings as soon as they were delivered, and other means.

Ultimately, with everyone close to the ground seeing that end customers were blatantly destroying produce in favor of claims (and I saw this myself numerous times in the PRR produced yard in Pgh), and in some cases outright fraud, the PRR considered abandoning this red-ink business. What I don't see in the PRR correspondence is a lack of caring about this issue. In fact, I think there is more study, evaluation, and thus, correspondence on this issue than some issues of far greater importance, like modernization of facilities and other subjects the PRR should have been looking more extensively into.

Of course it took changes in regulations, bankruptcy, and shedding of many of these business lines to move back into the black. But that is another subject...

I considered writing this all up in a book, but with books on these subjects not selling, I changed my mind. It'd just be another subject for argument, either way. Nowadays, no good deed goes unpunished.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:09 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] Handling RR Claims



Greg Martin wrote:



Tony are you saying that Pacific Fruit Express was not at fault? Exactly how many miles of track and trackage rights did PFE operate? Every car was properly handled from the fields in California to Ogden, UT, New Orleans, St. Louis, MO, Tucumcari, NM, or any gateway?


The PRR might have recorded more claims, but I don't think anyone here would believe they were the cause of the claim. and they handled more perishable freight beyond the gateways than any other eastern carriers, but not so with livestock. The PRR gets the bad wrap because they are the delivering carrier. It has little or nothing to do with any perception of the PRR's service.


Greg, PFE was not a railroad. They did not operate on ANY miles of mainline track. They were owned by, and supplied cars to, UP and SP (and managed cars for WP). My understanding from the PFE people I interviewed is that claims were settled EITHER by identifying a mistake (car wasn't iced when scheduled, missed a connection, etc.), in which case the maker of the mistake was liable, OR by pro-rating the claim according to miles handled by each railroad en route. Assuming for the moment that the PFE report is true, that PRR had the highest perishable claims PER TON-MILE of any railroad, I don't see how you can say they get a "bad rap" as delivering carrier, because the claims either reflect a mistake or are pro-rated. I'm aware that PRR talked a lot about service, but this perishable claim issue suggests that maybe they talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. (Heresy, I know, to Greg and others.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 Blocke dwww.signaturepress.com <Blockedhttp://www.signaturepress.com>
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com <mailto:tony@signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history






CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED


Re: Handling RR Claims

Tony Thompson
 

Greg Martin wrote:

 
Tony are you saying that Pacific Fruit Express was not at fault? Exactly how many miles of track and trackage rights did PFE operate?  Every car was properly handled from the fields in California to Ogden, UT, New Orleans, St. Louis, MO, Tucumcari, NM, or any gateway?
 
The PRR might have recorded more claims, but I don't think anyone here would believe they were the cause of the claim. and they handled more perishable freight beyond the gateways than any other eastern carriers, but not so with livestock. The PRR gets the bad wrap because they are the delivering carrier. It has little or nothing to do with any perception of the PRR's service.

       Greg, PFE was not a railroad. They did not operate on ANY miles of mainline track. They were owned by, and supplied cars to, UP and SP (and managed cars for WP). My understanding from the PFE people I interviewed is that claims were settled EITHER by identifying a mistake (car wasn't iced when scheduled, missed a connection, etc.), in which case the maker of the mistake was liable, OR by pro-rating the claim according to miles handled by each railroad en route. Assuming for the moment that the PFE report is true, that PRR had the highest perishable claims PER TON-MILE of any railroad, I don't see how you can say they get a "bad rap" as delivering carrier, because the claims either reflect a mistake or are pro-rated. I'm aware that PRR talked a lot about service, but this perishable claim issue suggests that maybe they talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. (Heresy, I know, to Greg and others.)

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Handling RR Claims

Greg Martin
 

Tony sez:
So clearly the PRR record of high perishable claims PER TON-MILE do reflect the quality of PRR handling of perishables, whatever may have happened on connecting roads.

Tony Thompson
Tony,
 
The way a claim was handed and are still handled is the consignee or his agent reports the damage to the delivering carrier. The clerk on the phone whines and bitches for a half an hour blaming the shipper and then the claim is documented in this era a local agent is contacted. The local agent arrives and whines and bitches that it is the fault of the shipper and he processes the claim for the agreed percentage of claim and salvage. The agent tells the consignee or his agent what to destroy and what to set aside for salvage. The agent contacts the carriers salvage agent and they collect the salvage for a token price and recoup what they can for themselves (there is a whole industry built around this).  A review of the claim is made and a decision to the exact amount of the claim is given to the receiver and the receiver whines and bitches for an hour about how fugged up the railroad is and life goes on. Simple. 
 
I never said that any railroad was to blame as all the railroads by the process are to blame.
 
Tony are you saying that Pacific Fruit Express was not at fault? Exactly how many miles of track and trackage rights did PFE operate?  Every car was properly handled from the fields in California to Ogden, UT, New Orleans, St. Louis, MO, Tucumcari, NM, or any gateway?
 
The problem is most of you have never had the pleasure of dealing with a real live railroad and you don't realize who wags the dogs tail. The operating department is much like your wife, never wrong. It is obviously someone elses fault. Until you live it you will never understand that the shipper and receiver have another prospective and truly they are the revenue stream.   
 
The PRR might have recorded more claims, but I don't think anyone here would believe they were the cause of the claim. and they handled more perishable freight beyond the gateways than any other eastern carriers, but not so with livestock. The PRR gets the bad wrap because they are the delivering carrier. It has little or nothing to do with any perception of the PRR's service.
 
Greg Martin  


Re: Digest Number 9852

Tony Thompson
 

Steve Caple wrote:

STMFC@yahoogroups.com wrote:
I take your point, Tim, but Erie from Chicago to New York
had far smaller
claims; B&O to its eastern cities had distinctly lower
claims than PRR.
I'd love to see how the Nickel plate fared in that regard.
I see Mike's termination notice, but it's not close to midnight where I live. The NKP were regarded as dependable and fast, like the Erie. They did not, of course, reach the eastern seaboard, but one PFE interviewee told me they recommended using NKP as far as possible..

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Livestock Transportation

Douglas Harding
 

Here is a link to a number of reports on transportation from the Railroad Committee for the Study of Transportation: Subcommittee on Economic Study Association of American Railroads

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Association%20of%20American%20Railroads.%20Railroad%20Committee%20for%20the%20Study%20of%20Transportation

 

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Livestock Transportation

devansprr
 

Doug,

Many thanks for sharing - provides not only good insight to what was happening specifically in the meat market during the 20's through mid-forties, but it also provides some insight into the overall shift in economics of the food industry, and even the nation in general.

Many Thanks,
Dave Evans


Re: ADMIN: Terminating the Livestock Through Chicago Thread

devansprr
 

Mike,

Taking advantage of the midnight cutoff, many thanks to Doug Harding for posting the files on meat transport. Many interesting trends reported, which varied by types of livestock - almost no change in rail shipments for sheep, but with a massive reductions for hogs, and a transition of hogs to nearly all double deck cars during the 30's. Cattle were in between since cattle appear to have been raised further from the customer than hogs.

Trucks were taking over the short haul market, and more packing plants were being built (Doug's files have some interesting data on the number of packing plants), so average haul for livestock in the Midwest to slaughter was dropping (regardless of transport method), and so was the market share for rail livestock shipments.

While hog shipment by rail in the Midwest was plummeting, there was still lots of rail shipment of livestock into the east coast because of the much longer hauls.

My general conclusions:

1) If modeling the Midwest into the 20's, nearly every farm town had a stock yard maintained by the local railroad - free for the rancher to use when shipping by rail. As trucks moved in, the rail stockyards closest to the slaughterhouses were the first to be abandoned. By WWII, the transition to trucking of livestock to local slaughterhouses was well underway.

2) Conversely, modeling an eastern trunk line even through WWII would still see significant livestock traffic, especially during WWII when tire and fuel shortages reduced livestock shipments by truck. A lot of beef and pork was slaughtered on the east coast, even during WWII.

3)  The RR's appear to have wanted the traffic, unlike Mike's experience with the New York Central in 1959. Case in point was the Illinois Central actually started providing free local pickup of hogs in the late 30's in an attempt to reclaim some of the business, and had some success with the promotion. By then some farmers had trucks big enough to haul Hogs to market, and the IC even gave Farmers who dropped their hogs off at their pens a discount for their business. Hardly sounds like an industry trying to get out of the business.

4) During the 20's and 30's transportation costs were actually a very significant portion of meat costs, so it is understandable that companies built more slaughterhouses closer to the sources of beef and pork, although, surprsingly, not sheep (although that was a much smaller market.)

5) Trucks were actually more dangerous for hogs (about twice the in-transit death rate,) so it looks like the industry's shift to trucking was a lot more about total transportation costs than poor rail service.

Thanks for the stay Sheriff,

Dave Evans


Re: Digest Number 9852

Steve Caple <stevecaple@...>
 

STMFC@yahoogroups.com wrote:
I take your point, Tim, but Erie from Chicago to New York had far smaller
claims; B&O to its eastern cities had distinctly lower claims than PRR.
I'd love to see how the Nickel plate fared in that regard.


Re: ADMIN: Terminating the Livestock Through Chicago Thread

midrly
 

Mike and everyone--

Thanks for your replies to my post. 

My initial question has been answered.  Having built a RI Westerfield stock car and with on of their Santa Fe stock cars on my workbench right now, I was looking for some justification for them somehow being in Eastern Ontario in the fall of 1956.  But it appears that this is in the realm of near impossibility, regardless of the fast service offered ex Chicago's Elsdon yard on GTW/CN Train 490.
   
One of these cars at Bruceford on the Union Pacific on the other hand?  Hopefully not set off because of a hotbox, but rather maybe some livestock for a local farmer...

And the C&O's Robert R. Young made so much about that hog being able to pass through Chicago without changing trains while a passenger couldn't!  Which did get me wondering if many hogs or other livestock did on a regular basis.  But this has segued into the quite the discussion!

Baseball is on a lot of Canadians' minds just now for some reason.  Probably to take us away from that long Federal election campaign that we are going through...


Steve Lucas. 

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