Date   

Re: 3-D printers

Pierre Oliver
 

I had planned to stay out of this, but to reinforce what Bruce is saying;
I had a test print made of an HO scale ACF proprietary roof at Shapeways. It cost me $25.00 to print. The resolution was not remotely good enough to cast from for production runs. Rough texture, etc.
The same CAD drawing was sent to another high end printer and I paid $200.00 for the part and it's as smooth as any resin part you've ever seen. That I can use for creating masters.
It might be useful to stop calling it 3D printing and refer to it as it really is, "Rapid Prototyping".
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 10/27/15 11:42 AM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Jon,


These are monofilament extrusion printers,  For model work, they’re crap.  I don’t know how many times we have to say it, but the resolution of “bargain” 3D printers is insufficient to produce satisfactory parts for models.  PERIOD.  Someone will likely chime in with a pie in the sky view of what MIGHT be coming and yes, it might be coming.  But right now, it ain’t here and as Tom Madden and others who actually use this technology repeatedly point out, to get the resolution that modelers need, you need the really really expensive machines...

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 27, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



    Monoprice has a couple of 3-D printers, one at $399 and one at $599.  Not sure if these are the normal price range or good prices.
-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS





Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: USRA & Accurail 8-panel car (UNCLASSIFIED)

Bill Welch
 

Hmm, I thought the PRR X26 was a USRA car and much this discussion has been about clarifying the fact that the Accurail 8-panel car given its underframe, roof, ends, and types of steel bracing is clearly not a USRA design. Especially given its Z-braces, ends, and roof, how can it be bashed into a X26? Or why would one do so given the Tichy USRA SS styrene kit?

Bill Welch


Re: 3-D printers

Bruce Smith
 

Jon,

These are monofilament extrusion printers,  For model work, they’re crap.  I don’t know how many times we have to say it, but the resolution of “bargain” 3D printers is insufficient to produce satisfactory parts for models.  PERIOD.  Someone will likely chime in with a pie in the sky view of what MIGHT be coming and yes, it might be coming.  But right now, it ain’t here and as Tom Madden and others who actually use this technology repeatedly point out, to get the resolution that modelers need, you need the really really expensive machines...

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 27, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



    Monoprice has a couple of 3-D printers, one at $399 and one at $599.  Not sure if these are the normal price range or good prices.
-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS




3-D printers

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

    Monoprice has a couple of 3-D printers, one at $399 and one at $599.  Not sure if these are the normal price range or good prices.
-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Naperville

mwbauers
 

Jack and guys,

People are talking about a problem with Shapeways and multiple parts on a sprue. Something about a set-up fee for each part rather than a single set-up fee for the sprue of parts.

For now, if you sprue in 3d, you better have your own 3d printer.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Oct 27, 2015, at 10:09 AM, 'Jack Burgess' wrote:

Why create a rubber mold when you can draw that part in 3D and make a sprue
of as many copies as you want?


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: USRA & Accurail 8-panel car (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED

It also bashes nicely into a PRR X26.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 10:31 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] USRA & Accurail 8-panel car



That's just the response that I was trying to elicit from my statement. The Accurail single sheathed boxcar is a beautiful model. I was hoping that it was closely based on several prototypes that could be kitbashed into excellent models.
Dave

________________________________

From: "fgexbill@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] USRA & Accurail 8-panel car



Regarding your statement "I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly regarded among prototype modelers:-)" I think that is an overly brood statement. I have used it to build four different models that I consider good models. To me the issue it is that not good for every 8-panel SS car with Z-bar bracing as some would seem to like it to be. I have also ripped its excellent Hutchins roof off the body and used it on several resin kits as it is the best around in any media.

I do wish the sheathing was not so distressed but that has not kept me from using it however.


Bill Welch




CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED


Re: Naperville

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

Why create a rubber mold when you can draw that part in 3D and make a sprue
of as many copies as you want?

Jack Burgess

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 7:43 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Naperville


I had an excellent time at Naperville, although there were far fewer models
than in years past. And frankly, the display room sucks because the lighting
is so poor in there! I hope next year's RPM meet moves to a better location.
And I hope more people (especially post-1960 modelers) show up with models.
(No, I didn't bring any this year.)

The clinics where I learned the most were by Jack Burgess and Tom Madden.
Jack gave an excellent talk on using free CAD software to create designs for
3-D parts. This is something any of us can do! And Tom Madden offered his
expert advice on using 3-D design to create MASTERS for resin parts, which
holds great promise for creation of more excellent resin freight car models.
Finally Aaron Gjermundson gave a demonstration of actual casting using both
a vacuum chamber and a pressure pot -- very interesting!

The last piece of the puzzle for me would be a clinic on how to create a 3-D
rubber mold. :-)

Tim O'Connor



------------------------------------
Posted by: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Re: USRA

Marty McGuirk
 

Dave Ellzy wrote:

"Yes I got some good suggestions from both of them. Tony T. said the SP didn't have anything similar to the accurail car. Eric H. said the accurail car is based on a Canadian car mostly. He sent some very handy information a site called trainlife.com. There is an article on the accurail boxcar. No one contacted me offline. I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly regarded among prototype modelers:-)
Dave"

I don't think anyone ever said anything of the sort. Your original question was about using the Accurail car to model USRA prototype cars, specifically the SP.
There are a few things some folks don't like about the Accurail car (the excessive wood grain as Bill mentioned and the molded on grabs/ladders another) but there's nothing wrong with the basic bones of the model. I have at least 6 or 8 of them on the layout - but I model a CN subsidiary in a slightly earlier era than you.
I'd surmise the feedback you received as "There are better options for modeling the USRA cars (and clones)." And that includes feedback from Dennis, who's rumored to know a thing or two about Accurail freight cars) who mentioned the CB&Q/C&S/FW&D cars as a possibility. But those aren't USRA cars, or even "clones."
Marty McGuirk


Re: Naperville

Tim O'Connor
 

I had an excellent time at Naperville, although there were far fewer
models than in years past. And frankly, the display room sucks because
the lighting is so poor in there! I hope next year's RPM meet moves to
a better location. And I hope more people (especially post-1960 modelers)
show up with models. (No, I didn't bring any this year.)

The clinics where I learned the most were by Jack Burgess and Tom Madden.
Jack gave an excellent talk on using free CAD software to create designs
for 3-D parts. This is something any of us can do! And Tom Madden offered
his expert advice on using 3-D design to create MASTERS for resin parts,
which holds great promise for creation of more excellent resin freight car
models. Finally Aaron Gjermundson gave a demonstration of actual casting
using both a vacuum chamber and a pressure pot -- very interesting!

The last piece of the puzzle for me would be a clinic on how to create a
3-D rubber mold. :-)

Tim O'Connor


Re: USRA

Armand Premo
 


Which begs the question;How many double sheathed cars were still around in the 50s? Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
To: stmfc
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] USRA

 

David,

There are a couple things to understand about the Accurail or even the Tichy
USRA box car models.

First, I thought you mentioned a late 1950s era for your focus. A ruling set for
January 1, 1953 banned freight cars with the older K brake systems from
interchange. This affected lots of freight cars built before 1930 that had not
been upgraded with the AB brake system. Many railroads scrapped the older
equipment or moved it to maintenance service.

Second, in terms of sheer numbers, the prototypes of the USRA single sheathed
cars and those that followed a similar design (whether the Canadian cars the
Accurail model reflects or other 1920s cars) were a small percentage of the
North American box car fleet, even when new. There were 25,000 USRA single
sheathed box cars built and assigned by the USRA. Even if that figure is doubled
with all the similar cars that came afterwards, I estimate the overall quantity
is not even 10% of the 1920s North American box car fleet. If we look at your
later era and take equipment retirement and rebuilding into different looking
cars as factors, then that percentage is probably less that 3%.

Third, railroads had been updating their freight car fleet with steel sheathed
box cars since the late 1930s. Marty mentioned the CN numbers in another post.
After WW2, the single and double-sheathed box car fleets began dwindling as
newer steel sheathed cars came into service. The newer cars had greater cubic
capacity and required less maintenance. If you review yard images from the
mid-1950s, wood sheathed box cars are less numerous than in a similar image
taken a decade previous.

I like the Accurail models. I model 1926 and have a few prototypes that can be
done with some work on the Accurail shell. I don't plan to use more than five
but these will not look alike as one will have a different roof and underframe,
and at least one will have an extra half door added for automobile hauling
service. Currently here are several in use on my Wheeling Freight Terminal as
they are great for the monthly op sessions and to hold a spot for era-specific
freight cars that come off the bench and through the paint shop.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/

> On October 27, 2015 at 7:13 AM "david ellzey davidellzey1@... [STMFC]"
> >
>
> Yes I got some good suggestions from both of them. Tony T. said the SP didn't
> have anything similar to the accurail car. Eric H. said the accurail car is
> based on a Canadian car mostly. He sent some very handy information a site
> called trainlife.com. There is an article on the accurail boxcar. No one
> contacted me offline. I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly
> regarded among prototype modelers:-)Dave
>   From: "'paul.doggett2472' paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC]"
>
> To: STMFC@...
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 4:13 AM
> Subject: [STMFC] USRA
>
>   I see you got some suggestions from Tony Thompson and Eric Hannsman they
> are both very knowledgeable did anyone contact you off line?.Paul 
>

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: USRA & Accurail 8-panel car

david ellzey
 

That's just the response that I was trying to elicit from my statement. The Accurail single sheathed boxcar is a beautiful model. I was hoping that it was closely based on several prototypes that could be kitbashed into excellent models.
Dave
 


From: "fgexbill@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] USRA & Accurail 8-panel car

 
Regarding your statement "I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly regarded among prototype modelers:-)"  I think that is an overly brood statement. I have used it to build four different models that I consider good models. To me the issue it is that not good for every 8-panel SS car with Z-bar bracing as some would seem to like it to be. I have also ripped its excellent Hutchins roof off the body and used it on several resin kits as it is the best around in any media.

I do wish the sheathing was not so distressed but that has not kept me from using it however.

Bill Welch



Re: Accurail O.B. boxcars as USRA design cars

david ellzey
 

That's the answer I am looking for. The Accurail car is mostly based on the USRA clones. CB&Q/FW&D would be a good railroad to mode. Thanks for sharing that info Dennis.
Dave
 


From: "destorzek@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Accurail O.B. boxcars as USRA design cars

 



---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Let me clarify that last email, I meant slim chance of Canadian cars down here on the T&NO.
Dave
===============

I think the point you are missing is that while USRA cars had custom designed pressed "hat section" side posts, the Accurail kit models the similar cars that used structural Z section posts. The argument of the designers of the USRA car was that the pressed posts were a more efficient use of steel. The objection of many railroads was that they wanted cars that could be repaired with commonly available material. Both are valid arguments, and different railroads bought different cars because of it.

While the Accurail model was developed from drawings of a Canadian car, it is similar in dimensions and details to a lot of cars owned by the Burlington; also their C&S and FW&D subsidiaries. I suspect FW&D cars were pretty common in T&NO territory.

Dennis Storzek







Re: Naperville

Clark Propst
 

> Biggest news is Mike Scribbe taking over.

That would be "Skibbe" for those taking notes at home.

Tony Thompson
 
Oops! Don’t think Mike’s on this list.
 
Had an extra great time myself.

Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Accurail O.B. boxcars as USRA design cars

david ellzey
 

That is a VERY comprehensive list of CN boxcar info. Your insight on Canadian cars in the deep south is very interesting. Thanks for all the information.
Dave
 


From: "mjmcguirk@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 7:56 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Accurail O.B. boxcars as USRA design cars

 
For anything you've ever wanted to know about CN steam-era boxcars see -


Dave,

While I acknowledge CN cars would have likely to be seen less frequently on the T&NO than, say, the GN or Maine Central, the fact is the CN (and CP) represented a very large percentage of the North American boxcar fleet - so many that it's hard to imagine not having one or two show up on a railroad, even in the deep south.

Search the list archives for never-ending discussions of "boxcar percentages" and "freight car fleet percentages" and similar terms and you'll see how much time and effort has been expended on statistical research and sheer speculation on this topic.

So if you include one or two CN cars in your car fleet no one vaguely familiar with steam era freight car distribution would bat an eye. But the cars represented by the Accurail cars are not a terribly large percentage of the CN car fleet, meaning that if you want to have one or two Canadian National cars I don't think either of them should be the Accurail car, especially if you're modeling any time after 1940 or so.
CN had the single largest fleet of 40'-6" 10-panel steel cars built to the "1937 AAR" design (with some of them having unique variations of ends and roofs.)
If you wanted to have one or two representative CN cars for a late steam era/transition era road those would be the ones I'd suggest.

Marty




Re: USRA

Eric Hansmann
 

David,

There are a couple things to understand about the Accurail or even the Tichy
USRA box car models.

First, I thought you mentioned a late 1950s era for your focus. A ruling set for
January 1, 1953 banned freight cars with the older K brake systems from
interchange. This affected lots of freight cars built before 1930 that had not
been upgraded with the AB brake system. Many railroads scrapped the older
equipment or moved it to maintenance service.

Second, in terms of sheer numbers, the prototypes of the USRA single sheathed
cars and those that followed a similar design (whether the Canadian cars the
Accurail model reflects or other 1920s cars) were a small percentage of the
North American box car fleet, even when new. There were 25,000 USRA single
sheathed box cars built and assigned by the USRA. Even if that figure is doubled
with all the similar cars that came afterwards, I estimate the overall quantity
is not even 10% of the 1920s North American box car fleet. If we look at your
later era and take equipment retirement and rebuilding into different looking
cars as factors, then that percentage is probably less that 3%.

Third, railroads had been updating their freight car fleet with steel sheathed
box cars since the late 1930s. Marty mentioned the CN numbers in another post.
After WW2, the single and double-sheathed box car fleets began dwindling as
newer steel sheathed cars came into service. The newer cars had greater cubic
capacity and required less maintenance. If you review yard images from the
mid-1950s, wood sheathed box cars are less numerous than in a similar image
taken a decade previous.

I like the Accurail models. I model 1926 and have a few prototypes that can be
done with some work on the Accurail shell. I don't plan to use more than five
but these will not look alike as one will have a different roof and underframe,
and at least one will have an extra half door added for automobile hauling
service. Currently here are several in use on my Wheeling Freight Terminal as
they are great for the monthly op sessions and to hold a spot for era-specific
freight cars that come off the bench and through the paint shop.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/

On October 27, 2015 at 7:13 AM "david ellzey davidellzey1@... [STMFC]"
<STMFC@...> wrote:


Yes I got some good suggestions from both of them. Tony T. said the SP didn't
have anything similar to the accurail car. Eric H. said the accurail car is
based on a Canadian car mostly. He sent some very handy information a site
called trainlife.com. There is an article on the accurail boxcar. No one
contacted me offline. I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly
regarded among prototype modelers:-)Dave
  From: "'paul.doggett2472' paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC]"
<STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 4:13 AM
Subject: [STMFC] USRA

  I see you got some suggestions from Tony Thompson and Eric Hannsman they
are both very knowledgeable did anyone contact you off line?.Paul 


Re: USRA & Accurail 8-panel car

Bill Welch
 

Regarding your statement "I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly regarded among prototype modelers:-)"  I think that is an overly brood statement. I have used it to build four different models that I consider good models. To me the issue it is that not good for every 8-panel SS car with Z-bar bracing as some would seem to like it to be. I have also ripped its excellent Hutchins roof off the body and used it on several resin kits as it is the best around in any media.

I do wish the sheathing was not so distressed but that has not kept me from using it however.

Bill Welch


Re: Accurail O.B. boxcars as USRA design cars

destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <davidellzey1@...> wrote :

Let me clarify that last email, I meant slim chance of Canadian cars down here on the T&NO.
Dave
===============

I think the point you are missing is that while USRA cars had custom designed pressed "hat section" side posts, the Accurail kit models the similar cars that used structural Z section posts. The argument of the designers of the USRA car was that the pressed posts were a more efficient use of steel. The objection of many railroads was that they wanted cars that could be repaired with commonly available material. Both are valid arguments, and different railroads bought different cars because of it.

While the Accurail model was developed from drawings of a Canadian car, it is similar in dimensions and details to a lot of cars owned by the Burlington; also their C&S and FW&D subsidiaries. I suspect FW&D cars were pretty common in T&NO territory.

Dennis Storzek





Re: USRA

david ellzey
 

Yes I got some good suggestions from both of them. Tony T. said the SP didn't have anything similar to the accurail car. Eric H. said the accurail car is based on a Canadian car mostly. He sent some very handy information a site called trainlife.com. There is an article on the accurail boxcar. No one contacted me offline. I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly regarded among prototype modelers:-)
Dave
 


From: "'paul.doggett2472' paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 4:13 AM
Subject: [STMFC] USRA

 
I see you got some suggestions from Tony Thompson and Eric Hannsman they are both very knowledgeable did anyone contact you off line?.
Paul 




Sent from Samsung mobile



Re: Accurail O.B. boxcars as USRA design cars

Marty McGuirk
 

For anything you've ever wanted to know about CN steam-era boxcars see -


Canadian National Railways


Dave,


While I acknowledge CN cars would have likely to be seen less frequently on the T&NO than, say, the GN or Maine Central, the fact is the CN (and CP) represented a very large percentage of the North American boxcar fleet - so many that it's hard to imagine not having one or two show up on a railroad, even in the deep south.


Search the list archives for never-ending discussions of "boxcar percentages" and "freight car fleet percentages" and similar terms and you'll see how much time and effort has been expended on statistical research and sheer speculation on this topic.


So if you include one or two CN cars in your car fleet no one vaguely familiar with steam era freight car distribution would bat an eye. But the cars represented by the Accurail cars are not a terribly large percentage of the CN car fleet, meaning that if you want to have one or two Canadian National cars I don't think either of them should be the Accurail car, especially if you're modeling any time after 1940 or so.

CN had the single largest fleet of 40'-6" 10-panel steel cars built to the "1937 AAR" design (with some of them having unique variations of ends and roofs.)

If you wanted to have one or two representative CN cars for a late steam era/transition era road those would be the ones I'd suggest.


Marty



USRA

paul.doggett2472 <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

I see you got some suggestions from Tony Thompson and Eric Hannsman they are both very knowledgeable did anyone contact you off line?.
Paul 




Sent from Samsung mobile

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