Date   

Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

I'm getting ready to do several "flat cars with lumber loads on them"
and am having trouble finding images of actual loaded cars taken in
the transition era.
I model primarily "the railroads of the West Coast" - GN, SP&S, ATSF,
SP, etc. and one of the layouts I contribute to has a very nice (contest
winning) mill that ships out loads.

I know that most lumber shipped in the era was done in box/house
cars ... but I also know that during better weather months there were
loads of lumber shipped on flat cars - and I want to do a few of those.
I also understand that the preponderance of lumber shipped on flat
cars was for the larger dimensions.
I've found sites that either have a lot of pics of -models- of flat cars
with lumber loads (thanks for those, Tony!) ... or ... just a few pics of
actual prototype loads. (There are many more pictures available for
the later decades - but I'm finding very few for the transition era.)

I want to "get it right" (correct/believable). So my questions are:

1) Can you point me to pictures of actual loaded flat cars (Transition
Era prototypes please!)? My google searches didn't seem to yield
what I was looking for ...

2) What products/methods are you using to create your lumber
loads?
- Jim B.


Re: Requesting your paint failure efforts

Guy Wilber
 




On Dec 18, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Eric Hansmann eric@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Resin Car Works would like to feature your work on the RCW blog. With the current discussion regarding paint failure on galvanized roofs, we want to use the blog as a place to post a number of models with this weathering aspect. Think of it as a virtual RPM model display focused on how people create that paint failure effect.

If you are interested, please send two or three lines describing the technique used to produce the effect on your model.

Photos are critical for the presentation. We can use a JPG image file with a minimum 2000 pixel width at 72 dpi. We can always work with larger files but anything smaller than these parameters can present challenges. Send two or three images of your model and please take your photos with plenty of light on the subject.

Your submission can be sent to either of these email addresses:
rcw2 at resincarworks.com
eric at hansmanns.org

Please replace 'at' and the spaces on each side of the word wit h the @ symbol to make these valid email addresses.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

RCW web guy


Requesting your paint failure efforts

Eric Hansmann
 

Resin Car Works would like to feature your work on the RCW blog. With the current discussion regarding paint failure on galvanized roofs, we want to use the blog as a place to post a number of models with this weathering aspect. Think of it as a virtual RPM model display focused on how people create that paint failure effect.

If you are interested, please send two or three lines describing the technique used to produce the effect on your model.

Photos are critical for the presentation. We can use a JPG image file with a minimum 2000 pixel width at 72 dpi. We can always work with larger files but anything smaller than these parameters can present challenges. Send two or three images of your model and please take your photos with plenty of light on the subject.

Your submission can be sent to either of these email addresses:
rcw2 at resincarworks.com
eric at hansmanns.org

Please replace 'at' and the spaces on each side of the word with the @ symbol to make these valid email addresses.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

RCW web guy


Re: Galvanized Paneled Roofs and Modeling Peeling Paint

destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <golden1014@...> wrote :

Yes, it's my understanding (because Ed has told me this a thousand times) that the seam caps were not galvanized so they would hold paint better.

============

First I've heard that. The whole roof would hold paint better if it weren't galvanized... but the purpose of galvanizing was to make the steel last, whether it was painted or not. If the caps were not galvanized, they'd be prone to rust out from water trapped between the caps and sheets, and rust out from behind the paint like a modern day automobile. I wonder if the caps were formed from steel sheet that was galvanized on one side only. Seems like a rather deep draw to be cold formed, though. Wish there was some SRECo. literature that explained the production of their roof system.


Dennis Storzek


Re: Galvanized Paneled Roofs and Modeling Peeling Paint

golden1014
 

Hi Bill,


I have used this technique on a few cars and I like the effect.  I don't have any photos available right now, unfortunately. 


I tried it on six roofs at once and I was satisfied with two of the six attempts.  I tried a few with table salt (small granules) and a few with sea salt (larger granules); the table salt provided a much better effect.  The best color combination for the undercoat turned out to be a mixture of light gray with ~20% Testors aluminum mixed in.  Once the salt was removed I painted the seam caps with the original roof color and then weathered the whole roof assembly again with a little black powder to represent soot and dirt.  The addition of a weathered running board really adds to the contrast and overall effect.


Yes, it's my understanding (because Ed has told me this a thousand times) that the seam caps were not galvanized so they would hold paint better.  IMO the artist's objective here is subtle color contrast--contrast between the original roof color, the exposed galvanized surface, the weathered running boards, and the soot/grime overlay--all gently blended together.  


John Golden

Albersbach, DE


Re: Galvanized Paneled Roofs and Modeling Peeling Paint

Charles Peck
 



​Or just maybe the old red lead, iron ore and linseed oil really is a superior paint formula after all. 
Chuck Peck in FL​

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:23 AM, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 
​  
I've often wondered why steam era photos show few bare or patchy roofs. It may be that the roofs became dirty so quickly, with the locomotives putting out literally tons of particulates and streaming back over the train, that what we are seeing isn't paint at all, but dirt, and dirt can cover raw galvanized as well as paint.

The change to patchy looking roofs seems to coincide with the general change in motive power.

Dennis Storzek



Re: Galvanized Paneled Roofs and Modeling Peeling Paint

caboose9792@...
 

 
 
In a message dated 12/18/2015 7:23:23 A.M. Central Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
Pre-coating the seam caps wouldn't work, unless the coating could hold up to the heat of hot riveting, which zinc will. For the same reason, the rivets themselves can't be galvanized, as the zinc coating would burn off while the rivets were in the rivet furnace. So, unless the railroad didn't mind streaks of rust forming under each seam cap, at least the riveted portion needed to be painted or covered with car cement.

I've often wondered why steam era photos show few bare or patchy roofs. It may be that the roofs became dirty so quickly, with the locomotives putting out literally tons of particulates and streaming back over the train, that what we are seeing isn't paint at all, but dirt, and dirt can cover raw galvanized as well as paint.

The change to patchy looking roofs seems to coincide with the general change in motive power.

Dennis Storzek
I have to agree with you Dennis, if somebody had found a way to make paint stick to a galvanized roof or any other galvanized surface they would have certainly let it be known. Also the galvanizing was not exceptionally thick ether, and those same flat expanses mentioned in your earlier post would lose their coating as did any sharp bends. Furthermore, Those particles streaming back along the train were also notable for being both abrasive and corrosive and coming out of nearly every home business and factory in the country.
 
"Years ago someone, Richard I think, cautioned me about doing to much with the peeling paint off galvanized roofs on my steam era cars. He mentioned that yard photos of the steam era don't show the peeling paint effect with the same regularity as the modern era." its also notable Richard never said the roofs were well painted or painted at all, he just said it didn't show the peeling paint effect.
 
Mark Rickert
 
 


Re: Galvanized Paneled Roofs and Modeling Peeling Paint

destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote :


Right -- I've always thought the seam caps were either enameled (dipped in
paint and baked) or dipped in some kind of persistent car cement, because even
on extremely peeled roofs the seam caps almost always look still coated. Only
in a few photos of unpainted, galvanized roofs are the seam caps the same
color as the panels.

Tim O'
=============
Pre-coating the seam caps wouldn't work, unless the coating could hold up to the heat of hot riveting, which zinc will. For the same reason, the rivets themselves can't be galvanized, as the zinc coating would burn off while the rivets were in the rivet furnace. So, unless the railroad didn't mind streaks of rust forming under each seam cap, at least the riveted portion needed to be painted or covered with car cement.

I've often wondered why steam era photos show few bare or patchy roofs. It may be that the roofs became dirty so quickly, with the locomotives putting out literally tons of particulates and streaming back over the train, that what we are seeing isn't paint at all, but dirt, and dirt can cover raw galvanized as well as paint.

The change to patchy looking roofs seems to coincide with the general change in motive power.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Express Reefers?

Charlie Vlk
 

Typically express reefers in passenger service did not have dimensional data.   
Charlie Vlk




On Dec 17, 2015, at 5:10 PM, "Bob Werre bob@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

First, I'm hoping this still fits the designation of a freight car!

I've recently decided to do some rebuilding of some acquired models.
Since I model in S scale when a complete award winning passenger train
became available I jumped on it despite being only generally correct for
my railroad. The train was built with mid 60's era techniques, while
the cars themselves have a B & M prototype of maroon cars. It's
lettering was for the owner private road. It also came with a Hoods
milk reefer, which I didn't need, later sold.

A couple of years ago, I also acquired a wooden express reefer (think
Ambroid) but the silk screened sides were totally incorrect so I removed
the scribed sides. Meanwhile I had acquired an set of silk screened
sides for a SOO Line express reefer in Pullman green with gold leaf type
lettering. I'm in the process of adding those sides and updating the
former applied detail parts like ladders and grabs. I noticed that
there is no dimensional data on these sides. I have three additional
express reefers that I built over 40 years ago that do have typical
freight car data as part of those sides. So I also checked my spare
decal sets and find none of the passenger car sets from Champ or anybody
else contain any of this data.

As it is now, the sides contain a road # and the word 'Refrigerator' on
one side and 'Railway Express Agency' on the other side of the doors.
The SOO line designation runs along the top above the doors. Overall
the car looks very sparse. However, I've seen photos of of several
models and so far none have much more than what I have.

So my question is: was this data optional? or are my vintage express
cars that I built have the lettering incorrect. Since the lettering is
in gold leaf, would any additional lettering be the same color? My
thoughts might be that they may have used a cheaper method with the
smaller data that was less advertising in nature.

Thanks for any help.

Bob Werre
BobWphoto.com


Re: Express Reefers?

Tony Thompson
 

Chuck Peck wrote:

 
Bob, the REA cars were not ordinarily available for direct use by shippers but were for use BY REA.  REA was
a consortium of various railroads, not exactly a customer in the sense of most shippers. 

       Well, the shipper called the local railroad agent, who arranged for an REA car to be delivered by the railroad for the shipper's use. In some places, there was a separate REA office, but REA did not move cars itself, but would have had to ask the local railroad to do so; and the waybill would be made out by the railroad's agent. And remember, REA also operated a large pool of express cars, composed of a number of other owners' cars, including Santa Fe and PFE. When a shipper needed an express reefer, they did not know if they would get an REA car or another owner's car from the pool. But all operated the same way under REA direction.

As I have been told, REA was charged by the carmile, not by weight. Thus, as long as REA knew the weight, there was no need for the hauling railroad to weigh the car.  

      This is a confusing statement. REA was PAID by the car-mile, loaded or empty. That is how they received money to operate, including buying and maintaining the car fleet (some non-REA car owners did maintenance on their own cars). They were paid by the railroads over which the car moved. And if the car was part of the REA pool, a payment was then due from REA to the owner of that car.
       The handling railroads were paid from the freight bill, which was by weight or tariff category, and icing charges were additional. So the shipper (or consignee) paid a freight bill to one of the railroads involved, which in turn paid REA for car mileage, and also paid any icing stations involved, for the icing charges, all of which had to come out of the freight bill.
        You are right, Chuck, it was complicated.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Express Reefers?

Tony Thompson
 

Chuck Peck wrote:

 
Bob, the REA cars were not ordinarily available for direct use by shippers but were for use BY REA.  REA was
a consortium of various railroads, not exactly a customer in the sense of most shippers. 

       Well, the shipper called the local railroad agent, who arranged for an REA car to be delivered by the railroad for the shipper's use. In some places, there was a separate REA office, but REA did not move cars itself, but would have had to ask the local railroad to do so; and the waybill would be made out by the railroad's agent. And remember, REA also operated a large pool of express cars, composed of a number of other owners' cars, including Santa Fe and PFE. When a shipper needed an express reefer, they did not know if they would get an REA car or another owner's car from the pool. But all operated the same way under REA direction.

As I have been told, REA was charged by the carmile, not by weight. Thus, as long as REA knew the weight, there was no need for the hauling railroad to weigh the car.  

      This is a confusing statement. REA was PAID by the car-mile, loaded or empty. That is how they received money to operate, including buying and maintaining the car fleet (some non-REA car owners did maintenance on their own cars). They were paid by the railroads over which the car moved. And if the car was part of the REA pool, a payment was then due from REA to the owner of that car.
       The handling railroads were paid from the freight bill, which was by weight or tariff category, and icing charges were additional. So the shipper (or consignee) paid a freight bill to one of the railroads involved, which in turn paid REA for car mileage, and also paid any icing stations involved, for the icing charges, all of which had to come out of the freight bill.
        You are right, Chuck, it was complicated.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Express Reefers?

Charles Peck
 

Bob, the REA cars were not ordinarily available for direct use by shippers but were for use BY REA.  REA was
a consortium of various railroads, not exactly a customer in the sense of most shippers.  As I have been told, REA
was charged by the carmile, not by weight. Thus, as long as REA knew the weight, there was no need for the hauling
railroad to weigh the car.  The REA cars most frequently were hauled in passenger trains for the fastest service.
Cargos might include such perishables as fresh seafood and flowers.  To see one in a freight train often meant
empty deadhead move or bad order. 
Chuck Peck in FL

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 6:10 PM, Bob Werre bob@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

First, I'm hoping this still fits the designation of a freight car!

I've recently decided to do some rebuilding of some acquired models.
Since I model in S scale when a complete award winning passenger train
became available I jumped on it despite being only generally correct for
my railroad. The train was built with mid 60's era techniques, while
the cars themselves have a B & M prototype of maroon cars. It's
lettering was for the owner private road. It also came with a Hoods
milk reefer, which I didn't need, later sold.

A couple of years ago, I also acquired a wooden express reefer (think
Ambroid) but the silk screened sides were totally incorrect so I removed
the scribed sides. Meanwhile I had acquired an set of silk screened
sides for a SOO Line express reefer in Pullman green with gold leaf type
lettering. I'm in the process of adding those sides and updating the
former applied detail parts like ladders and grabs. I noticed that
there is no dimensional data on these sides. I have three additional
express reefers that I built over 40 years ago that do have typical
freight car data as part of those sides. So I also checked my spare
decal sets and find none of the passenger car sets from Champ or anybody
else contain any of this data.

As it is now, the sides contain a road # and the word 'Refrigerator' on
one side and 'Railway Express Agency' on the other side of the doors.
The SOO line designation runs along the top above the doors. Overall
the car looks very sparse. However, I've seen photos of of several
models and so far none have much more than what I have.

So my question is: was this data optional? or are my vintage express
cars that I built have the lettering incorrect. Since the lettering is
in gold leaf, would any additional lettering be the same color? My
thoughts might be that they may have used a cheaper method with the
smaller data that was less advertising in nature.

Thanks for any help.

Bob Werre
BobWphoto.com



Re: Express Reefers?

Steve SANDIFER
 

Hey Bob, your neighbor here.

The express reefer photos I have seen generally have "Railway Express Agency", a number or "REX" and number, and "refrigerator" on them. They do not have dimensional data or weight limit data as on a traditional house car.

 

__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 5:10 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Express Reefers?

 

 

First, I'm hoping this still fits the designation of a freight car!

I've recently decided to do some rebuilding of some acquired models.
Since I model in S scale when a complete award winning passenger train
became available I jumped on it despite being only generally correct for
my railroad. The train was built with mid 60's era techniques, while
the cars themselves have a B & M prototype of maroon cars. It's
lettering was for the owner private road. It also came with a Hoods
milk reefer, which I didn't need, later sold.

A couple of years ago, I also acquired a wooden express reefer (think
Ambroid) but the silk screened sides were totally incorrect so I removed
the scribed sides. Meanwhile I had acquired an set of silk screened
sides for a SOO Line express reefer in Pullman green with gold leaf type
lettering. I'm in the process of adding those sides and updating the
former applied detail parts like ladders and grabs. I noticed that
there is no dimensional data on these sides. I have three additional
express reefers that I built over 40 years ago that do have typical
freight car data as part of those sides. So I also checked my spare
decal sets and find none of the passenger car sets from Champ or anybody
else contain any of this data.

As it is now, the sides contain a road # and the word 'Refrigerator' on
one side and 'Railway Express Agency' on the other side of the doors.
The SOO line designation runs along the top above the doors. Overall
the car looks very sparse. However, I've seen photos of of several
models and so far none have much more than what I have.

So my question is: was this data optional? or are my vintage express
cars that I built have the lettering incorrect. Since the lettering is
in gold leaf, would any additional lettering be the same color? My
thoughts might be that they may have used a cheaper method with the
smaller data that was less advertising in nature.

Thanks for any help.

Bob Werre
BobWphoto.com


Re: Galvanized Paneled Roofs and Modeling Peeling Paint

Tim O'Connor
 


Right -- I've always thought the seam caps were either enameled (dipped in
paint and baked) or dipped in some kind of persistent car cement, because even
on extremely peeled roofs the seam caps almost always look still coated. Only
in a few photos of unpainted, galvanized roofs are the seam caps the same
color as the panels.

Tim O'


Ditto. And, all the parts of the roof were galvanized, except the rivets. The seam caps were typically coated with car cement because that's where the potential leaks were; both water creeping under the caps, and water leaking in around the rivets.

Even if they weren't coated with cement, the paint found more nooks and crannies between all the bends and rivets to adhere via the mechanical interface. The paint tended to pop first in the large flat expanses.

Dennis Storzek 


Re: Galvanized Paneled Roofs and Modeling Peeling Paint

Tim O'Connor
 

Bill Welch asked

 >> Is "roof ribs" the correct term?

SEAM CAPS

:-)

Tim


Re: Galvanized Paneled Roofs and Modeling Peeling Paint

Tony Thompson
 

Brian Carlson wrote:

 
Years ago someone, Richard I think, cautioned me about doing to much with the peeling paint off galvanized roofs on my steam era cars. He mentioned that yard photos of the steam era don't show the peeling paint effect with the same regularity as the modern era. I don't have as many photos as he did but I've taken his words to heart and have one one peeling paint roof and dozens that are very grimy. Just my thoughts. 

       Richard did make this point from time to time, and my examination of period photos, up to my modeling year of 1953, agrees entirely. Of course there were cars with roof paint failure, but not a lot, and few with the kind of severe failure one sees nowadays. I model accordingly.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Salt for peeling paint Galvanized Paneled Roofs

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Good Friends,

I'm sure most of you would never be caught dead on a narrow gauge site :~) , but Boulder Valley Models has a how-to page on using the salt technique: http://bouldervalleymodels.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=12&zenid=bb5pslom33eglnsi69qpn0u7h7

Maybe you will find their techniques useful

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 12/17/15 4:24 PM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

One of the modelers I have corresponded with said he has had the best results w/Kosher salt although he did not know why so I purchased some Morton's "Coarse Kosher Salt."


I have used a "Mask-It" product similar to rubber cement in the past. At the time I liked the result but in retrospect as I look at the models it looks like a flock of incontinent pigeons flew over the model. The contours of the margins of the galvanized areas look too smooth and the exposed galvanized area look too much like water spots. I am seeking a more irregular or jagged appearance.

I was not enthusiastic about the Hair Spray method until Andy mentioned using a Fiber Glass Brush to scratch the paint. It seems like this would also produce a jagged appearance. Since I have several IM roofs I will experiment with that also.

As too Brian's comment, although good shots high enough to see the roofs are very rare, I do have several photos showing the edges of roof where there is paint and no paint. Among my 500 or so models I have maybe 2-3 models with this effect. I have not done it in about 15 years so I decided with new knowledge and materials, I want to do it again on a couple of current builds if the experiments are promising.

Over on the Resin Builders Yahoo Group people have been very kind about the photo on my weathered wood running board so I am going to write an RCW Blog item on modeling a wood running board and the Rock Salt and now the Hair Spray methods to model peeling paint.

Bill Welch


Re: Hairspray for peeling paint Galvanized Paneled Roofs

gtws00
 

I just posted a photo of my 1st attempt at using the salt method on a 40 ft Milwaukee Road Ribside car. I painted the roof aluminum, let dry over night. I Misted with water and sprinkled on the Sea Salt, let dry about 60 minutes and top coated with Model Master Oxide Red acrylic. I waited for 2 hours for it to dry and then used a flat brush about 3/16 inch wide with short bristles to brush off the salt. I found that I needed to dip the tip of the brush in water to help wash some of it off. Just a small amount of water was needed.This method is similar to what Ted Culotta used in his recent  Prototype Railroad Profile Number 2 from Speedwich Media.
 
George Toman


Express Reefers?

Bob Werre
 

First, I'm hoping this still fits the designation of a freight car!

I've recently decided to do some rebuilding of some acquired models. Since I model in S scale when a complete award winning passenger train became available I jumped on it despite being only generally correct for my railroad. The train was built with mid 60's era techniques, while the cars themselves have a B & M prototype of maroon cars. It's lettering was for the owner private road. It also came with a Hoods milk reefer, which I didn't need, later sold.

A couple of years ago, I also acquired a wooden express reefer (think Ambroid) but the silk screened sides were totally incorrect so I removed the scribed sides. Meanwhile I had acquired an set of silk screened sides for a SOO Line express reefer in Pullman green with gold leaf type lettering. I'm in the process of adding those sides and updating the former applied detail parts like ladders and grabs. I noticed that there is no dimensional data on these sides. I have three additional express reefers that I built over 40 years ago that do have typical freight car data as part of those sides. So I also checked my spare decal sets and find none of the passenger car sets from Champ or anybody else contain any of this data.

As it is now, the sides contain a road # and the word 'Refrigerator' on one side and 'Railway Express Agency' on the other side of the doors. The SOO line designation runs along the top above the doors. Overall the car looks very sparse. However, I've seen photos of of several models and so far none have much more than what I have.

So my question is: was this data optional? or are my vintage express cars that I built have the lettering incorrect. Since the lettering is in gold leaf, would any additional lettering be the same color? My thoughts might be that they may have used a cheaper method with the smaller data that was less advertising in nature.

Thanks for any help.

Bob Werre
BobWphoto.com


Re: Hairspray for peeling paint Galvanized Paneled Roofs

Bill Welch
 

One of the modelers I have corresponded with said he has had the best results w/Kosher salt although he did not know why so I purchased some Morton's "Coarse Kosher Salt."

I have used a "Mask-It" product similar to rubber cement in the past. At the time I liked the result but in retrospect as I look at the models it looks like a flock of incontinent pigeons flew over the model. The contours of the margins of the galvanized areas look too smooth and the exposed galvanized area look too much like water spots. I am seeking a more irregular or jagged appearance.

I was not enthusiastic about the Hair Spray method until Andy mentioned using a Fiber Glass Brush to scratch the paint. It seems like this would also produce a jagged appearance. Since I have several IM roofs I will experiment with that also.

As too Brian's comment, although good shots high enough to see the roofs are very rare, I do have several photos showing the edges of roof where there is paint and no paint. Among my 500 or so models I have maybe 2-3 models with this effect. I have not done it in about 15 years so I decided with new knowledge and materials, I want to do it again on a couple of current builds if the experiments are promising.

Over on the Resin Builders Yahoo Group people have been very kind about the photo on my weathered wood running board so I am going to write an RCW Blog item on modeling a wood running board and the Rock Salt and now the Hair Spray methods to model peeling paint.

Bill Welch

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