Date   

Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

roy wojahn
 

The freight cars shown on this site may not be steam era, but they appear beat up enough to be close.  Try;


picasaweb.google.com/109517272707102411928/MaterialService


thank you Bill Barber for the location.


Roy Wojahn



Re: Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

Greg Martin
 

Just to clarify this a bit...
 
Generally we call it SURFACED and ROUGH. Finished was a term that was often associated with finished goods such as siding, profiles or mouldings.
 
Surfaced was material that came from the saw mill went through a planner in the planning mill to a nominal size (dressed is a common term) , green or dried (both different dimensions) with a set of specifications that were met and when done correctly it was considered "on grade" and if not they were "off grade". These specifications were standards set by the American Lumber Standards or ALS in the U.S. The standards were very specific in many regards to meet a specific grade of lumber.
 
Rough was a term for dimensionally sawn/milled lumber with a rough or sized texture to a dimension close to full width and thickness. Rough sawn lumber can in all sizes from lath to timber.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 12/18/2015 3:22:56 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Garth Groff wrote:

 

If you have Tony's SP book volume 3, look on pages 213, 214, 225, and 249 for good shots of lumber loads on flat cars with bracing.

It is my understanding that the best quality lumber went into boxcars. While flat cars would have carried larger sizes, they also were used for lumber that was of lesser sizes but with a lower grade. All of the above photos seem to show this sort of load.


   Usually the distinction was "finished" vs "rough" lumber. The latter of course was unmilled and, as someone said, "splintery."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.s ignaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Lumber Loads in 1947

mwbauers
 

From the days before we had to Vandal proof everything.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Dec 19, 2015, at 12:30 PM, 'gary laakso' vasa0vasa@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Here are flat cars and a GN gondola hauling lumber in Ogden in 1947.:
 
 
 


Lumber Loads in 1947

gary laakso
 

Here are flat cars and a GN gondola hauling lumber in Ogden in 1947.:
 
 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 

Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Lumber Loads in the Transition Era
 
 

Hello my friends,
 
  FIRST - let me thank all of you who have replied/sent photos/etc.  I
DO appreciate the help.  Many of you have sent emails to me off
list and I want to thank those who have done that as well.
 
                                    ****
 
  As is often the case there are some follow up questions/topics for
further discussion ... and all of it revolves around the changes in
how open lumber loads looked as time passed.
  Here are -my- conclusions/observations (for which I'm looking for
confirmation):

 
1) In the 40's and even in the early 50's almost all of the loads
      seem to all be the result of hand stacking.  By that I mean
      that the boards/beams have been put up "one stick at a time"
      rather than being stacked by any machine.  And both ends
      of the stack are "ragged" (not lined up at all).

  2) In addition to that - the earlier the picture the more likely it is
      that there was a mixture of dimensions all pretty much just
      piled up ... the 4x6s were not stacked with each other etc.
        And some of those ragged end stacks seems to be
      "intentional" in that we see some pictures that show "every
      other board" that is stacked longer/shorter and where the
      ones that are short are all lined up with each other (more or
      less). 

  3) In the 50's we start to see more stacks that have just one
      end of each stack that is 'more or less' lined up.  Still obviously
      stacked one board/piece at a time ... but with some semblance
      of one end of the stack looking "square" (but only sort of).

  4) And there are frequent examples of loads in gondolas as
      well as on flat cars.  Also showing the same lack of the
      ends being 'square' earlier and going towards one end being
      more or less square - but still obviously hand stacked.
         But as time passes the use of gondolas for lumber tapers
      off.

  5) Almost all of the cars - both flats and gons have two
      vertical 4x4s (other sizes?) outside of each stack, and then
      an open space in the middle of the car with two more verticals.
      And finally and the tops of these verticals are tied together with
      cross braces of approximately the same dimension.

  6) What I also seem to be seeing is that there is a general
      increase of the likelihood that 'finished' lumber was shipped
      in open loads (as time passes).

  7) One last conclusion - it would appear that the lumber was
      also -unloaded- one piece of material at a time and by hand.
      It may have been to/from a truck or the forks of a loader
      but it was stacked onto and off of the RR car one stick at
      a time.  (Essentially similar to how box cars were loaded.)

  8) It is also of interest to me that it appears that the loads
      generated in the West were not significantly different from
      those generated in the East ... and that it didn't really matter
      a whole lot which RR the load was originated on.  The entire
      industry (nation wide) appears to have progressed along the
      same lines and more or less at the same pace.

        I'm going to go past the end date of this list to make some
      further observations - because they are important differences
      in order to distinguish what is 'right'/'wrong' for doing loads
      for cars that ARE correct for our era.
         Please ignore/skip the rest of this if you are so firmly
      locked into the STMFC era that you "don't want to hear it".  *G*
  
  a) In the 60's we start to see some loads that are obviously
      loaded using a fork lift.  Not only are these 'bundled' but
      both ends of the load are square and as we get to the late
      60's the loads tend to be 'all of one (or at most 2 or 3) size
      of lumber.
         In addition we see the introduction of metal banding of
      the sections of the loads.  And as time passes we see the
      use of cardboard to reduce the damage that the metal bands
      can cause at the corners.

  b) In the 70's we start to see loads being covered with tarps, etc.
      And in this same time frame we start to see 'load specific' cars
      such as the center beams introduced.

  c) In the 80's we start to see what are known as "shed packs"
      where the entire package of the individual parts of the load
      are wrapped in plastic (think "Jaeger loads").

                                 ****

  Do I have it "mostly right"?  Are there some errors or fine tuning
to the above that you would like to correct/add?

                                  ****

  It is interesting to think about the amount of -labor- involved in
loading and unloading lumber in the STMFC era!  It would appear
that the lumber mills shipped lumber in quantity that was not
sorted by side (the way it came off the line?) and that the lumber
yards would sort the boards when they received them!  That's a
small army of laborers compared to how lumber is shipped today.
It isn't horribly surprising - I said it is "interesting". 
                                                                                   - Jim B.


Removing Lettering From Kadee Box Cars

Mike Bradley
 

Hello,

Is there anyone out there who has knowledge (first hand experience) in removing factory lettering from Kadee box cars without harming the body paint (color)?  I'd like to model a NH 40' box car in the #34000 series.  I contacted Kadee and there are presently no undec.7 ft. door box cars available.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You,
Mike Bradley


Re: Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Betz wrote:

 
      5) Almost all of the cars - both flats and gons have two 
      vertical 4x4s (other sizes?) outside of each stack, and then
      an open space in the middle of the car with two more verticals.
      And finally and the tops of these verticals are tied together with
      cross braces of approximately the same dimension. 


     Jim, there was an AAR loading diagram, which was regarded as close to mandatory, and it specified three, not two, side stakes per stack. Cross connections could be wire or smaller material than side stakes, and side stakes were sometimes saplings or poles, not dimension lumber.


  8) It is also of interest to me that it appears that the loads
      generated in the West were not significantly different from
      those generated in the East ... and that it didn't really matter
      a whole lot which RR the load was originated on.  The entire
      industry (nation wide) appears to have progressed along the
      same lines and more or less at the same pace.

      See previous comment. The ARA and AAR loading diagrams had been in force for many years prior to the 1950s.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

Jim Betz
 

Hello my friends,

  FIRST - let me thank all of you who have replied/sent photos/etc.  I
DO appreciate the help.  Many of you have sent emails to me off
list and I want to thank those who have done that as well.

                                    ****

  As is often the case there are some follow up questions/topics for
further discussion ... and all of it revolves around the changes in
how open lumber loads looked as time passed.
  Here are -my- conclusions/observations (for which I'm looking for 
confirmation):
 
 1) In the 40's and even in the early 50's almost all of the loads 
      seem to all be the result of hand stacking.  By that I mean
      that the boards/beams have been put up "one stick at a time"
      rather than being stacked by any machine.  And both ends
      of the stack are "ragged" (not lined up at all). 

  2) In addition to that - the earlier the picture the more likely it is
      that there was a mixture of dimensions all pretty much just
      piled up ... the 4x6s were not stacked with each other etc.
        And some of those ragged end stacks seems to be 
      "intentional" in that we see some pictures that show "every 
      other board" that is stacked longer/shorter and where the
      ones that are short are all lined up with each other (more or
      less).  

  3) In the 50's we start to see more stacks that have just one
      end of each stack that is 'more or less' lined up.  Still obviously
      stacked one board/piece at a time ... but with some semblance
      of one end of the stack looking "square" (but only sort of).

  4) And there are frequent examples of loads in gondolas as
      well as on flat cars.  Also showing the same lack of the
      ends being 'square' earlier and going towards one end being
      more or less square - but still obviously hand stacked.
         But as time passes the use of gondolas for lumber tapers
      off.

  5) Almost all of the cars - both flats and gons have two 
      vertical 4x4s (other sizes?) outside of each stack, and then
      an open space in the middle of the car with two more verticals.
      And finally and the tops of these verticals are tied together with
      cross braces of approximately the same dimension. 

  6) What I also seem to be seeing is that there is a general
      increase of the likelihood that 'finished' lumber was shipped
      in open loads (as time passes).

  7) One last conclusion - it would appear that the lumber was
      also -unloaded- one piece of material at a time and by hand.
      It may have been to/from a truck or the forks of a loader
      but it was stacked onto and off of the RR car one stick at
      a time.  (Essentially similar to how box cars were loaded.)

  8) It is also of interest to me that it appears that the loads
      generated in the West were not significantly different from
      those generated in the East ... and that it didn't really matter
      a whole lot which RR the load was originated on.  The entire
      industry (nation wide) appears to have progressed along the
      same lines and more or less at the same pace.

        I'm going to go past the end date of this list to make some
      further observations - because they are important differences
      in order to distinguish what is 'right'/'wrong' for doing loads
      for cars that ARE correct for our era.
         Please ignore/skip the rest of this if you are so firmly
      locked into the STMFC era that you "don't want to hear it".  *G*
   
  a) In the 60's we start to see some loads that are obviously
      loaded using a fork lift.  Not only are these 'bundled' but
      both ends of the load are square and as we get to the late
      60's the loads tend to be 'all of one (or at most 2 or 3) size
      of lumber.
         In addition we see the introduction of metal banding of
      the sections of the loads.  And as time passes we see the
      use of cardboard to reduce the damage that the metal bands
      can cause at the corners.

  b) In the 70's we start to see loads being covered with tarps, etc.
      And in this same time frame we start to see 'load specific' cars 
      such as the center beams introduced.

  c) In the 80's we start to see what are known as "shed packs"
      where the entire package of the individual parts of the load 
      are wrapped in plastic (think "Jaeger loads").

                                 ****

  Do I have it "mostly right"?  Are there some errors or fine tuning
to the above that you would like to correct/add?

                                  ****

  It is interesting to think about the amount of -labor- involved in
loading and unloading lumber in the STMFC era!  It would appear
that the lumber mills shipped lumber in quantity that was not
sorted by side (the way it came off the line?) and that the lumber
yards would sort the boards when they received them!  That's a
small army of laborers compared to how lumber is shipped today.
It isn't horribly surprising - I said it is "interesting".  
                                                                                   - Jim B.


Re: Detail Associates?

Tim O'Connor
 

CZ

methinks thou dost extrapolate from slightly different shades of
tan (quite common in DA packages -- also different shades of ink
printing on them) to some nefarious scheme to color code packages

I call both of those packages "tan"

and all this began when someone said DA never produced brass castings. :-)

Merry Christmas, Ho Ho Ho!

Tim O'

I think you're confused now Craig. All of my DA parts in brass & plastic
are in the same tan/brown color packages. Details West used several different
package colors for freight car parts, track parts, diesel detail parts, ...
I just checked and found DA brass, white metal, plastic and wire items all in
the same color packages.
Read it and weep, Tim :)

http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/grills/IMAG0754.jpg
http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/grills/IMAG0756.jpg

Craig Zeni
Cary NC


Re: Detail Associates?

tjcataldo
 

https://www.republiclocomotiveworks.com/  owns  you can buy from them

Detail Associates


On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Pierre Oliver pierre.oliver@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Anybody know what's happening at DA?
Roaring silence from emails I've sent.

--
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com




--
Thomas  j Cataldo


Re: Detail Associates?

Mark Drake <markstation01@...>
 

 And now we're worried about the color of the cardboard/paper package these items come in....

Mark L. Drake eBay ID member1108


Re: Detail Associates?

Craig Zeni
 

On Dec 18, 2015, at 6:14 PM, STMFC@... wrote:

4b. Re: Detail Associates?
Posted by: "Tim O'Connor" timboconnor@... cf5250
Date: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:14 pm ((PST))


I think you're confused now Craig. All of my DA parts in brass & plastic
are in the same tan/brown color packages. Details West used several different
package colors for freight car parts, track parts, diesel detail parts, ...
I just checked and found DA brass, white metal, plastic and wire items all in
the same color packages.
Read it and weep, Tim :)

http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/grills/IMAG0754.jpg
http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/grills/IMAG0756.jpg

Craig Zeni
Cary NC


Re: What Kind Of Wheels Are These?

al_brown03
 

Two different wrecks -- yipe -- confusion.

AL B.


Re: What Kind Of Wheels Are These?

Jack Mullen
 

Al, the photos of B&M 4005 on its side seem to be a different wreck, which the descriptive info identifies as at Somerville, MA 6-25,1928.

According to the title, the photo of the passenger train wreck with a set of paper wheels in the foreground is at Atlantic MA, which is on the New Haven . Assuming the location is correct, I checked ICC reports for NYNH&H accidents, finding a rear collision on Aug 4, 1915 that seems to fit what's seen in the photo. 

Here's a link to the ICC report.

The car on its side looks like a baggage car or combine (there's a sill step toward the middle of the side sill). The ICC report says the last car of the first train, a combine, was turned on its side.
As I recall our Steamed Leader declared that head-end cars are honorary freight cars, so maybe this is -barely- on topic.

Jack Mullen

 

 


looking for C&BT boxcar doors

D. Scott Chatfield
 

I need at least one and preferably three of C&BT's 7-foot Youngstown doors from their boxcar kits. Two that I had warped and shattered when I tried to flatten them. Can they still be purchased? Alternately, are Kadee's 7-foot Youngtowns direct replacements? Don't have any on hand to test.

Scott Chatfield


Re: Detail Associates?

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

I think you're confused now Craig. All of my DA parts in brass & plastic
are in the same tan/brown color packages.


No, Craig is correct. Initially DA's brass parts (which were made using their plastic parts as investments) came in nearly white packages, noticeably lighter than the tan cards used for the plastic parts.

Scott Chatfield


Re: What Kind Of Wheels Are These?

John
 

Composite wheels, yes.  Paper wheels, quite possibly but not necessarily.  The Allen paper wheel was perhaps the best known composite wheel and was often used under passenger cars because of its superior ride, but it wasn't the only composite wheel available in the early 20th century.  The Allen wheel is shown in the 1906 Car Builders Dictionary and so is the Paige Plate Wheel, a steel/cast iron composite.  The bolt pattern on the wheels in this photo is a closer match for that on the Paige wheel (fig. 5044) than for the Allen wheel.

John Bopp
Farmington Hills, MI

On Dec 18, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 


"Paper" wheels were in use for at least 25 years, and performed well.

There seems to be differences of opinion on the performance of "paper" wheels (really,
composite wheels)... but one thing everyone agrees on, they ride more quietly and
transmit less vibration. I found a technical article online that was a study of composite
railroad wheels conducted in 1991 -- the study found that the web thickness has to be
double that of steel to have the same lateral strength but otherwise they work fine.

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi758.htm
http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/dictionary/paperwheels.htm

I'm sure our resident physicist and metallurgist Tony T could speak to the virtues of steel
vs composites. :-)

Tim O'Connor



This is a link to a Leslie Jones image of a train wreck at Atlantic, MA. The date range for the image is a very broad 1917 to 1934.

https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:6682x694w

What caught my eye were the wheels. They appear to be riveted.

Can anyone provide some background on these wheels?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro


Re: What Kind Of Wheels Are These?

Tim O'Connor
 


"Paper" wheels were in use for at least 25 years, and performed well.

There seems to be differences of opinion on the performance of "paper" wheels (really,
composite wheels)... but one thing everyone agrees on, they ride more quietly and
transmit less vibration. I found a technical article online that was a study of composite
railroad wheels conducted in 1991 -- the study found that the web thickness has to be
double that of steel to have the same lateral strength but otherwise they work fine.

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi758.htm
http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/dictionary/paperwheels.htm

I'm sure our resident physicist and metallurgist Tony T could speak to the virtues of steel
vs composites. :-)

Tim O'Connor



This is a link to a Leslie Jones image of a train wreck at Atlantic, MA. The date range for the image is a very broad 1917 to 1934.

https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:6682x694w

What caught my eye were the wheels. They appear to be riveted.

Can anyone provide some background on these wheels?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro


Re: What Kind Of Wheels Are These?

al_brown03
 

The engine is 2-8-4 #4005, which was built in 1928-'29 (per Drury, "Guide to North American Steam Locomotives", revised edition): so the picture can be dated to 1928-34.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: What Kind Of Wheels Are These?

mwbauers
 

Actually, they are bolted together with restraining side plates…. not riveted.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Dec 18, 2015, at 8:22 PM, 'Jack Burgess'  wrote:

Could these be “paper wheels”….?

Jack Burgess

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] 
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 6:21 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] What Kind Of Wheels Are These?

This is a link to a Leslie Jones image of a train wreck at Atlantic, MA. The date range for the image is a very broad 1917 to 1934.

<https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:6682x694w> https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:6682x694w

What caught my eye were the wheels. They appear to be riveted.

Can anyone provide some background on these wheels?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro



Re: What Kind Of Wheels Are These?

mwbauers
 

Yes !!

They look exactly like them !

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Dec 18, 2015, at 8:22 PM, 'Jack Burgess'  wrote:

Could these be “paper wheels”….?

Jack Burgess

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] 
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 6:21 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] What Kind Of Wheels Are These?

This is a link to a Leslie Jones image of a train wreck at Atlantic, MA. The date range for the image is a very broad 1917 to 1934.

<https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:6682x694w> https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:6682x694w

What caught my eye were the wheels. They appear to be riveted.

Can anyone provide some background on these wheels?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

55301 - 55320 of 194719