Date   

Re: Lumber Loads in 1947

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Were the wire or cross pieces pulled down tightly against the top of the stack? If not would friction have been enough to keep the top layers in place against coupling and slack action?

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Dec 19, 2015, at 1:30 PM, 'gary laakso' vasa0vasa@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Here are flat cars and a GN gondola hauling lumber in Ogden in 1947.:
 
 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Lumber Loads in the Transition Era
 
 

Hello my friends,
 
  FIRST - let me thank all of you who have replied/sent photos/etc.  I
DO appreciate the help.  Many of you have sent emails to me off
list and I want to thank those who have done that as well.
 
                                    ****
 
  As is often the case there are some follow up questions/topics for
further discussion ... and all of it revolves around the changes in
how open lumber loads looked as time passed.
  Here are -my- conclusions/observations (for which I'm looking for
confirmation):

 
1) In the 40's and even in the early 50's almost all of the loads
      seem to all be the result of hand stacking.  By that I mean
      that the boards/beams have been put up "one stick at a time"
      rather than being stacked by any machine.  And both ends
      of the stack are "ragged" (not lined up at all).

  2) In addition to that - the earlier the picture the more likely it is
      that there was a mixture of dimensions all pretty much just
      piled up ... the 4x6s were not stacked with each other etc.
        And some of those ragged end stacks seems to be
      "intentional" in that we see some pictures that show "every
      other board" that is stacked longer/shorter and where the
      ones that are short are all lined up with each other (more or
      less). 

  3) In the 50's we start to see more stacks that have just one
      end of each stack that is 'more or less' lined up.  Still obviously
      stacked one board/piece at a time ... but with some semblance
      of one end of the stack looking "square" (but only sort of).

  4) And there are frequent examples of loads in gondolas as
      well as on flat cars.  Also showing the same lack of the
      ends being 'square' earlier and going towards one end being
      more or less square - but still obviously hand stacked.
         But as time passes the use of gondolas for lumber tapers
      off.

  5) Almost all of the cars - both flats and gons have two
      vertical 4x4s (other sizes?) outside of each stack, and then
      an open space in the middle of the car with two more verticals.
      And finally and the tops of these verticals are tied together with
      cross braces of approximately the same dimension.

  6) What I also seem to be seeing is that there is a general
      increase of the likelihood that 'finished' lumber was shipped
      in open loads (as time passes).

  7) One last conclusion - it would appear that the lumber was
      also -unloaded- one piece of material at a time and by hand.
      It may have been to/from a truck or the forks of a loader
      but it was stacked onto and off of the RR car one stick at
      a time.  (Essentially similar to how box cars were loaded.)

  8) It is also of interest to me that it appears that the loads
      generated in the West were not significantly different from
      those generated in the East ... and that it didn't really matter
      a whole lot which RR the load was originated on.  The entire
      industry (nation wide) appears to have progressed along the
      same lines and more or less at the same pace.

        I'm going to go past the end date of this list to make some
      further observations - because they are important differences
      in order to distinguish what is 'right'/'wrong' for doing loads
      for cars that ARE correct for our era.
         Please ignore/skip the rest of this if you are so firmly
      locked into the STMFC era that you "don't want to hear it".  *G*
  
  a) In the 60's we start to see some loads that are obviously
      loaded using a fork lift.  Not only are these 'bundled' but
      both ends of the load are square and as we get to the late
      60's the loads tend to be 'all of one (or at most 2 or 3) size
      of lumber.
         In addition we see the introduction of metal banding of
      the sections of the loads.  And as time passes we see the
      use of cardboard to reduce the damage that the metal bands
      can cause at the corners.

  b) In the 70's we start to see loads being covered with tarps, etc.
      And in this same time frame we start to see 'load specific' cars
      such as the center beams introduced.

  c) In the 80's we start to see what are known as "shed packs"
      where the entire package of the individual parts of the load
      are wrapped in plastic (think "Jaeger loads").

                                 ****

  Do I have it "mostly right"?  Are there some errors or fine tuning
to the above that you would like to correct/add?

                                  ****

  It is interesting to think about the amount of -labor- involved in
loading and unloading lumber in the STMFC era!  It would appear
that the lumber mills shipped lumber in quantity that was not
sorted by side (the way it came off the line?) and that the lumber
yards would sort the boards when they received them!  That's a
small army of laborers compared to how lumber is shipped today.
It isn't horribly surprising - I said it is "interesting". 
                                                                                   - Jim B.


HO 7' single door PS-1 40' box car

Andy Carlson
 

I have an undec new IMRC kit for this car (40' w/ 7' door).

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA




From: "'Brian Carlson' prrk41361@... [STMFC]"

 
Mike
 You do know that the Kadee car is incorrect for the early PS-1s which is why Kadee hasn’t done this car. See the essential freight Car series Jan 2008 in RMC for Ted Culotta’s article on using the IM car for this model.
Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY
 
 
 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 1:29 PM
To: stmfc@...
Subject: [STMFC] Removing Lettering From Kadee Box Cars
 
 
Hello,
 
Is there anyone out there who has knowledge (first hand experience) in removing factory lettering from Kadee box cars without harming the body paint (color)?  I'd like to model a NH 40' box car in the #34000 series.  I contacted Kadee and there are presently no undec.7 ft. door box cars available.
 
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
 
Thank You,
Mike Bradley



Re: Lumber Loads (Jack Work Article)

thecitrusbelt@...
 

There were two MODEL RAILROADER articles on this subject.


Lumber Loads: February 1957 Jack Work Page 32


Lumber Loads: June 1992 Noel T. Holley Page 79


Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA



Re: Removing Lettering From Kadee Box Cars

Brian Carlson
 

Mike

 You do know that the Kadee car is incorrect for the early PS-1s which is why Kadee hasn’t done this car. See the essential freight Car series Jan 2008 in RMC for Ted Culotta’s article on using the IM car for this model.

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga NY

 

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 1:29 PM
To: stmfc@...
Subject: [STMFC] Removing Lettering From Kadee Box Cars

 

 

Hello,

 

Is there anyone out there who has knowledge (first hand experience) in removing factory lettering from Kadee box cars without harming the body paint (color)?  I'd like to model a NH 40' box car in the #34000 series.  I contacted Kadee and there are presently no undec.7 ft. door box cars available.

 

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank You,

Mike Bradley


Example - Galvanized Paneled Roofs and Modeling Peeling Paint

Dean ONeill
 

In the Photos section, in a folder named Dean ONeill, I posted an example of the "rubber cement" paint peeling method, that I have been very happy with. This is on a Kadee car.

Dean ONeill
Redmond WA


Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

roy wojahn
 

No, the connection was to the EJ&E.


On Saturday, December 19, 2015 1:06 PM, "water.kresse@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
I could not get the link to work.  Is that the quarry on the Burlington line west of Chicago? Al Kresse


From: "zuch2rew@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 4:04:09 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

 
The shots were taken in the 50's or 60's at a Material Service quarry near Plainfield, Illinois.  They are part of a collection inherited by the son of the photographer.  If the son says its Illinois, I'll take his word.  While the Whitcomb diesel shown may look strange to the USA eye, they were somewhat common on USA shortlines.  

Roy




Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

water.kresse@...
 

I could not get the link to work.  Is that the quarry on the Burlington line west of Chicago? Al Kresse


From: "zuch2rew@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 4:04:09 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

 

The shots were taken in the 50's or 60's at a Material Service quarry near Plainfield, Illinois.  They are part of a collection inherited by the son of the photographer.  If the son says its Illinois, I'll take his word.  While the Whitcomb diesel shown may look strange to the USA eye, they were somewhat common on USA shortlines.  


Roy



Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

roy wojahn
 

The shots were taken in the 50's or 60's at a Material Service quarry near Plainfield, Illinois.  They are part of a collection inherited by the son of the photographer.  If the son says its Illinois, I'll take his word.  While the Whitcomb diesel shown may look strange to the USA eye, they were somewhat common on USA shortlines.  

Roy


Re: Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

Jim Betz
 

Tony,

  Yes, it is/was 3 verticals per stack as you point out.  How easily I
missed that detail!  Our memory is a frustrating thing to loose -
actually this wasn't so much my memory as it was my lack of
-counting- and then when I was typing my post I didn't go check 
what I thought I'd seen.
  Thanks for pointing it out - it's actually something that, if my
memory serves me well, is one of the more common errors when
we are scratch building our loads (from memory).  :-(
                                                                                    - Jim B.


Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

Jim Betz
 

  That is clearly not in Illinois ... I suggest somewhere in South America ... Jim B.


Shake N Take 2016 we're full

Greg Martin
 

 Hey Yuze Gize,

We are full for pre-registration via the Internet. You may check for at spot at the registration desk upon arrival.
 
READ and PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND ON LIST OR TO MIKE BROCK DIRECT.
 
PLEASE CONTATCT ME OFF-LIST AT:  tgregmrtn@...
 
This is the official announcement for the 2016 Prototype Rails SHAKE N TAKE for our 16th annual event and it promises to be a "Bash at the Beach".
 
Space is limited to thirty (30)  members, twenty (22) spots via the Internet and eight (8) at the registration table as you walk in.   
 
There are no provisions for sign up with registration.
 
Here is a list of the original sin up members. We have gone over by a few as some have elected to supply their own kits (*), I thank them as this made a bit more room.
 
  1. John Greedy
  2. Dick Barry
  3. Armand Premo
  4. Fenton Wells *
  5. Roger Hinman
  6. Schuyler Larrabee
  7. Mike Smeltzer
  8. Mont Switzer
  9. Craig Zeni
  10. Ross Dando
  11. George Corral
  12. Paul Bizier
  13. Jeff Sankus
  14. Dave Sieber
  15. Andy Carlson
  16. Ted Cullota
  17. Gene Semon
  18. John Cantlay * 
  19. Al Brown
  20. Bill Conway
  21. Tony Thompson
  22. T J Stratton
  23. Steve Orth
  24. Steve Hile
  25. Jeff Ally
  26. Mike Brock
  27. Aaron Gjermundson *
Here is a list of alternates
 
  1. Todd Horton
  2. Larry Sexton
  3. John Barry *
  We will do our best to accommodate all that are in attendance. If you plan to be there and are willing to supply your own kit, drop me a message and we'll try to have a part kits available, but you must be present and plan to participate.
 
We are in the process of keeping and AFTER MARKET list and Aaron will set the prices in the future depending on volume.
 
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 


Re: Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

richard haave
 

Seems I recall that Model Railroader had an article by (IIRC) Jack Work around 1959 on making open top lumber loads. 


Dick Haave


Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

roy wojahn
 

The freight cars shown on this site may not be steam era, but they appear beat up enough to be close.  Try;


picasaweb.google.com/109517272707102411928/MaterialService


thank you Bill Barber for the location.


Roy Wojahn



Re: Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

Greg Martin
 

Just to clarify this a bit...
 
Generally we call it SURFACED and ROUGH. Finished was a term that was often associated with finished goods such as siding, profiles or mouldings.
 
Surfaced was material that came from the saw mill went through a planner in the planning mill to a nominal size (dressed is a common term) , green or dried (both different dimensions) with a set of specifications that were met and when done correctly it was considered "on grade" and if not they were "off grade". These specifications were standards set by the American Lumber Standards or ALS in the U.S. The standards were very specific in many regards to meet a specific grade of lumber.
 
Rough was a term for dimensionally sawn/milled lumber with a rough or sized texture to a dimension close to full width and thickness. Rough sawn lumber can in all sizes from lath to timber.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 12/18/2015 3:22:56 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Garth Groff wrote:

 

If you have Tony's SP book volume 3, look on pages 213, 214, 225, and 249 for good shots of lumber loads on flat cars with bracing.

It is my understanding that the best quality lumber went into boxcars. While flat cars would have carried larger sizes, they also were used for lumber that was of lesser sizes but with a lower grade. All of the above photos seem to show this sort of load.


   Usually the distinction was "finished" vs "rough" lumber. The latter of course was unmilled and, as someone said, "splintery."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.s ignaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Lumber Loads in 1947

mwbauers
 

From the days before we had to Vandal proof everything.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Dec 19, 2015, at 12:30 PM, 'gary laakso' vasa0vasa@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Here are flat cars and a GN gondola hauling lumber in Ogden in 1947.:
 
 
 


Lumber Loads in 1947

gary laakso
 

Here are flat cars and a GN gondola hauling lumber in Ogden in 1947.:
 
 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 

Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Lumber Loads in the Transition Era
 
 

Hello my friends,
 
  FIRST - let me thank all of you who have replied/sent photos/etc.  I
DO appreciate the help.  Many of you have sent emails to me off
list and I want to thank those who have done that as well.
 
                                    ****
 
  As is often the case there are some follow up questions/topics for
further discussion ... and all of it revolves around the changes in
how open lumber loads looked as time passed.
  Here are -my- conclusions/observations (for which I'm looking for
confirmation):

 
1) In the 40's and even in the early 50's almost all of the loads
      seem to all be the result of hand stacking.  By that I mean
      that the boards/beams have been put up "one stick at a time"
      rather than being stacked by any machine.  And both ends
      of the stack are "ragged" (not lined up at all).

  2) In addition to that - the earlier the picture the more likely it is
      that there was a mixture of dimensions all pretty much just
      piled up ... the 4x6s were not stacked with each other etc.
        And some of those ragged end stacks seems to be
      "intentional" in that we see some pictures that show "every
      other board" that is stacked longer/shorter and where the
      ones that are short are all lined up with each other (more or
      less). 

  3) In the 50's we start to see more stacks that have just one
      end of each stack that is 'more or less' lined up.  Still obviously
      stacked one board/piece at a time ... but with some semblance
      of one end of the stack looking "square" (but only sort of).

  4) And there are frequent examples of loads in gondolas as
      well as on flat cars.  Also showing the same lack of the
      ends being 'square' earlier and going towards one end being
      more or less square - but still obviously hand stacked.
         But as time passes the use of gondolas for lumber tapers
      off.

  5) Almost all of the cars - both flats and gons have two
      vertical 4x4s (other sizes?) outside of each stack, and then
      an open space in the middle of the car with two more verticals.
      And finally and the tops of these verticals are tied together with
      cross braces of approximately the same dimension.

  6) What I also seem to be seeing is that there is a general
      increase of the likelihood that 'finished' lumber was shipped
      in open loads (as time passes).

  7) One last conclusion - it would appear that the lumber was
      also -unloaded- one piece of material at a time and by hand.
      It may have been to/from a truck or the forks of a loader
      but it was stacked onto and off of the RR car one stick at
      a time.  (Essentially similar to how box cars were loaded.)

  8) It is also of interest to me that it appears that the loads
      generated in the West were not significantly different from
      those generated in the East ... and that it didn't really matter
      a whole lot which RR the load was originated on.  The entire
      industry (nation wide) appears to have progressed along the
      same lines and more or less at the same pace.

        I'm going to go past the end date of this list to make some
      further observations - because they are important differences
      in order to distinguish what is 'right'/'wrong' for doing loads
      for cars that ARE correct for our era.
         Please ignore/skip the rest of this if you are so firmly
      locked into the STMFC era that you "don't want to hear it".  *G*
  
  a) In the 60's we start to see some loads that are obviously
      loaded using a fork lift.  Not only are these 'bundled' but
      both ends of the load are square and as we get to the late
      60's the loads tend to be 'all of one (or at most 2 or 3) size
      of lumber.
         In addition we see the introduction of metal banding of
      the sections of the loads.  And as time passes we see the
      use of cardboard to reduce the damage that the metal bands
      can cause at the corners.

  b) In the 70's we start to see loads being covered with tarps, etc.
      And in this same time frame we start to see 'load specific' cars
      such as the center beams introduced.

  c) In the 80's we start to see what are known as "shed packs"
      where the entire package of the individual parts of the load
      are wrapped in plastic (think "Jaeger loads").

                                 ****

  Do I have it "mostly right"?  Are there some errors or fine tuning
to the above that you would like to correct/add?

                                  ****

  It is interesting to think about the amount of -labor- involved in
loading and unloading lumber in the STMFC era!  It would appear
that the lumber mills shipped lumber in quantity that was not
sorted by side (the way it came off the line?) and that the lumber
yards would sort the boards when they received them!  That's a
small army of laborers compared to how lumber is shipped today.
It isn't horribly surprising - I said it is "interesting". 
                                                                                   - Jim B.


Removing Lettering From Kadee Box Cars

Mike Bradley
 

Hello,

Is there anyone out there who has knowledge (first hand experience) in removing factory lettering from Kadee box cars without harming the body paint (color)?  I'd like to model a NH 40' box car in the #34000 series.  I contacted Kadee and there are presently no undec.7 ft. door box cars available.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You,
Mike Bradley


Re: Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Betz wrote:

 
      5) Almost all of the cars - both flats and gons have two 
      vertical 4x4s (other sizes?) outside of each stack, and then
      an open space in the middle of the car with two more verticals.
      And finally and the tops of these verticals are tied together with
      cross braces of approximately the same dimension. 


     Jim, there was an AAR loading diagram, which was regarded as close to mandatory, and it specified three, not two, side stakes per stack. Cross connections could be wire or smaller material than side stakes, and side stakes were sometimes saplings or poles, not dimension lumber.


  8) It is also of interest to me that it appears that the loads
      generated in the West were not significantly different from
      those generated in the East ... and that it didn't really matter
      a whole lot which RR the load was originated on.  The entire
      industry (nation wide) appears to have progressed along the
      same lines and more or less at the same pace.

      See previous comment. The ARA and AAR loading diagrams had been in force for many years prior to the 1950s.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

Jim Betz
 

Hello my friends,

  FIRST - let me thank all of you who have replied/sent photos/etc.  I
DO appreciate the help.  Many of you have sent emails to me off
list and I want to thank those who have done that as well.

                                    ****

  As is often the case there are some follow up questions/topics for
further discussion ... and all of it revolves around the changes in
how open lumber loads looked as time passed.
  Here are -my- conclusions/observations (for which I'm looking for 
confirmation):
 
 1) In the 40's and even in the early 50's almost all of the loads 
      seem to all be the result of hand stacking.  By that I mean
      that the boards/beams have been put up "one stick at a time"
      rather than being stacked by any machine.  And both ends
      of the stack are "ragged" (not lined up at all). 

  2) In addition to that - the earlier the picture the more likely it is
      that there was a mixture of dimensions all pretty much just
      piled up ... the 4x6s were not stacked with each other etc.
        And some of those ragged end stacks seems to be 
      "intentional" in that we see some pictures that show "every 
      other board" that is stacked longer/shorter and where the
      ones that are short are all lined up with each other (more or
      less).  

  3) In the 50's we start to see more stacks that have just one
      end of each stack that is 'more or less' lined up.  Still obviously
      stacked one board/piece at a time ... but with some semblance
      of one end of the stack looking "square" (but only sort of).

  4) And there are frequent examples of loads in gondolas as
      well as on flat cars.  Also showing the same lack of the
      ends being 'square' earlier and going towards one end being
      more or less square - but still obviously hand stacked.
         But as time passes the use of gondolas for lumber tapers
      off.

  5) Almost all of the cars - both flats and gons have two 
      vertical 4x4s (other sizes?) outside of each stack, and then
      an open space in the middle of the car with two more verticals.
      And finally and the tops of these verticals are tied together with
      cross braces of approximately the same dimension. 

  6) What I also seem to be seeing is that there is a general
      increase of the likelihood that 'finished' lumber was shipped
      in open loads (as time passes).

  7) One last conclusion - it would appear that the lumber was
      also -unloaded- one piece of material at a time and by hand.
      It may have been to/from a truck or the forks of a loader
      but it was stacked onto and off of the RR car one stick at
      a time.  (Essentially similar to how box cars were loaded.)

  8) It is also of interest to me that it appears that the loads
      generated in the West were not significantly different from
      those generated in the East ... and that it didn't really matter
      a whole lot which RR the load was originated on.  The entire
      industry (nation wide) appears to have progressed along the
      same lines and more or less at the same pace.

        I'm going to go past the end date of this list to make some
      further observations - because they are important differences
      in order to distinguish what is 'right'/'wrong' for doing loads
      for cars that ARE correct for our era.
         Please ignore/skip the rest of this if you are so firmly
      locked into the STMFC era that you "don't want to hear it".  *G*
   
  a) In the 60's we start to see some loads that are obviously
      loaded using a fork lift.  Not only are these 'bundled' but
      both ends of the load are square and as we get to the late
      60's the loads tend to be 'all of one (or at most 2 or 3) size
      of lumber.
         In addition we see the introduction of metal banding of
      the sections of the loads.  And as time passes we see the
      use of cardboard to reduce the damage that the metal bands
      can cause at the corners.

  b) In the 70's we start to see loads being covered with tarps, etc.
      And in this same time frame we start to see 'load specific' cars 
      such as the center beams introduced.

  c) In the 80's we start to see what are known as "shed packs"
      where the entire package of the individual parts of the load 
      are wrapped in plastic (think "Jaeger loads").

                                 ****

  Do I have it "mostly right"?  Are there some errors or fine tuning
to the above that you would like to correct/add?

                                  ****

  It is interesting to think about the amount of -labor- involved in
loading and unloading lumber in the STMFC era!  It would appear
that the lumber mills shipped lumber in quantity that was not
sorted by side (the way it came off the line?) and that the lumber
yards would sort the boards when they received them!  That's a
small army of laborers compared to how lumber is shipped today.
It isn't horribly surprising - I said it is "interesting".  
                                                                                   - Jim B.


Re: Detail Associates?

Tim O'Connor
 

CZ

methinks thou dost extrapolate from slightly different shades of
tan (quite common in DA packages -- also different shades of ink
printing on them) to some nefarious scheme to color code packages

I call both of those packages "tan"

and all this began when someone said DA never produced brass castings. :-)

Merry Christmas, Ho Ho Ho!

Tim O'

I think you're confused now Craig. All of my DA parts in brass & plastic
are in the same tan/brown color packages. Details West used several different
package colors for freight car parts, track parts, diesel detail parts, ...
I just checked and found DA brass, white metal, plastic and wire items all in
the same color packages.
Read it and weep, Tim :)

http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/grills/IMAG0754.jpg
http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/grills/IMAG0756.jpg

Craig Zeni
Cary NC

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