Date   

Re: Lumber Loads in 1947, 1952, and 1957 - Changes in Types of Cars Loaded

Bill Decker
 

Charles,

Thank you so much for your analysis and posting of this data!  You have provided numbers to confirm my "anecdotal" observations of the loading trends over the "transition era."  

I suspect the shift to more flat cars (and away from gondolas) mirrors trends in material handling.  Yes, even in 1957 a lot of hand labor was involved on both ends of the lumber journey, but I suspect we also are seeing the introduction of mechanization, e.g. fork lifts or other machinery, to the process.  Further, we have the impact of more suitable flat cars.  

Taking a cue from my favorite RR (Southern Pacific--think Oregon and Northern California timber regions), well documented by Dr. Thompson (thanks Tony!), one finds a massive infusion of 70 ton flat cars in 1950 (F-70-7, 2050 cars) and 1954 (F-70-10, 1000 cars).  Prior to that, one finds most flat cars were of smaller capacity  (50 or 40 ton) and dimension (40 foot).  The new 70 ton, 53 foot cars were well suited to the forest products trade, witness their longevity in that service well past the end of interest to this list.  

Charles, your analysis helps document the transition.  Thanks!

Bill Decker


Re: Request for dates of proto meets, historical society events, other scale modeling-related events

Steve SANDIFER
 

Feb 19-21, 2016 - Prairie Rail, Operating weekend in Kansas City

March 7-13, 2016 - Comanche and Indian Gap Spring Meet (1.5" scale live steam)

March 18-20, 2016 - Layout Design Sig seminar and op weekend, Tulsa

June 22-26, 2016 - Lone Star Region, NMRA, convention, Dallas

June 22-26, 2016 - Santa Fe Historical and Modeling Society Convention, Wichita, KS

 

__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 10:10 PM
To: protomeets@...; RPM-forum@...; Diesels; STMFC@...; mfcl@...; PassengerCarList@...
Subject: [STMFC] Request for dates of proto meets, historical society events, other scale modeling-related events

 

 

Hello all:

I'm trying to assemble a calendar of all prototype meets, historical
society conventions and other modeling events.

My plan is to have this available for all to view.

Would anyone who has an event please send me the following information:
Name of event
Date and times
Location
VERY short description
Cost
Contact information
web site if any
Facebook presence if any

Thanks very much,

Dave Owens
West Hartford, Conn.


Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
 

My recollection as an interested child growing up in that area is that Material Service Corp. had a number of unconnected industrial railroad operations, most of which were for the numerous limestone quarries around the same part of the southwestern Chicago area, and the color scheme of the USA Whitcomb center cab was and is a familiar one. These very same quarries, many of which were gigantic, were also served by swarms of small tank engines that spiraled down along ledges to the bottom with short cuts of side dumps, where steam shovels awaited to load them for the return trip up. This all disappeared shortly after WWII in favor of trucks.

Of side bar interest, Material Service Corp. was controlled by the Crown family, who also were the controlling stockholders of the Rock Island RR, the latter right up to abandonment, if memory serves (it often does not….). I believe that the Rock may have in fact served some of the quarries out toward or beyond Joliet.

Others closer at hand in Chicago can probably comment more authoritatively.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento CA


Another lettering removal question . . .

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Life-Like Proto-2000 tank cars.  Specifically, a CONOCO tank.  91% alcohol didn’t touch it, to my surprise and disappointment.

 

Recommendations? Suggestions?

 

Schuyler

 


Lumber Loads in 1947, 1952, and 1957 - Changes in Types of Cars Loaded

Charles Hostetler
 

This is a comparison of types of cars loaded with lumber, shingles, and lath toward the end of the steam era.  The amounts are in carloads present in the 1% sample; to estimate national carloads for the year multiply by 100.  



Total 1947

Refrigerator - 4

Box - 9032  [81%]

Stock - 101  [1%]

Gondola - 937  [8%]

Hopper - 2

Flat - 999  [9%]

Special - 12

Tank - 0

Total 1947 - 11,087


Total 1952

Refrigerator - 3

Box - 6951  [83%]

Stock - 13

Gondola - 431  [5%]

Hopper - 3

Flat - 1003  [12%]

Special - 8

Tank - 0

Total 1952 - 8,412


Total 1957

Refrigerator - 0

Box - 5216  [85%]

Stock - 0

Gondola - 149  [2%]

Hopper - 1

Flat - 783  [13%]

Special - 0

Tank - 0

Total 1957 - 6,149



The percentage of lumber loads in box cars actually increased slightly during this 10-year period.  The percentage of flat car loads increased a bit as well, while the percentage of loads in gondolas decreased fourfold.  In 1947 there were almost as many gondola loads as flat car loads while in 1957 there were about 5 times more flat car loads than gondola loads.  

Regards,

Charles Hostetler
Washington, Ill.



Playing it Froward: Help Needed at Prototype Rails on Saturday. Jan. 9

Bill Welch
 

As an extension of my traditionally formatted Prototype Rails 2016 clinic "Airbrushing 101 & Spraying Acrylics" there will also be an opportunity for 48 attendees to experience spraying Modelflex Acrylic paint with one of four internal mix double action airbrushes—Two Badgers, GREX, or Passche. I have requested a two and a half hour block of time on Saturday afternoon for this "Live Fire" opportunity. Each person will have about ten minutes to get the feel of one of these airbrushes and paint a freight car body furnished courtesy of Accurail. Four painters will be painting at any one time. Signups for this will begin about 1 PM on Friday, January 8.


To make this an optimal experience, I still need two experienced airbrush users to please step forward to help participants so that each painter has a Coach. These coaches will also help me keep the Airbrushes cleaned and supplied with paint. Although ideally these coaches will have experience spraying water based Acrylics, airbrushing with confidence is more important.

This event will conflict with "Shake & Take" although people that want to try spraying Acrylic paint can sign up for one of the early time slots.

If you can help me and more importantly the 48 prospective painters please contact me offline at fgexbill (at) tampabay.rr.com (you know how to plug in the "@" and take out the spaces to make the address work, right?).

Thank you for your attention!
Bill Welch



Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

Douglas Harding
 

The gravel pit photos were first linked on the CBQ list in response to this quest by Leo Philips: Near Plainfield, IL I noticed clear signs of former rail Spurs to the now flooded pits along Rte 126,Renwick road and Rte 30. Clearly these pits were served by the "J". The 1945 and '56 "J" employee TT's show a station .75 miles east of Plainfield named Gravel Pit with capacity of 119 cars. This would place the station southeast of Plainfield. There are, to this day, clear signs of of a North/ South spur crossing Renwick road just east of Rte 30. There are numerous signs of Spurs on both sides of rte 126 east of Plainfield of more Spurs. My gut says these were dug to supply Chicago gravel for cement, etc but would love to have more information about who operated the pits, when, where did the gravel go,etc,etc,etc.

 

To which Bill Barber responded: I believe the operation that you are talking about belonged to Material Service Corp. My late father apparently had some interest in this line and photographed it on two occasions. This link to one album on my Picasa web page provides the photos that he took at that time. https://picasaweb.google.com/109517272707102411928/MaterialService (Link corrected) I do not know exactly when he took the photos, but I believe that it was in the 1970s. I tried to find a map of the Material Service system, but have been unsuccessful. Somewhere, I did find that apparently, MS had two operations in the area. One was closer to Joliet and the other is this one near Plainfield. As I recall, at one time, you could see glimpses of the RR from I-55 close to where IL 126 exits. The last six photos in the album pertain to another site. I believe it was a coal fired power plant near Joliet, but an not certain. I have no idea what my dad’s interest in this line was, but he was a model railroader and may have used the photos for a presentation to an NMRA group.

 

Then someone shared the link on this list, with no explanation or reference to location.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Lumber Loads in 1947 - Seasonality and Type of Car

Charles Hostetler
 

These data are from the 1947 ICC 1% Carload Waybill Survey for lumber, shingles, and lath.  They are carloads in the sample (to estimate national carloads multiply by 100).


1st Quarter (Jan-Mar)

Refrigerator - 1

Box - 2217

Stock - 22

Gondola - 278

Hopper - 0

Flat - 242

Special - 1

Tank - 0

Total 1st Quarter - 2761


2nd Quarter (Apr-Jun)

Refrigerator - 0

Box - 2128

Stock - 20

Gondola - 203

Hopper - 1

Flat - 266

Special - 4

Tank - 0

Total 2nd Quarter - 2622


3rd Quarter (Jul-Sep)

Refrigerator - 2

Box - 2271

Stock - 15

Gondola - 223

Hopper - 0

Flat - 257

Special - 5

Tank - 0

Total 3rd Quarter - 2773


4th Quarter (Oct-Dec)

Refrigerator - 1

Box - 2416

Stock - 44

Gondola - 233

Hopper - 1

Flat - 234

Special - 2

Tank - 0

Total 4th Quarter - 2931


Total 1947 (Jan-Dec)

Refrigerator - 4

Box - 9032  [81%]

Stock - 101  [1%]

Gondola - 937  [8%]

Hopper - 2

Flat - 999  [9%]

Special - 12

Tank - 0

Total 1947 - 11,087


Within the sampling uncertainty I don't see a lot of seasonality, and it would appear in 1947 that there were almost as many gondola loads as flat car loads.  


Regards,


Charles Hostetler

Washington IL


Re: Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Dick wrote:

 
  After reading much source material from the 1930's forward, including reports on wrecks caused by shifting lumber, the AAR recommendations had everything to do with safety and not so much with vandalism.

      The Loading Rules did not start with the AAR, as I am sure Jim knows, but I want to make sure this is clear. I have before me a 1926 edition, from the ARA Mechanical Division. It states that Loading Rules were first adopted by the MCB as Recommended Practice in 1896, and advanced to Standard in 1908. Until the early 1930s (still as ARA), there was a single book of these rules, but then the various kinds of things to be loaded received more and more specialized rules, and there emerged a set of these books (for example, loading forest products), and by the 1950s there were at least seven of them. I have never seen a full list, nor do I know when they all started. But to give one example, Pamphlet MD-7 (suggesting there were at least seven) from the AAR in 1953 covers DoD material on open-top cars. My copy is stamped by the Post Transportation Office at Fort Sill, Oklahoma.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

Tony Thompson
 

Mark Rickert wrote:

Don't forget I currently have some of the diagrams in my collection available for free download. The following link gets the whole booklet:

    Thanks for the reminder, Mark. I knew about this resource you make available but forgot to mention it in my post.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Lumber Loads in 1947

np328
 

I have got a railroad drawing of an NP Load Adjuster. Always wondered how that worked, thanks for you explanation! Now it all fits.    Jim Dick - Roseville. MN


Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

destorzek@...
 

I can't put my finger on the origin of the cars, but they are REALLY old early steel ore cars, some look like from the Summers Steel Car Co., undoubtedly purchased second hand. The large door operating wheel looks homemade. The railroad here was for internal haulage only, from the pit to the washer; these cars obviously never left the property.

I seem to recall this operation closed down in the early sixties; this was one of the potential sites investigated by the Illinois Railway Museum when they were looking to move from their initial home in North Chicago. This site wasn't chosen, and they ended up moving to Union, IL.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

I should have 'studied the pics longer'. The cars with no markings
fooled me into thinking this was not in the U.S. And the lack of any
'defining' details we typically see on RRs here in the U.S. But, upon
further study I found stuff like crossing signals, one car with a
reporting mark, hard hats on the workers, etc.
This turns out to be a company RR that is "off the grid". And, since
the photos appear to be from the early 70's there was very little
evidence of OSHA and other such governmental influences. They
probably had a link to a mainline RR some where ... but I'm guessing
that it was one of those that are "thru a chain link fence gate".

Those cars are -very- unique. Stuff like those big wheels that
operate the doors is uncommon. And then there is the overall
condition of the cars - totally functional ... but also very beat up!
And how about that part of the track that ran thru that swamp!
Too bad these are photos and not videos - I bet those trains were
"rocking and rolling".
- Jim B.


Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Doug,

These locomotives were built by Whitcomb locomotive works to a unique design. They are all 65-ton machines of model DE-14A or DE-19A and variants built for the U.S. Army. Many served overseas. Following the war, most still in the U.S. were sold off, usuallly to industrial firms, though a few went to work for common-carrier railroads. Here's the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_D._Whitcomb_Company .

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 12/20/15 5:47 AM, paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC] wrote:
 
Doug.
Whilst i cannot throw any light on the locomotive manufacturer. Is it not ex USATC i seem to remember photos of very similar locos in USATC service.
Paul Doggett UK




Sent from Samsung mobile

"'Douglas Harding' doug.harding@... [STMFC]" wrote:
 

Al there was an error in the link as first posted on the CBQ list. Try this: https://picasaweb.google.com/109517272707102411928/MaterialService

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 



Re: Lumber Loads in 1947

caboose9792@...
 

 
 
In a message dated 12/19/2015 5:10:59 P.M. Central Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
Were the wire or cross pieces pulled down tightly against the top of the stack? If not would friction have been enough to keep the top layers in place against coupling and slack action?

Dave
"Kind of" Most of the bigger yards had a home made rig using an adjustable plate which could be raised and lowered so the engine could push the boards sticking out back in to the bundle.  See 11:46- 12:06 in the movie "Right & Wrong Way to Deliver a New Television!" by the Santa Fe Railroad filmed in the 50's for a particularly heavy duty example in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHRGkGFwo7k

Mark Rickert


Re: Gravel Pit Operation near Plainfield Illinois

paul.doggett2472@...
 

Doug.
Whilst i cannot throw any light on the locomotive manufacturer. Is it not ex USATC i seem to remember photos of very similar locos in USATC service.
Paul Doggett UK




Sent from Samsung mobile

"'Douglas Harding' doug.harding@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Al there was an error in the link as first posted on the CBQ list. Try this: https://picasaweb.google.com/109517272707102411928/MaterialService

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: San Francisco Port of Embarcation

paul.doggett2472@...
 

John 
I am pretty certain the weigh date is 9-44 not 2.
Paul Doggett UK




Sent from Samsung mobile

"John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

I've written a short blog post about the largest rail customer in the SF Bay area during WWII.  Can anyone identify the passenger car at the head of the troop train in the next to last photo.  Is the reweigh date on the B&A flat 2 or 9 - 44?  Also, can anyone provide more info on the SLSF 40' DS auto car?



 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736


Re: Lumber Loads in the Transition Era

caboose9792@...
 

 
 
In a message dated 12/19/2015 12:01:10 P.M. Central Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
     Jim, there was an AAR loading diagram, which was regarded as c lose to mandatory, and it specified three, not two, side stakes per stack. Cross connections could be wire or smaller material than side stakes, and side stakes were sometimes saplings or poles, not dimension lumber.


  8) It is also of interest to me that it appears that the loads
      generated in the West were not significantly different from
      those generated in the East ... and that it didn't really matter
      a whole lot which RR the load was originated on.  The entire
      industry (nation wide) appears to have progressed along the
      same lines and more or less at the same pace.

      See previous comment. The ARA and AAR loading diagrams had been in force for many years prior to the 1950s.


 
 
Don't forget I currently have some of the diagrams in my collection available for free download. The following link gets the whole booklet:

http://palfan.us/galleryphotos/temp%20pages/AAR%20forest%20products%20open%20top%20cars%20supp1%206-15-54.pdf
 
Mark Rickert


San Francisco Port of Embarcation

John Barry
 

I've written a short blog post about the largest rail customer in the SF Bay area during WWII.  Can anyone identify the passenger car at the head of the troop train in the next to last photo.  Is the reweigh date on the B&A flat 2 or 9 - 44?  Also, can anyone provide more info on the SLSF 40' DS auto car?



 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736


Re: Removing Lettering From Kadee Box Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike

The IM car is even worse -- it's a 1953-1960 PS-1. Kadee makes
that one and the 1950-1953 PS-1.

Half of the 1940's NH PS-1 box cars were 10'0" IH, so make sure
you've got the number right for a 10'6" IH car.

The closest PS-1 model body is the old McKean kit, that has the pre-1950
roof. The sill tabs are incorrect for a pre-1950 but that's easily fixed,
and I think the do-hickies (small stampings) at the top of the ends don't
belong -- easy to remove if you're going to paint the whole car.

This is my McKean kit build of a UP B-50-40
https://www.flickr.com/photos/timboconnor/16921494429/in/album-72157642563526314/

Tim O'

Hi Brian,

Thank you for the heads up. I must not have known this or I just plain forgot. I am of the understanding that Kadee is pretty particular about prototype fidelity, so you have made it pretty clear why they haven't produced this car.

So, I'll look to find the IM car.

thanks Again,
Mike Bradley

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