Date   

Re: Lumber Shipments in 1952 - Through or Interchange Traffic

Charles Hostetler
 

Greg wrote in part:

"We have to presume that the IHC was reported into the NYC numbers for revenue purposes, just as the Sacramento Northern was in the WP numbers. For the LA Basin I am not sure who was responsible for the small amount of revenue the LA Junction or the Pacific Harbor Line generated, I would suppose it was split between the parents."


It didn't work quite the way that Greg presumes/supposes.  This is the reporting requirement as quoted from the 1952 annual report:

"Under the Commission's order of September 24, 1946, as amended, steam railway companies, other than switching and terminal companies, assigned to Class 1, are required to make quarterly and annual reports of freight traffic statistics, in duplicate, and for that purpose this form is provided."

Here's the 1952 definition of freight traffic originating on respondent's road:

"Originated on respondent's road means:  (a) shipments originated directly on respondent's road; (b) shipments received from water lines and highway motor truck lines, except when identified as having previous rail transportation; (c) shipments which received first line haul on respondent's road, but originated on switching lines connected directly or indirectly with respondent's road; (d) import traffic received from water carriers, and traffic from outlying possessions of the United States; (e) outbound freight which has been accorded transit privileges."

The 1952 definition of freight traffic terminating on respondent's road is worded similarly.  

So in 1952 the IHB was a Class 1 Switching and Terminal Company (which happened to be in the Chicago Switching District), not a Class 1 steam railway.  It was not required to report (under this order), and it's statistics weren't lumped with the NYC (parent company).  Suppose we have a load originating on the SP, interchanged to the UP and then the CNW, and finally delivered to a consignee on the IHB.  This would have been recorded as a shipment of lumber, shingle, and lath originating on the SP, through for the UP and CNW , and terminating on the CNW (Note the potential for double counting; recognized by the designers of the study).  


In most cases, especially within switching districts, the originating line haul carrier (or the terminating line haul carrier) is a Class 1 steam railway and the carload is reported.  But there are cases where the originating (or terminating) line haul railway is NOT a Class 1 Steam Railway NOR a switching or terminal line (loads originating and/or terminating on the Atlantic and Danville for example).  In such cases the statistics were "missed" by this reporting system.  This is one of the two reasons why for a given commodity in any given year the number of originations did not match the number of terminations.  

Regards,

Charles Hostetler
Washington Ill.


Re: Lumber Shipments in 1952 - Through or Interchange Traffic

Greg Martin
 

Garth writes in part:
 
"I was also interested to see that the Southern's components are all listed separately. When you lump the four lines together, the Southern totals become much more significant. The SP becomes even larger when you add the T&NO and NWP to the SP. The same is true for the C&NW and CMO.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff"
 
We have to presume that the IHC was reported into the NYC numbers for revenue purposes, just as the Sacramento Northern was in the WP numbers. For the LA Basin I am not sure who was responsible for the small amount of revenue the LA Junction or the Pacific Harbor Line generated, I would suppose it was split between the parents.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 


Re: Lumber Shipments in 1952 - Origination of Loads

Greg Martin
 

No Schuyler, the origin remains the same. A re-consignment only changes the last consignee. A diversion changes only the destination. You can divert and re-consign as one change to the waybill. 
 
Greg  
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 12/25/2015 12:24:28 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Is a reconsigned shipment an “origination?”

Schuyler

Keep those rollers rolling! Reconsigned shipments help account for more originations than terminations.
Andy L.


Re: Rock Island 40ft "Fowler Patent" cars

skibbs4
 

Perfect, thanks Steve!

I got distracted with one of the S Scale America kits for the earlier cars yesterday and thought I might dig up some parts to modernize it. The photos of the ends are a tremendous help.  And thanks for pointing out the radial roof which I also would have missed from the side shot. 

Mike Skibbe


On Dec 27, 2015, at 1:16 AM, 'Steve and Barb Hile' shile@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Mike,

 

The RI series 133000 – 133999 single sheathed boxcars were built in 1927.  The first 500 numbers were built by Bettendorf and the latter 500 were built by ACF.  They had early 3-4 Dreadnaught ends and radial roofs along with the steel doors.  There were some subtle differences between the two builders.  I posted a couple of pictures into the group’s photo area back in May in conjunction with a message on the shape of Dreadnaught end ribs.

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/conversations/messages/134219

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/photos/photostream/lightbox/957276794?orderBy=mtime&sortOrder=desc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/1246709488

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/photos/photostream/lightbox/957276794?orderBy=mtime&sortOrder=desc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/957276794

 

Rock Island “Fowler” cars evolved, over the years from wood doors and ends to steel doors and ends.  There was also a batch from (I think) about 1923 that had Murphy ribbed ends.  Overall, the side framing configuration remained pretty similar.  Westerfield offers models of the wood end and door cars and appears to have intended to follow along with the other groups, but never did.  Perhaps Andrew Dahm will eventually fill this niche.  These sturdy cars served the RI very well and a significant number were converted to stock cars (Westerfield does model these cars) and cabooses (Rocket Express models these.

 

Please let me know if you have other specific questions.

 

Regards,

Steve Hile

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2015 10:49 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Rock Island 40ft "Fowler Patent" cars

 

 

In Culotta's 'Steam Era Freight Car Reference Manual', there is a photo of the Rock Island's Class B-2 modernized, "Fowler" looking 40 foot boxcar series with a steel door.  

 

I'm assuming that the cars also had steel ends.  Does anyone have and idea what type of ends these cars featured?

 

The caption references 2,700 upgraded cars built between 1923 and 1927.  The car shown is R.I. 133349

 

Thanks,

Mike Skibbe


ue:

sevanwinter
 



http://mcclocaladmin.com/wfstoiv.php






























>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm not the greatest; I'm the dou_ble greatest. Not only do I knock 'em out, I pick the round.
Verlie Riobe


Re: Rock Island 40ft "Fowler Patent" cars

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Mike,

 

The RI series 133000 – 133999 single sheathed boxcars were built in 1927.  The first 500 numbers were built by Bettendorf and the latter 500 were built by ACF.  They had early 3-4 Dreadnaught ends and radial roofs along with the steel doors.  There were some subtle differences between the two builders.  I posted a couple of pictures into the group’s photo area back in May in conjunction with a message on the shape of Dreadnaught end ribs.

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/conversations/messages/134219

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/photos/photostream/lightbox/957276794?orderBy=mtime&sortOrder=desc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/1246709488

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/photos/photostream/lightbox/957276794?orderBy=mtime&sortOrder=desc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/957276794

 

Rock Island “Fowler” cars evolved, over the years from wood doors and ends to steel doors and ends.  There was also a batch from (I think) about 1923 that had Murphy ribbed ends.  Overall, the side framing configuration remained pretty similar.  Westerfield offers models of the wood end and door cars and appears to have intended to follow along with the other groups, but never did.  Perhaps Andrew Dahm will eventually fill this niche.  These sturdy cars served the RI very well and a significant number were converted to stock cars (Westerfield does model these cars) and cabooses (Rocket Express models these.

 

Please let me know if you have other specific questions.

 

Regards,

Steve Hile

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2015 10:49 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Rock Island 40ft "Fowler Patent" cars

 

 

In Culotta's 'Steam Era Freight Car Reference Manual', there is a photo of the Rock Island's Class B-2 modernized, "Fowler" looking 40 foot boxcar series with a steel door.  

 

I'm assuming that the cars also had steel ends.  Does anyone have and idea what type of ends these cars featured?

 

The caption references 2,700 upgraded cars built between 1923 and 1927.  The car shown is R.I. 133349

 

Thanks,

Mike Skibbe


Rock Island 40ft "Fowler Patent" cars

skibbs4
 

In Culotta's 'Steam Era Freight Car Reference Manual', there is a photo of the Rock Island's Class B-2 modernized, "Fowler" looking 40 foot boxcar series with a steel door.  


I'm assuming that the cars also had steel ends.  Does anyone have and idea what type of ends these cars featured?


The caption references 2,700 upgraded cars built between 1923 and 1927.  The car shown is R.I. 133349


Thanks,

Mike Skibbe


Re: What's in a name

Dennis Storzek
 


I suspect The use of "air line" in railroad names fell out of fashion after 1906, when the  Chicago - New York Electric Air Line Railroad was organized. Initially proposed as a high speed double track line between it's namesake cities with NO curves, NO crossings at grade, and NO gradient steeper than one half percent. This fiasco was financed entirely through stock subscription, and it has often been suggested that the scheme was little more than a stock swindle, but construction did begin in 1907. By 1911 they had completed only fifteen miles, when the costs of building a massive fill over Coffy Creek, a minor waterway, drove the company bankrupt. Several branch lines did survive to become part of Gary Railways, an electric street railway company.

More here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_%E2%80%93_New_York_Electric_Air_Line_Railroad

Dennis Storzek


Re: What's in a name

A&Y Dave in MD
 

I have seen it used to include rail and water combined routes too. The idea they were conveying was pure marketing--whether parcel or person, you will be conveyed via the most direct route from point A to point B over land and water as if gliding on air. As with all marketing, it rarely lived up to the image described.

If I'm not mistaken, but without easy means to check my memory, I recall reading about an air line involving stage coaches as well as rail and water at the Postal Museum in DC near Union Station. As we know now, even the realization of riding in the air via a current "airline" isn't all that much better in reality than being conveyed in a cattle car in 1930!  

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPad

On Dec 26, 2015, at 6:32 AM, 'Scott H. Haycock ' shhaycock@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Garth,

I pretty much knew that it implied a faster, more direct route, being a SAL modeler.

I was wondering, though, since "Air Line" predates commercial air travel ( I think I've read of roads incorporating this into there name around the turn of the last century), where did the phrase come from? 

Scott Haycock


 

Scott,

Likely pure marketing in most cases, since it implies a straight (and faster) route from points A to B. For example, the 30-(or so) mile Virginia Air Line was a C&O subsidiary which provided a short-cut between their James River route and their Mountain Division in central Virginia. This was designed to speed large amounts of coal to Washington and avoid extra miles and yard time in Richmond. Why it was incorporated as a separate company is beyond me.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff




Re: What's in a name

Dave Nelson
 

The Southern Pacific was the nation’s first holding company, a structure created by the Big Four to avoid personal liability should any of their owned or leased railroads default (especially the CP).  At its peak the SP owned and leased over 250 different incorporated railroads. Perhaps with the exception of the T&NO (Texas Laws for railroads were rather different) they operated all of them  as-if they were one and so the word Lines in the corporate title is perfectly explanatory to the nature of the company.  I expect the use of the word System as used by other corporations is the same.

 

SP reorganized in 1947 and got rid of most of the incorporated entities.  IIRC 1947 is the year the SP paid off the last bonds they had issued as replacements for the CP first mortgage and so its plausible the two events were related.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2015 2:12 AM

As for "lines" or "system", this could imply that the railway held various corporate subsidiaries, sometimes for local political reasons (the SP was quite unpopular in California before the turn of the Century), or to meet the requirements of various states. For example, Southern Pacific Lines actually included many subsidiaries which had their own articles of incorporation, including continuing the Central Pacific on paper for many, many years. The T&NO was a completely separate corporation to meet Texas requirements for all railroads to be in-state corporations. Eventually, these were all tidied up during a reorganization

 


Re: What's in a name

MDelvec952
 



Generally speaking the use of Railroad in a corporate name was an American term, and Railway was British. Canada, of course, followed British tradition. The incunables of railroading tended to use the term as two words, and most of the earliest railroad companies incorporated using two words. A few railroads today still retain their original corporate names; notable examples are the Long Island Rail Road and the Strasburg Rail Road. Around the time of the Civil War the term began to grow a hyphen, Rail-Road, and by the time there was a standard gauge writers began using one word, railroad. Thus, most of the Western roads and later incorporations were using one word, and a few were using railway(s). Some corporate consolidations in America used System and Lines and Railway(s). 

During the merger era and today's alphabet era anything goes for both those who incorporate new railroad names, and those who write about them. Even responsible publications today don't appear to bother with such details, and some of today's railroad owners don't understand the traditions. Language evolves, and in today's internet world where more people are "publishing" more words than ever, phrases and language will change quickly and the style-book is getting lost in the cacophony. And let's not talk about the (mis)use of type and typefaces.

Where this discussion isn't off topic is that these corporate name traditions could be seen on the sides of steam-era freight cars and the public could repeatedly see the name of the local Rail Road, Railway or System. Not so much among the miles of reporting marks roaming the rails today.

              ....Mike Del Vecchio




-----Original Message-----
From: richramik@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Fri, Dec 25, 2015 9:03 pm
Subject: [STMFC] What's in a name

 
I realize this is a bit off topic, but this is a question that I have been thinking about for a while now.  I've done some research but have not found the rationale or reason for using the following:
  • railroad
  • railway
  • lines
  • system

What would be the reasoning for using any of the four.  For example,
  • Pennsylvania Railroad
  • Great Northern Railway
  • Southern Pacific Lines
  • New York Central System
I guess what I am really asking is what are the differences between them?

Thanks,
Rich Ramik


Re: What's in a name

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Scott,

I suspect it meant a straight route without any meandering around hills and such.

Here's part of a story from the WESTERN RAILROADER issue 296 by H.W. Fabing entitled "San Juan Pacific Railway; California Central Railroad". The SJPRY (later CCRR) was an 8-mile shortline built in 1907 from Chittenden to San Juan Bautista south of Watsonville to serve a cement plant.

'The route as surveyed offered little difficulty in construction except that it bisected several small ranches whose owners demanded a higher price for a right-of-way than offered. One farmer in particular, Luke Feeny, a retired Southern Pacific section foreman, asked why the route wasn't surveyed through the larger ranches instead of the smaller ranches. "Oh," said the engineer, "we want to come on an airline." "The hell you do," said the farmer, "If you don't know how to put in a curve, begad I will do it for you myself." He maintained the San Juan Pacific was nothing but a spur of the Southern Pacific and was being used to get a right-of-way cheaper.'

There it is "Air Line"--right through somebody else's property in the name of ease of construction.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 12/26/15 6:32 AM, 'Scott H. Haycock ' shhaycock@... [STMFC] wrote:
 
Garth,

I pretty much knew that it implied a faster, more direct route, being a SAL modeler.

I was wondering, though, since "Air Line" predates commercial air travel ( I think I've read of roads incorporating this into there name around the turn of the last century), where did the phrase come from? 

Scott Haycock


 

Scott,

Likely pure marketing in most cases, since it implies a straight (and faster) route from points A to B. For example, the 30-(or so) mile Virginia Air Line was a C&O subsidiary which provided a short-cut between their James River route and their Mountain Division in central Virginia. This was designed to speed large amounts of coal to Washington and avoid extra miles and yard time in Richmond. Why it was incorporated as a separate company is beyond me.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff





Re: What's in a name

Douglas Harding
 

I have an image  of a map dated 1857 for “The Iowa Central Air Line Rail Road”, an E/W proposal which was never built.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: What's in a name

Edward
 

The term "Air Line" was used as early as 1869 for a consortium of five railroads and related ferry services that linked New York City with Washington DC. All claimed to be double tracked at the time, a selling point for speed and presumed safety. An 8:40 AM departure at the Cortland Street ferry in New York was scheduled to arrive arrived at Washington DC by 5:20 PM in a December 30, 1869 advertisement.

This "New York and Washington Air Line Railway" consisted of the New Jersey Railroad, the Camden & Amboy, the Philadelphia  & Trenton, the Philadelphia, Wilmington & Baltimore, and the Baltimore & Ohio railroads. The first three companies were under comnmon control at the time. Eventually, they became part of the Pennsylvania Railroad. The PW&B would also go to the PRR.

In losing access to the PW&B and remain in the New York area freight and passenger market, B&O built a parallel rail line between Baltimore and Philadelphia. It also arrainged to reach New York via the Philadelphia & Reading as well as the Jersey Central railroads. B&O was somewhat evenly matched with PRR in the NY-DC passenger business, until Penn Station opened in 1910.

Ed Bommer


Re: Xmas Trees by Rail?

riverman_vt@...
 

    Market Basket in So. Cal.????  There is a grocery chain in Mass. 
and N.H. using the same name that was known as Demoula's (sp?)
in the time frame spoken of. It's seems too much of a stretch but
could they possibly be related? Market Basket has a distribution
warehouse in the Billerica, MA area that I believe may be served
by the Boston & Maine.

Happy Holidays, Don Valentine


Re: What's in a name

mwbauers
 

They  first tried to use 'straight as the crow flies’.

But that made the names too long and was too clumsy to use.

Before you dismiss that in a literal sense, it is the commonly used phrase and image that ‘Air-Line’ is meant to describe.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Dec 26, 2015, at 5:32 AM, 'Scott H. Haycock ' shhaycock@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Garth,

I pretty much knew that it implied a faster, more direct route, being a SAL modeler.

I was wondering, though, since "Air Line" predates commercial air travel ( I think I've read of roads incorporating this into there name around the turn of the last century), where did the phrase come from? 

Scott Haycock


 

Scott,

Likely pure marketing in most cases, since it implies a straight (and faster) route from points A to B. For example, the 30-(or so) mile Virginia Air Line was a C&O subsidiary which provided a short-cut between their James River route and their Mountain Division in central Virginia. This was designed to speed large amounts of coal to Washington and avoid extra miles and yard time in Richmond. Why it was incorporated as a separate company is beyond me.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


Re: What's in a name

Scott H. Haycock
 

Garth,

I pretty much knew that it implied a faster, more direct route, being a SAL modeler.

I was wondering, though, since "Air Line" predates commercial air travel ( I think I've read of roads incorporating this into there name around the turn of the last century), where did the phrase come from? 

Scott Haycock


 

Scott,

Likely pure marketing in most cases, since it implies a straight (and faster) route from points A to B. For example, the 30-(or so) mile Virginia Air Line was a C&O subsidiary which provided a short-cut between their James River route and their Mountain Division in central Virginia. This was designed to speed large amounts of coal to Washington and avoid extra miles and yard time in Richmond. Why it was incorporated as a separate company is beyond me.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff




Re: What's in a name

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Scott,

Likely pure marketing in most cases, since it implies a straight (and faster) route from points A to B. For example, the 30-(or so) mile Virginia Air Line was a C&O subsidiary which provided a short-cut between their James River route and their Mountain Division in central Virginia. This was designed to speed large amounts of coal to Washington and avoid extra miles and yard time in Richmond. Why it was incorporated as a separate company is beyond me.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 12/26/15 4:11 AM, 'Scott H. Haycock ' shhaycock@... [STMFC] wrote:
 
May I add a fifth? How about " Air Line"?

Scott Haycock


 

I realize this is a bit off topic, but this is a question that I have been thinking about for a while now.  I've done some research but have not found the rationale or reason for using the following:

  • railroad
  • railway
  • lines
  • system

What would be the reasoning for using any of the four.  For example,
  • Pennsylvania Railroad
  • Great Northern Railway
  • Southern Pacific Lines
  • New York Central System

I guess what I am really asking is what are the differences between them?


Thanks,

Rich Ramik





Re: What's in a name

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Rich,

Railroad or railway was a matter of what was listed on the articles of incorporation. Many lines that went through reorganization changed from one name to another.

As for "lines" or "system", this could imply that the railway held various corporate subsidiaries, sometimes for local political reasons (the SP was quite unpopular in California before the turn of the Century), or to meet the requirements of various states. For example, Southern Pacific Lines actually included many subsidiaries which had their own articles of incorporation, including continuing the Central Pacific on paper for many, many years. The T&NO was a completely separate corporation to meet Texas requirements for all railroads to be in-state corporations. Eventually, these were all tidied up during a reorganization. The New York Central also had many component railroads, as did the PRR, in the early 20th century. To some extent, the use of "lines" or "system" was simply marketing for the public, who really didn't care much about what corporate entity owned the track on which they were riding.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 12/25/15 9:03 PM, richramik@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

I realize this is a bit off topic, but this is a question that I have been thinking about for a while now.  I've done some research but have not found the rationale or reason for using the following:

  • railroad
  • railway
  • lines
  • system

What would be the reasoning for using any of the four.  For example,
  • Pennsylvania Railroad
  • Great Northern Railway
  • Southern Pacific Lines
  • New York Central System

I guess what I am really asking is what are the differences between them?


Thanks,

Rich Ramik



Re: What's in a name

Scott H. Haycock
 

May I add a fifth? How about " Air Line"?

Scott Haycock


 

I realize this is a bit off topic, but this is a question that I have been thinking about for a while now.  I've done some research but have not found the rationale or reason for using the following:

  • railroad
  • railway
  • lines
  • system

What would be the reasoning for using any of the four.  For example,
  • Pennsylvania Railroad
  • Great Northern Railway
  • Southern Pacific Lines
  • New York Central System

I guess what I am really asking is what are the differences between them?


Thanks,

Rich Ramik



43861 - 43880 of 183464