Date   

Re: B&O "wagon-top" cars...

Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Tony and Group,

Ships do twist and bend a great amount. I think Dennis has given a good understanding between the behavior of steel plate as used in ship construction and the behavior of the much thinner steel sheets utilized in railroad car construction. This difference explains why a riveted lap-seam construction of a railroad car roof would be prone to leakage. 

I do think that the idea of designing a “better” B&O wagon-top box car is an interesting challenge. Theoretical. Yes. But still an interesting challenge. 

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Mar 2, 2016, at 9:38 AM, Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Bill Keene wrote:

 

Also, please keep in mind that riveted steel plating is watertight because as the rivets cool they strongly clamp the steel plating together. Riveted ships float. Riveted tanks do not leak. 

      For stationary tanks or in any new construction, I agree. Railroad service, however, means that cars are subject to bending and twisting motions when moving. This most certainly CAN lead to leaks, in tank cars and other cars, and in seams like flat-seam roofs. The PRR X29 was a great pioneering design in several ways, but its roof proved prone to leakage after years in service. That's not the fault of the rivets per se, but of the lap-seam design, but the point is, the riveting did not prevent leaks.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history







Re: Covered Hoppers - for Cement

Bruce Smith
 

Folks, 

Dennis mentions car shakers.  The PRR H30 hoppers were built without mounting brackets for these on the hopper bays.  However, they were subsequently added, indicating that gravity alone was probably not quite sufficient to clear the hopper.  The “man in the field” solution of a sledge hammer was not acceptable due to the damage induced ;)  Are shaker brackets a common feature of covered hoppers used for cement?

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Mar 2, 2016, at 10:25 AM, STMFC@... wrote:






---In STMFC@..., <water.kresse@...> wrote :

Did they set up temporary trestles close to the construction site to unload the dry cement-mix between the tracks into conveyers to load local dump trucks to carry it to the mixer next to the pouring site?  Early bottom dump doors just slid sideways and gravity did the rest?
Al Kresse
==============

No need for a trestle. Someplace I have photos of a portable concrete batch plant that was set up semi-permanently along the Soo Line in northern Wisconsin for years. The dump pit for the cement hoppers was exceedingly small; a welded steel box that fit under the rails between two track ties, and had a five or six inch diameter auger in it. I don't think the box was more than 12" wide. The standard outlet gate for ! a cement car was a sliding gate opened by a rack and pinion, so it could be slowly cracked open until the cement stated to flow when the car "shaker" (vibrator) was turned on.

Dennis Storzek




Re: Northern Pacific gondola pics please

Steve Joyner <bnsteve1216@...>
 

Thanks Todd,

I have your NP Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment book.
It is an excellent reference book I have utilized many times. I am also a member
of the NPRHA and have many years of the Mainstreeter. I am looking in particular
at the older composite side gons. Did the NP transport sugar beets in these with
extended sides like other railroads did? Any photos of such would be greatly appreciated.

Steve in Bellingham WA.
--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 2/26/16, sullivant41@yahoo.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] Re: Northern Pacific gondola pics please
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 26, 2016, 4:36 PM


 









Hi Steve,

You
could start with a copy of Morning Sun's NP Color Guide
book, since there are 12 color photos of NP gondolas in
it.  You might also look on the NP society's pages to
see if there are any back issues of their magazine that have
articles on gondolas, or ask members if tehy know of any
articles.  Depending on the era you are modeling, you might
look at the Westerfield site for CDs of Official Railway
Equipment Registers (ORERs) for your years of interest. 
Each of those editions of this railway industry publication
listed the entire roster of NP freight cars as of the date
of publication, all the number series, the exceptions (cars
in the series with special equipment or different dimensions
or capacities), along with the overall dimensions of cars in
each series.  After that, it's a hunt for photos of
cars in specific series that interest you, and that's
best done through the vendors of B&W and color prints. 
Since that's sort of a different topic, so I'll let
others guide you there.

Todd Sullivan
Liverpool, NY









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Re: B&O "wagon-top" cars...

Tony Thompson
 

Bill Keene wrote:

 

Also, please keep in mind that riveted steel plating is watertight because as the rivets cool they strongly clamp the steel plating together. Riveted ships float. Riveted tanks do not leak. 

      For stationary tanks or in any new construction, I agree. Railroad service, however, means that cars are subject to bending and twisting motions when moving. This most certainly CAN lead to leaks, in tank cars and other cars, and in seams like flat-seam roofs. The PRR X29 was a great pioneering design in several ways, but its roof proved prone to leakage after years in service. That's not the fault of the rivets per se, but of the lap-seam design, but the point is, the riveting did not prevent leaks.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Covered Hoppers - for Cement

Aley, Jeff A
 

Tony,

 

                Thanks.  I had not yet taken the time to look up the car #’s in the ORER (which is why I provided them in my posting).  I’ll have to go back and look to see if the error in car type is in the original or in my transcription.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 11:15 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Covered Hoppers - for Cement

 

 

 Jeff Aley wrote:



 

Of those 53 cars, 30 were box cars (probably cement in barrels), 20 were in LO’s (one B&O, one HWCX, and the rest UP), and 3 were Gons (CBQ 15366, TNO 61598, and NKP 5371).

 

    Perhaps it's my lack of imagination, but gondolas of cement are kind of hard to picture. Small nit: T&NO 61598 was a box car, as was NKP 5371 and CBQ 15366.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 

 


Re: RTR UTLX tank car

Ed Holler <watchmeister@...>
 

Hello all-
  I agree. We could use good models of the UTLX X-3 tank cars. Especially since Sunshine is no longer producing.

Ed Holler


On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 8:56 AM, "cepropst@q.com [STMFC]" wrote:


 
I placed a spread sheet in the files awhile ago of train lists I transcribed from a conductor’s book. About a months worth. Since, two more of this guys books have surfaced and I’m doing them too. Although not to the extent of looking each car up in the ORERs. [surprised no one has called me out on mistakes] When done I should have over a years worth of trains.
 
Anyway, at least 95% of the tank cars are UTLX. I’ve heard about an RTR model coming to the market for years now. Anyone have any insight on this project?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa



Re: Covered Hoppers - for Cement

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <water.kresse@...> wrote :

Did they set up temporary trestles close to the construction site to unload the dry cement-mix between the tracks into conveyers to load local dump trucks to carry it to the mixer next to the pouring site?  Early bottom dump doors just slid sideways and gravity did the rest?
Al Kresse
==============

No need for a trestle. Someplace I have photos of a portable concrete batch plant that was set up semi-permanently along the Soo Line in northern Wisconsin for years. The dump pit for the cement hoppers was exceedingly small; a welded steel box that fit under the rails between two track ties, and had a five or six inch diameter auger in it. I don't think the box was more than 12" wide. The standard outlet gate for a cement car was a sliding gate opened by a rack and pinion, so it could be slowly cracked open until the cement stated to flow when the car "shaker" (vibrator) was turned on.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Covered Hoppers - for Cement

water.kresse@...
 

Did they set up temporary trestles close to the construction site to unload the dry cement-mix between the tracks into conveyers to load local dump trucks to carry it to the mixer next to the pouring site?  Early bottom dump doors just slid sideways and gravity did the rest?
Al Kresse
 


From: "cepropst@q.com [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 8:49:42 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Covered Hoppers - for Cement

 

I have a friend who worked at one of the local cement plants as a clean sealer in the mid-late 50s, early 60s. He’s told me that in mid-late summer 100 car days were not uncommon. I think he was talking box cars (bagged product) I should see him tomorrow, I’ll ask about covered hopper percentages. Keep in mind the (locally) no trucks haul cement from plants till 60.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa



RTR UTLX tank car

Clark Propst
 

I placed a spread sheet in the files awhile ago of train lists I transcribed from a conductor’s book. About a months worth. Since, two more of this guys books have surfaced and I’m doing them too. Although not to the extent of looking each car up in the ORERs. [surprised no one has called me out on mistakes] When done I should have over a years worth of trains.
 
Anyway, at least 95% of the tank cars are UTLX. I’ve heard about an RTR model coming to the market for years now. Anyone have any insight on this project?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Covered Hoppers - for Cement

Clark Propst
 

I have a friend who worked at one of the local cement plants as a clean sealer in the mid-late 50s, early 60s. He’s told me that in mid-late summer 100 car days were not uncommon. I think he was talking box cars (bagged product) I should see him tomorrow, I’ll ask about covered hopper percentages. Keep in mind the (locally) no trucks haul cement from plants till 60.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: B&O "wagon-top" cars...

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <wakeene@...> wrote :

Also, please keep in mind that riveted steel plating is watertight because as the rivets cool they strongly clamp the steel plating together. Riveted ships float. Riveted tanks do not leak. 

=========================

Riveted boilers, too... but only if they are caulked. Now, this sense of the word doesn't mean sticky elastomer, but rather spreading the edge of the sheet with a blunt chisel like tool to force the corner tightly against the adjacent sheet. But sheets the thickness of those used for car construction are too thin to be caulked in this fashion, and so have to rely on something flexible introduced in the joint as it's made up, in this case car cement. Note the material squeezed out from behind the edge of the plate in the seal below the man's foot in this photo I linked earlier (which Wahoo now won't let me link again :-(

One can always do additional calking later in the life of a ship, tank, or boiler, but lap seam car roofs don't provide an easy way to tighten the seams, so to speak.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Covered Hoppers - for Cement

RICH CHAPIN
 

The July 1931 ORER lists a first time entry,  cars # 50000 to 50017 listed as “cement, steel hopper bottom”, no class designation. 

 

In the May 1932 ORER, this car series had been expanded to 50029, assigned class LO, and described as “special type, steel hatchway roof, hopper bottom”

 

The LV also operated gondolas [series 27200] carrying air activated containers for cement. Ten of these were a new entry in the July 1936 ORER.

 

Rich Chapin


Re: Covered Hoppers - for Cement

Tony Thompson
 

 Jeff Aley wrote:

 
Of those 53 cars, 30 were box cars (probably cement in barrels), 20 were in LO’s (one B&O, one HWCX, and the rest UP), and 3 were Gons (CBQ 15366, TNO 61598, and NKP 5371).

    Perhaps it's my lack of imagination, but gondolas of cement are kind of hard to picture. Small nit: T&NO 61598 was a box car, as was NKP 5371 and CBQ 15366.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: B&O "wagon-top" cars...

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Even so, Dennis, simply riveting a strip of steel across that joint would have improved the sealing of the seam. The side lap joints (I had not thought that through, either) were much less likely to leak, as the rib was very stiff (comparatively, at least) and so things were not going to “work” as much, but the ridge joint was surely going to “work” as the car moved. Another layer of steel, perhaps thicker, would have strengthened that seam too.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 11:43 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: B&O "wagon-top" cars...



---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote :

Since as an architect, I’m familiar with metal roofing techniques it seems (seams?) very odd to me that the joint between the two sides of the B&O cars wasn’t made a standing seam joint, with the top edge of the sheets turned up an inch or so, then covered with an inverted U-shaped seam cover, and then all riveted together.

Actually, on second thought, why didn’t the B&O use single strips of steel sheet from one side sill over the top to the other side? Expansion and contraction might have been an issue, but still, that would eliminate that lap joint at the ridge line.
===============

Second question first... they would be a pain to form, and even worse to handle. However, the real reason is... After I pointed the ridge seam out in my message, it dawned on me that the entire perimeter of each sheet is essentially a flat lap seam, where it lays over, and is single riveted to, the flange of the post/carline pressing.

When you think about it, however, this design is a contemporary of the PRR X29, which also used a lap seam roof. The advantage was a much more solid roof, which should have reduced the "weaving" that caused lesser metal roofs to leak, so hopefully, the seams would stay tight. It eventually became apparent that the standing seams that Mr. Murphy was using on his panel roof worked even better, so Pennsy made the change, as did the ARA on their new recommended standard boxcar.

Unfortunately, there was no good way to adapt the standing seam concept to the existing wagontop cars.

Dennis Storzek










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: B&O "wagon-top" cars...

Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Schuyler,

As an Architect now retired, who believes that the soul of a building lives in the details, the thought of designing a “better” B&O wagon-top box car is an interesting challenge.

Also, please keep in mind that riveted steel plating is watertight because as the rivets cool they strongly clamp the steel plating together. Riveted ships float. Riveted tanks do not leak. 

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Mar 1, 2016, at 8:27 PM, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Since as an architect, I’m familiar with metal roofing techniques it seems (seams?) very odd to me that the joint between the two sides of the B&O cars wasn’t made a standing seam joint, with the top edge of the sheets turned up an inch or so, then covered with an inverted U-shaped seam cover, and then all riveted together.

Actually, on second thought, why didn’t the B&O use single strips of steel sheet from one side sill over the top to the other side? Expansion and contraction might have been an issue, but still, that would eliminate that lap joint at the ridge line.

Schuyler

Tatum's design eliminated the eaves seam, making that design unique. His design also incorporated the side rib framing with the roof framing as likely did the CC&F car.

Ed Bommer 

===========
Of course, Tatum's design introduced a lap seam flat on the roof at the centerline that the Murphy panel roof designs avoided, and flat lap seams on roofs were prone to leak.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7654/16990047545_e6b46b9540_c.jpg



<https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7654/16990047545_e6b46b9540_c.jpg> Image removed by sender. image

<https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7654/16990047545_e6b46b9540_c.jpg> https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7654/16990047545_e6b46b95... 



<https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7654/16990047545_e6b46b9540_c.jpg> View on farm8.staticflickr.com 

Preview by Yahoo 




Dennis Storzek

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Re: B&O "wagon-top" cars...

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote :

Since as an architect, I’m familiar with metal roofing techniques it seems (seams?) very odd to me that the joint between the two sides of the B&O cars wasn’t made a standing seam joint, with the top edge of the sheets turned up an inch or so, then covered with an inverted U-shaped seam cover, and then all riveted together.

Actually, on second thought, why didn’t the B&O use single strips of steel sheet from one side sill over the top to the other side? Expansion and contraction might have been an issue, but still, that would eliminate that lap joint at the ridge line.
===============

Second question first... they would be a pain to form, and even worse to handle. However, the real reason is... After I pointed the ridge seam out in my message, it dawned on me that the entire perimeter of each sheet is essentially a flat lap seam, where it lays over, and is single riveted to, the flange of the post/carline pressing.

When you think about it, however, this design is a contemporary of the PRR X29, which also used a lap seam roof. The advantage was a much more solid roof, which should have reduced the "weaving" that caused lesser metal roofs to leak, so hopefully, the seams would stay tight. It eventually became apparent that the standing seams that Mr. Murphy was using on his panel roof worked even better, so Pennsy made the change, as did the ARA on their new recommended standard boxcar.

Unfortunately, there was no good way to adapt the standing seam concept to the existing wagontop cars.

Dennis Storzek




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: GATC Lightweight Box Cars

Ed Hawkins
 


On Mar 1, 2016, at 10:25 PM, ron.merrick@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Is this the car that became ATSF 300000?


Ron,
Yes, ATSF 300000 was the former GABX 1940. It’s a bit confusing to track the history because the build date stencils changed a couple of times ranging from 11-38, to 4-39, and finally 1-41. 
Ed Hawkins


Re: B&O "wagon-top" cars...

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Since as an architect, I’m familiar with metal roofing techniques it seems (seams?) very odd to me that the joint between the two sides of the B&O cars wasn’t made a standing seam joint, with the top edge of the sheets turned up an inch or so, then covered with an inverted U-shaped seam cover, and then all riveted together.



Actually, on second thought, why didn’t the B&O use single strips of steel sheet from one side sill over the top to the other side? Expansion and contraction might have been an issue, but still, that would eliminate that lap joint at the ridge line.



Schuyler



Tatum's design eliminated the eaves seam, making that design unique. His design also incorporated the side rib framing with the roof framing as likely did the CC&F car.

Ed Bommer



===========
Of course, Tatum's design introduced a lap seam flat on the roof at the centerline that the Murphy panel roof designs avoided, and flat lap seams on roofs were prone to leak.

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Dennis Storzek







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Re: GATC Lightweight Box Cars

mopacfirst
 

Is this the car that became ATSF 300000?


Ron Merrick


Re: GATC Lightweight Box Cars

Allan Smith
 

There are two photos in the 1940 CBC on pages 351-361. They show both sides of the car There doesn't seem to be a special paint scheme, it appears to be a light BCR color, the tack boards and the trucks and underframe  are painted black, so there is a contrast color line. The lettering apears to be white. The same photo is on page 119 of Santa Fe Boxcars 1869-1953.

Al Smith
Sonora CA


On Friday, February 26, 2016 12:58 PM, "Ed Hawkins hawk0621@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 

On Feb 26, 2016, at 2:48 PM, Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

      I don't know the color, but have seen a B&W print of GABX 1940, which was a dark color with white lettering.

Tony,
Yes, I have that photo, and I’ve also seen the car in trade-publication ads.

It’s hard to say if the cars were mineral brown as was common during the late 1930s with white stencils or if GATC decided to use a "more-spiffy” scheme, especially since they displayed GABX 1940 at the 1939 N.Y World’s Fair. 
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


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