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Re: [EXTERNAL] The History of Shipping Bulk Cement
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Jim;
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I have some records of loads in the area of the country I grew up (w PA), for various users of cement and sand, and the conversion of cement being hauled in covered hoppers was underway in the mid-forties, with large numbers of covered hoppers being purchased by most local roads to serve that traffic. Correspondence I have read indicated that shippers wanted something impervious to weather, and the RRs and private manufacturers did their best to provide "tight" cars with nicely sealed hatches and hoppers. The peak of purchases came in the mid-fifties, by which time many other commodities were switching over to covered hopper. In that timeframe, they did not generally travel far afield. The few distant road cars I saw were carrying commodities you could not get in the region, like fluorspar or gypsum or such. Cement was produced all over the country, as far as I have been able to tell. Elden Gatwood
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 2:03 PM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] The History of Shipping Bulk Cement Hi all, This thread was born as "Covered Hoppers - for Cement". Although there have been a few posts on the referenced thread this part of my question has gone essentially unanswered ... What I'm looking for is the kind of -general- historical information that covers questions such as 1) When were cement hoppers commonly in use (as opposed to the earliest experiments - which I know about )? 2) Was I wrong in my general statements about how far -most- bulk cement was moved in covered hoppers? All - I am not talking about concrete - I'm interested in the bulk cement hauls (before, during, and after the transition to using 'dedicated service' covered hoppers). At least one thing I learned from the prior thread was about the use of "bulk containers in gons" in the early days. Thanks for that detail/piece of information. - Jim B.
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60103
paul.doggett2472 <paul.doggett2472@...>
Flying Scotsman on the Turntable at NRM York.
Photo taken by my friend Roly Powell Paul Sent from Samsung mobile [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: P2K 10K tank car replacement railing
Bob Christensen
I saw this conversation and remembered something I learned from airplane modelers. The .019 Detail Associates wire fits inside the .8mm tubing made by Albion Alloys. I just tested it out. You can cut the tubing to length using a scalpel. You place the tubing on a hard surface and roll it back and forth a few times at the spot where you want to cut it. Then just snap it off and it breaks clean. I tried it and was amazed I could get usable pieces less than 2mm long.
Bob Christensen
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Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement
Guy Wilber
Clark wrote:
"4 97lb sacks equal 1 barrel of cement." Clark, 94 Lb. bag is the standard. Regards, Guy Wilber Reno, Nevada
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Re: AAR 70-ton flat cars
Scott
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Not ignored at all, but I don't know of any specific SURVEY style article that covers all of them at once. I have literally scores of emails about these cars, and there have been articles about modeling them -prior- to the introduction of the Sunshine and Intermountain models. Tim O'Connor
Has there been an article covering the AAR 70-ton standard flat cars?
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Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement
Clark Propst
You need to have the ability to unload and transport a product in house.
Here in the Upper Midwest most cement was sold to lumber yards. First in
barrels, then cloth bags, then paper sacks – still sold at barrel pricing after
the end of this list timeframe. 4 97lb sacks equal 1 barrel of cement. It wasn’t
till batch plants became common did the scales tip toward bulk cement in covered
hoppers. Excluding highway or other large jobs. Other areas of the country may
differ?
Clark
Propst Mason City Iowa
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AAR 70-ton flat cars
D. Scott Chatfield
Has there been an article covering the AAR 70-ton standard flat cars? The 50-ton cars were well covered after Proto:2000 released their model, but have the 70-tonners been ignored?
Scott Chatfield
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Re: DESPERATELY SEEKING DECALS
Justin May <jmay59@...>
I am trying to find a Microscale decal set #87239. This is for Southern Pacific copvered hoppers. Need two sets. Bill, According to Microscale, 87-1390 replaced sets 87-239 and 87-240. The newer set shows in stock at Microscale, Walthers, and several online vendors. Justin May
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Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement
mark_landgraf
Prior to the bulk loading of cement, it was shipped in bags in box cars. Many of this countries transcontinental highways, built in the 1920s were built this way. In the 1935-1937 is when dedicated fleet of covered hoppers and cement bulk containers started showing up. NE Pennsylvania was the starting area. These dedicated cars had steep slope sheet - about 80 degrees - that provided easier self unloading of the dense cement. A retrofitted coal hopper - with 120 degree slope sheets - did not self unload very well. Much cement needed to be either vibrated out or manually assisted out of the cars. This why the retro cars did not catch on. The RRs bought the dedicated covered hoppers. Distance shipped - every ton mile costs money. The closest suitable product will be the cheapest. You would only buy a premium product if you needed a premium product, but even then the closest will likely be the cheapest. Mark Landgraf Albany NY Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
Hi all,
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DESPERATELY SEEKING DECALS
WILLIAM PARDIE
I am trying to find a Microscale decal set #87239. This is for Southern Pacific copvered hoppers. Need two sets.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Bill Pardie
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Re: P2K 10K tank car replacement railing
Tony Thompson
Fenton Wells wrote:
I agree with Al Brown's recommendation. I use the DA brass wire, which is indeed 0.019 inches. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: P2K 10K tank car replacement railing
Thanks Al, and by the way I was inspired by your tank car clinic in Cocoa this year. I'll give it a try. I have some .19 from Detail associates i think
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:21 PM, abrown@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
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Re: P2K 10K tank car replacement railing
al_brown03
Hi Fenton, I don't know of a source for replacement handrails made specifically for the P2K tank. But in general, I find that plastic tank-car handrails (like plastic sill steps) don't long survive contact with my three left elbows and two right thumbs. In my hands, wire handrails are far more durable. To replace the P2K handrail you'll need handrails and joiners and stanchions. Precision Scale #32110 stanchions are beautiful; for handrails, I've been using .015" OD phosphor-bronze wire (PB holds its shape better than brass), joined with .016" ID plastic tubing from smallparts.com. Tony Thompson points out that my handrail is really too light: should be .019" OD. I don't know of a source of .019" PB wire, but Tichy supplies .020"; if I can find .021" ID tubing, I'll try it. The stanchions will need to be drilled to accept wire that large. Ted Culotta uses a related technique, described in one of his RMC articles: joins handrails with *steel* tubing, cut with a cut-off disc in a Dremel tool. (If the tube is steel it needn't fit quite so tightly on the handrail.) I lack Ted's skill with a Dremel, have tried it and failed. Others think it isn't a big deal, though. YMMV -- Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.
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Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement
Jim here is the M&StL cement hopper purchase history. 1940 buy-new 10 cov hoppers 70051 to 70069 29'-3" 140,000 cement service GA 1947 buy-new 50 cov hoppers 70101 to 70199 29'-3" 140,000 cement service P-S 1955 buy-new 40 cov hoppers 70201 to 70279 29'-3" 140,000 cement service P-S 1956 buy-new 50 cov hoppers 70301 to 70399 29'-3" 140,000 cement service P-S 1957 buy-new 100 cov hoppers 70401 to 70599 29'-3" 140,000 cement service P-S
As you can an early purchase let to major purchase after WWII, then major purchases in the mid 50’s.
The M&StL served two cement plants in Mason City IA, most production going north into Minnesota. Minnesota being one of the few states with out deposits suitable for making cement. The M&StL also served two cement plants in Des Moines IA, which served the central Iowa area.
Doug Harding
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P2K 10K tank car replacement railing
Does anyone have a replacement handrail for a P2K 10K gal tank car or who has them to sell? I couldn't find them at Walthers. Or suggestions for making a replacement. Thanks in advance Fenton Wells
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Re: canopy cement/plastic kit from hell
thmsdmpsy
I think you need to clean the mold release from the kit, my felt greasy so that's what I did. Tom Dempsey, Spokane, WA
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Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement
Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
Jim,
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There were wooden covered hoppers as early as the 1890s, and special steel cars in the 1920s. Checked my Gregg Cyclopedias: Greenville built small 50-ton hoppers for the Erie in 1934. The PRR H30 car dates from around 1935, as does the B&O N31. There are some other cars that date from the late 1930s like some home-built WM cars from 1937. I see NYC Enterprise cars from 1939, L&NE drop-frame cars from 1938 and the NKP bought AC&F 70-ton cars in 1939. That seems like the watershed year. Does this help? Yours Aye, Garth Groff
On 3/3/16 2:03 PM, jimbetz
jimbetz@... [STMFC] wrote:
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Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement
Ray Breyer
Common? Mid to late 1930s. The AMC roads were buying them as-needed to cover increased concrete production for WPA projects all over the Great Lakes region. They were also converting plain hoppers into LOs for the same traffic. The Nickel Plate started converting USRA twins into covered hoppers, and by 1936 had converted 40 of them to dry cement cars (and another 19 for dolomite or soda ash). They bought 50 new LOs in 1937 and 1939 for cement service. The W&LE bought 13 LOs new for cement service in 1937. The C&O and PM did the same thing, but I don't have those numbers in front of me. Several Midwestern roads, especially the IC and Rock Island, also bought new ACF-built covered hoppers for cement service before WWII. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
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Re: Northern Pacific gondola pics please
It's CENTRAL Washington -- think Yakima and Ellensburg
As Tim said lot's of beet growing in Southwest Washington including the Walla Walla Valley Railway using NP gondolas.
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Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement
Tony Thompson
Jim Betz wrote:
No. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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