Date   

Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement

mark_landgraf
 

Prior to the bulk loading of cement, it was shipped in bags in box cars. Many of this countries transcontinental highways, built in the 1920s were built this way. 

In the 1935-1937 is when dedicated fleet of covered hoppers and cement bulk containers started showing up. NE Pennsylvania was the starting area. These dedicated cars had steep slope sheet - about 80 degrees - that provided easier self unloading of the dense cement. A retrofitted coal hopper - with 120 degree slope sheets - did not self unload very well. Much cement needed to be either vibrated out or manually assisted out of the cars.  This why the retro cars did not catch on. The RRs bought the dedicated covered hoppers. 

Distance shipped - every ton mile costs money. The closest suitable product will be the cheapest. You would only buy a premium product if you needed a premium product, but even then the closest will likely be the cheapest. 

Mark Landgraf
Albany NY

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
From: jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC]
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 2:03 PM
To: STMFC@...
Reply To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] The History of Shipping Bulk Cement

 

Hi all,

This thread was born as "Covered Hoppers - for Cement".

Although there have been a few posts on the referenced thread
this part of my question has gone essentially unanswered ...

What I'm looking for is the kind of -general- historical information
that covers questions such as

1) When were cement hoppers commonly in use (as opposed
to the earliest experiments - which I know about )?

2) Was I wrong in my general statements about how far -most-
bulk cement was moved in covered hoppers?

All - I am not talking about concrete - I'm interested in the
bulk cement hauls (before, during, and after the transition to
using 'dedicated service' covered hoppers).
At least one thing I learned from the prior thread was about
the use of "bulk containers in gons" in the early days. Thanks
for that detail/piece of information.
- Jim B.



DESPERATELY SEEKING DECALS

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

I am trying to find a Microscale decal set #87239. This is for Southern Pacific copvered hoppers. Need two sets.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Bill Pardie


Re: P2K 10K tank car replacement railing

Tony Thompson
 

Fenton Wells wrote:

 
Thanks Al, and by the way I was inspired by your tank car clinic in Cocoa this year.  I'll give it a try.  I have some .19 from Detail associates i think

   I agree with Al Brown's recommendation. I use the DA brass wire, which is indeed 0.019 inches.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: P2K 10K tank car replacement railing

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks Al, and by the way I was inspired by your tank car clinic in Cocoa this year.  I'll give it a try.  I have some .19 from Detail associates i think

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:21 PM, abrown@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Hi Fenton,


I don't know of a source for replacement handrails made specifically for the P2K tank. But in general, I find that plastic tank-car handrails (like plastic sill steps) don't long survive contact with my three left elbows and two right thumbs. In my hands, wire handrails are far more durable. To replace the P2K handrail you'll need handrails and joiners and stanchions. Precision Scale #32110 stanchions are beautiful; for handrails, I've been using .015" OD phosphor-bronze wire (PB holds its shape better than brass), joined with .016" ID plastic tubing from smallparts.com. Tony Thompson points out that my handrail is really too light: should be .019" OD. I don't know of a source of .019" PB wire, but Tichy supplies .020"; if I can find .021" ID tubing, I'll try it. The stanchions will need to be drilled to accept wire that large.


Ted Culotta uses a related technique, described in one of his RMC articles: joins handrails with *steel* tubing, cut with a cut-off disc in a Dremel tool. (If the tube is steel it needn't fit quite so tightly on the handrail.) I lack Ted's skill with a Dremel, have tried it and failed. Others think it isn't a big deal, though.


YMMV --


Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Re: P2K 10K tank car replacement railing

al_brown03
 

Hi Fenton,


I don't know of a source for replacement handrails made specifically for the P2K tank. But in general, I find that plastic tank-car handrails (like plastic sill steps) don't long survive contact with my three left elbows and two right thumbs. In my hands, wire handrails are far more durable. To replace the P2K handrail you'll need handrails and joiners and stanchions. Precision Scale #32110 stanchions are beautiful; for handrails, I've been using .015" OD phosphor-bronze wire (PB holds its shape better than brass), joined with .016" ID plastic tubing from smallparts.com. Tony Thompson points out that my handrail is really too light: should be .019" OD. I don't know of a source of .019" PB wire, but Tichy supplies .020"; if I can find .021" ID tubing, I'll try it. The stanchions will need to be drilled to accept wire that large.


Ted Culotta uses a related technique, described in one of his RMC articles: joins handrails with *steel* tubing, cut with a cut-off disc in a Dremel tool. (If the tube is steel it needn't fit quite so tightly on the handrail.) I lack Ted's skill with a Dremel, have tried it and failed. Others think it isn't a big deal, though.


YMMV --


Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement

Douglas Harding
 

Jim here is the M&StL cement hopper purchase history.

1940       buy-new              10           cov hoppers                       70051 to 70069  29'-3"    140,000                 cement service                 GA

1947       buy-new              50           cov hoppers                       70101 to 70199  29'-3"    140,000                 cement service                 P-S

1955       buy-new              40           cov hoppers                       70201 to 70279  29'-3"    140,000                 cement service                 P-S

1956       buy-new              50           cov hoppers                       70301 to 70399  29'-3"    140,000                 cement service                 P-S

1957       buy-new              100         cov hoppers                       70401 to 70599  29'-3"    140,000                 cement service                 P-S

 

As you can an early purchase let to major purchase after WWII, then major purchases in the mid 50’s.

 

The M&StL served two cement plants in Mason City IA, most production going north into Minnesota. Minnesota being one of the few states with out deposits suitable for making cement.

The M&StL also served two cement plants in Des Moines IA, which served the central Iowa area.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


P2K 10K tank car replacement railing

O Fenton Wells
 

Does anyone have a replacement handrail for a P2K 10K gal tank car or who has them to sell?  I couldn't find them at Walthers.  Or suggestions for making a replacement.

Thanks in advance

Fenton Wells




Re: canopy cement/plastic kit from hell

thmsdmpsy
 

I think you need to clean the mold release from the kit, my felt greasy so that's what I did.  Tom Dempsey, Spokane, WA



Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Jim,

There were wooden covered hoppers as early as the 1890s, and special steel cars in the 1920s. Checked my Gregg Cyclopedias: Greenville built small 50-ton hoppers for the Erie in 1934. The PRR H30 car dates from around 1935, as does the B&O N31. There are some other cars that date from the late 1930s like some home-built WM cars from 1937. I see NYC Enterprise cars from 1939, L&NE drop-frame cars from 1938 and the NKP bought AC&F 70-ton cars in 1939. That seems like the watershed year.

Does this help?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 3/3/16 2:03 PM, jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Hi all,

This thread was born as "Covered Hoppers - for Cement".

Although there have been a few posts on the referenced thread
this part of my question has gone essentially unanswered ...

What I'm looking for is the kind of -general- historical information
that covers questions such as

1) When were cement hoppers commonly in use (as opposed
to the earliest experiments - which I know about )?

2) Was I wrong in my general statements about how far -most-
bulk cement was moved in covered hoppers?

All - I am not talking about concrete - I'm interested in the
bulk cement hauls (before, during, and after the transition to
using 'dedicated service' covered hoppers).
At least one thing I learned from the prior thread was about
the use of "bulk containers in gons" in the early days. Thanks
for that detail/piece of information.
- Jim B.



Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement

Ray Breyer
 

Common? Mid to late 1930s. The AMC roads were buying them as-needed to cover increased concrete production for WPA projects all over the Great Lakes region. They were also converting plain hoppers into LOs for the same traffic.
 
The Nickel Plate started converting USRA twins into covered hoppers, and by 1936 had converted 40 of them to dry cement cars (and another 19 for dolomite or soda ash). They bought 50 new LOs in 1937 and 1939 for cement service. The W&LE bought 13 LOs new for cement service in 1937. The C&O and PM did the same thing, but I don't have those numbers in front of me. Several Midwestern roads, especially the IC and Rock Island, also bought new ACF-built covered hoppers for cement service before WWII.

Ray Breyer 
 Elgin, IL



From: "jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 1:03 PM
Subject: [STMFC] The History of Shipping Bulk Cement

Hi all,

  This thread was born as "Covered Hoppers - for Cement".

    Although there have been a few posts on the referenced thread
this part of my question has gone essentially unanswered ...

  What I'm looking for is the kind of -general- historical information
that covers questions such as

    1) When were cement hoppers commonly in use (as opposed
          to the earliest experiments - which I know about )?

    2) Was I wrong in my general statements about how far -most-
          bulk cement was moved in covered hoppers?

  All - I am not talking about concrete - I'm interested in the
bulk cement hauls (before, during, and after the transition to
using 'dedicated service' covered hoppers).
  At least one thing I learned from the prior thread was about
the use of "bulk containers in gons" in the early days.  Thanks
for that detail/piece of information.
                        - Jim B.


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Posted by: jimbetz <jimbetz@...>
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Re: Northern Pacific gondola pics please

Tim O'Connor
 


It's CENTRAL Washington -- think Yakima and Ellensburg





As Tim said lot's of beet growing in Southwest Washington including the Walla Walla Valley Railway using NP gondolas.

    Wouldn't that be southEASTERN Washington? Or am I missing something?

Tony Thompson 


Re: The History of Shipping Bulk Cement

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Betz wrote:

1) When were cement hoppers commonly in use (as opposed to the earliest experiments - which I know about )?


      Right after the end of World War II, many railroads were buying covered hoppers, the great majority for cement. See the recent issues of RPC for more info.

2) Was I wrong in my general statements about how far -most-bulk cement was moved in covered hoppers?


       No.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





The History of Shipping Bulk Cement

Jim Betz
 

Hi all,

This thread was born as "Covered Hoppers - for Cement".

Although there have been a few posts on the referenced thread
this part of my question has gone essentially unanswered ...

What I'm looking for is the kind of -general- historical information
that covers questions such as

1) When were cement hoppers commonly in use (as opposed
to the earliest experiments - which I know about )?

2) Was I wrong in my general statements about how far -most-
bulk cement was moved in covered hoppers?

All - I am not talking about concrete - I'm interested in the
bulk cement hauls (before, during, and after the transition to
using 'dedicated service' covered hoppers).
At least one thing I learned from the prior thread was about
the use of "bulk containers in gons" in the early days. Thanks
for that detail/piece of information.
- Jim B.


Re: Northern Pacific gondola pics please

railsnw@...
 

Whoop's, yeah you are right. Not many sugar beets growing in the timber lands in southwest Washington :)

Rich


Re: Northern Pacific gondola pics please

Tony Thompson
 

As Tim said lot's of beet growing in Southwest Washington including the Walla Walla Valley Railway using NP gondolas.


    Wouldn't that be southEASTERN Washington? Or am I missing something?

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Online Shippers Guides

Tony Thompson
 

Allen Montgomery wrote:

 
I purchased the '38 UP guide from an outfit called Rails Unlimited out of Elgin, Illinois. Mostly midwest roads, but reasonably priced.
__
 
That's the source I originally recommended. Very good reproduction, fair prices. It's at:


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Covered Hoppers - for Cement

Brad Andonian
 

Fellas,

The NYC had a plethora of gondolas with acf cement cannisters.    Bill Davis offers them in ho; I have a good number in O from Rich Yoder and Robert Parri.

Here is a link:
These cars ran from the Bethlehem cement district to the jersey side of the Hudson River.     Many were carfloated into NYC for distribution.
Brad Andonian

PS: there is a post on this in the files somewhere!


Re: Northern Pacific gondola pics please

railsnw@...
 

As Tim said lot's of beet growing in Southwest Washington including the Walla Walla Valley Railway using NP gondolas.

As to Caswell gondolas, SP&S bought used ones from ATSF and converted them to wood chip cars.

Rich Wilkens


Re: canopy cement/plastic kit from hell

 

I used Testor’s liquid cement on mine.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 10:27 AM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] canopy cement/plastic kit from hell







I'm not surprised Central Valley had only one injection molded freight car kit.



The parts are very nice but getting them together is a lot of work. The plastic is hard to cut/sand. Plastruct solvent cement works, but evaporates almost immediately.



Neither Ambroid or Duco cement held the parts I had to fiddle with. Trying everything I could think of (even took out the dreaded tube of Goo) I tried Pacer canopy cement and it worked like a charm.



Used the canopy cement to put on the roof walk and it worked great.



I just hope the canopy cement paints OK, unlike white glue.



That plastic would be good for stirrup steps. It's definitely not ordinary styrene.



Ed Mines


canopy cement/plastic kit from hell

ed_mines
 

I'm not surprised Central Valley had only one  injection molded freight car kit.


The parts are very nice but getting them together is a lot of work. The plastic is hard to cut/sand. Plastruct solvent cement works, but evaporates almost immediately.


Neither Ambroid or Duco cement held the parts I had to fiddle with. Trying everything I could think of (even took out the dreaded tube of Goo) I tried Pacer canopy cement and it worked like a charm.


Used the canopy cement to put on the roof walk and it worked great.


I just hope the canopy cement paints OK, unlike white glue.


That plastic would be good for stirrup steps. It's definitely not ordinary styrene.


Ed Mines

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