freight car red and black paint

ed_mines

The recent covered hopper discussion makes me wonder why many railroads painted their freight cars with 2 different color paints. Why not just one?

Was black paint cheaper?

Black house cars would be hotter inside in the summer.

Rust would be easier to spot on black cars.

Ed Mines

Re: Arcane question of the week

Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>

The car standards for the La Mesa Model Railroad Club are by far the most
stringent standards that I'm aware of, and I pasted in the center of gravity

I. Center of Gravity

1. Cars should be constructed to obtain the lowest center of gravity. The
minimum CG for any car is CG30.

2. ANY weight added to a car to make its' required weight should be kept
as low as possible (NMRA RP20.1).

3. The center of gravity of each piece of rolling stock (locomotives
excepted) shall be determined on a Protractor or Tilt Table and noted as its
Center of Gravity Index, (or CG)expressed in degrees, i.e., CG35. This shall
be the farthest deflection from the normal upright (0 degree) or vertical
position to which the car can be tilted, from a flat, level, horizontal
surface (90 degrees) on which it stands without tipping over. This will be
determined by using a vertical protractor arm moving against the flat
vertical side of the car, as the car is tipped sideways. The protractor
pivot center must be coincident with said horizontal flat surface. Adapter
blocks shall be used to establish a flat plane for the measurement of
equipment not having flat sides. A high CG index number indicates a low
center or gravity, i.e: CG90.

4. Rolling stock will be tilt (protractor) tested on both sides of car to
establish the CG Index. The poorest of the two readings (the lowest reading)
will become the CG Index for that car. Side to side differences exceeding 5
degrees should be corrected with counterweights or by relocating/removing

5. Equipment may be required to be modified as necessary to achieve the
optimum weight/center of gravity.

6. The MINIMUM center of gravity index for any NEW registration car shall be
30 degrees (CG30), brass models MAY be exempted from modification that would
ruin their value- provided they cause no operating problems.

7. Existing equipment registered before the establishment of the CG index
WILL NOT be exempted, except on a "proof only' basis, and will need to be
upgraded to the current standard when repaired or inspected.

Nelson Moyer

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:02 PM
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Arcane question of the week

How far above the railhead would you say is the center of gravity for your
average empty STMFC?

Really.

Our software team has added curve resistance to the rolling resistance
values and while doing so tossed in something else for tipping over at some
relationship of curve radius, super-elevation, and speed. I think it's far
too sensitive but I need a decent center of gravity estimate to make the
case.

Dave Nelson

Re: Arcane question of the week

Alex Schneider

Presumably consideration was also given to the fact that the carbody.and trucks were only held together by center pins, although there were pads on both sides of the bolsters which could support weight. Thus the body could tip off the trucks as well as the trucks tipping off the rails.

Alex Schneider

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
Date: 03/18/2016 23:34 (GMT-06:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Arcane question of the week

A lot lower on a flat car than a house car, with a gondola somewhere in between.  Seriously, the mass distribution propoerties vary not only by car type but by construction.  The trucks were generally a significant portion of the weight, but the underframe and superstructure were also significant portions.  My gut feel is that the center of mass moved downward somewhat as construction methods improved.  Welded Z frame center sills were much lighter than the bolted C channels for instance.  Using the same trucks with less weight above them would lower the CG.  Good question even though most of us don't have the data to answer it.

John Barry

ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights

707-490-9696

PO Box 44736
Washington, DC 20026-4736

From: "'Dave Nelson' Lake_Muskoka@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2016 12:02 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Arcane question of the week

How far above the railhead would you say is the center of gravity for your average empty STMFC?

Really.

Our software team has added curve resistance to the rolling resistance values and while doing so tossed in something else for tipping over at some relationship of curve radius, super-elevation, and speed. I think it’s far too sensitive but I need a  decent center of gravity estimate to make the case.

Dave Nelson

RPM Valley Forge

Eric Hansmann

The RPM Valley Forge event is in full swing. A short intro has been posted on my blog and more photos will be added later today. The model display room is pretty full!

http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/2016/03/18/2016-rpm-valley-forge/

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

Re: Arcane question of the week

John Barry

A lot lower on a flat car than a house car, with a gondola somewhere in between.  Seriously, the mass distribution propoerties vary not only by car type but by construction.  The trucks were generally a significant portion of the weight, but the underframe and superstructure were also significant portions.  My gut feel is that the center of mass moved downward somewhat as construction methods improved.  Welded Z frame center sills were much lighter than the bolted C channels for instance.  Using the same trucks with less weight above them would lower the CG.  Good question even though most of us don't have the data to answer it.

John Barry

ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights

707-490-9696

PO Box 44736
Washington, DC 20026-4736

From: "'Dave Nelson' Lake_Muskoka@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2016 12:02 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Arcane question of the week

How far above the railhead would you say is the center of gravity for your average empty STMFC?

Really.

Our software team has added curve resistance to the rolling resistance values and while doing so tossed in something else for tipping over at some relationship of curve radius, super-elevation, and speed. I think it’s far too sensitive but I need a  decent center of gravity estimate to make the case.

Dave Nelson

Arcane question of the week

Dave Nelson

How far above the railhead would you say is the center of gravity for your average empty STMFC?

Really.

Our software team has added curve resistance to the rolling resistance values and while doing so tossed in something else for tipping over at some relationship of curve radius, super-elevation, and speed. I think it’s far too sensitive but I need a  decent center of gravity estimate to make the case.

Dave Nelson

Re: Help Finding Large Layout SIG

Douglas Harding

John, SIG, ie Special Interest Group, is a NMRA term/phrase. There is an application and guidelines through the NMRA for becoming a SIG. Yahoo Groups are an entirely different animal, so to speak. Some of the NMRA SIGs do have similar named Yahoo Groups. Both the Layout Design SIG or LDSIG and the Operations SIG or OPSIG have Yahoo Groups, but they are not SIGs. By the way neither requires you to be a SIG member to participate in their Yahoo Group.

I think what you are asking about are Yahoo Groups, ie email exchanges like the Steam Era Freight Car Group STMFC where this thread appears, and not SIGs. To find a Yahoo Group you need to go Yahoo’s website and search under their Groups listings.

Doug Harding

Re: Help Finding Large Layout SIG

George Simmons

There is a yahoo group for the Layout Design SIG look for ldsig in the groups.  There was also a large layout yahoo group at one time, I'm not sure if it is still active but you could under large layouts.

George W. Simmons

Dry Prong, LA

Re: Covered hopper

destorzek@...

And conversely, the Soo Line never adopted gray, their cement cars remained FCR their entire lives.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Help Finding Large Layout SIG

John Sykes III

Sorry.  When I said "SIG" I meant generic special interest groups, not necessarily NMRA.  I looked around here but only could find a Small Layout Group.  I could have sworn that there was a general layout group here on Yahoo once, but I can't find it.

--John

Re: Red Caboose Freight Car Roofs

John Sykes III

Branchline used to sell them separately.  I would check with Atlas (under parts) to see if they are still carrying them.  My understanding was that Atlas acquired all the Branchline rolling stock AND PARTS.  But it might be a little difficult to dig them out of the Atlas website.

Branchline sold the following parts separately:

Roofs (Murphy and Diag Panel I think the Murphys had wood running boards and the Diag had Apex, but I am not sure of this)
End details
Side details
Doors (Various styles and sizes)
I think they sold different styles of running boards, but I would go with Plano for any metal running boards)

Des Plains Hobbies sells (or used to sell) 40 ft Viking roofs.

Sorry, I am keeping all of mine!!!

-- John

Re: Covered hopper

John Evans

I'm no authority but I would think the color choice would have a lot to do with the commodity carried. Cement was one of the earliest and looks worse when spilled on a dark colored car body. Witness the Lackawanna's black cars for cement. Most others here in NE PA were gray although LV did repaint some red in the 60's.

John Evans
Easton, PA

On Mar 18, 2016, at 7:29 PM, SUVCWORR@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Tim,

I appreciate the humor in your response.  It was an earnest question.  There is an ongoing dispute at the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad museum about the correct color to use on the home road covered hoppers made by converting open top hoppers to covered.  The cars were theoretically built in 1939.  Some insist they need to be gray.    Others point out that early covered hoppers were for the most part the "normal" freight car color for the roads fleet.  For example the PRR covered hoppers were freight car color until the change in paint scheme circa 1953 with the introduction of synthetic pigment paint and abandonment of natural pigments.

Evidence would seem to point to "gray" becoming the universal color, with some noted exceptions, for covered hoppers with the introduction of the 2 bay PS-2.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Fri, Mar 18, 2016 6:06 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Covered hopper

Rich

I think it was after the 1954 Supreme Court decision that struck down
discrimination based on the color of covered hoppers.

Honestly, was that a serious question?

Tim O'Connor

>What is the approximate date that the various shades of gray became the defacto standard color for covered hoppers? It seems to be with the introduction of the PS-2 2003 cf cars.
>Rich Orr

------------------------------------
Posted by: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
------------------------------------

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Re: Covered hopper

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>

Friends,

Remember RAILWAY PROTOTYPE CYCLOPEDIA? If you guys had looked there, you might have noted that some covered hoppers delivered as early as 1940 were gray (L&N and ACL, just to name two from that time). The gray color had NOTHING to do with the PS-1s. Up through the late 1940s, a significant number of covered hoppers for cement service were delivered in black, and some were in various shades of red oxide. Black continued to be a favorite color for covered hoppers carrying chemicals.

Come on gang: try using our wonderful resources before posting idle speculation.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff

On 3/18/16 7:29 PM, SUVCWORR@... [STMFC] wrote:

Tim,

I appreciate the humor in your response.  It was an earnest question.  There is an ongoing dispute at the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad museum about the correct color to use on the home road covered hoppers made by converting open top hoppers to covered.  The cars were theoretically built in 1939.  Some insist they need to be gray.    Others point out that early covered hoppers were for the most part the "normal" freight car color for the roads fleet.  For example the PRR covered hoppers were freight car color until the change in paint scheme circa 1953 with the introduction of synthetic pigment paint and abandonment of natural pigments.

Evidence would seem to point to "gray" becoming the universal color, with some noted exceptions, for covered hoppers with the introduction of the 2 bay PS-2.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Fri, Mar 18, 2016 6:06 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Covered hopper

Rich

I think it was after the 1954 Supreme Court decision that struck down
discrimination based on the color of covered hoppers.

Honestly, was that a serious question?

Tim O'Connor

>What is the approximate date that the various shades of gray became the defacto standard color for covered hoppers? It seems to be with the introduction of the PS-2 2003 cf cars.
>Rich Orr

------------------------------------
Posted by: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Re: Covered hopper

rdgbuff56

The Reading's first conversions were black as were their hoppers.

Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

 From:"SUVCWORR@... [STMFC]" Date:Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 7:30 pmSubject:Re: [STMFC] Covered hopper Tim, I appreciate the humor in your response.  It was an earnest question.  There is an ongoing dispute at the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad museum about the correct color to use on the home road covered hoppers made by converting open top hoppers to covered.  The cars were theoretically built in 1939.  Some insist they need to be gray.    Others point out that early covered hoppers were for the most part the "normal" freight car color for the roads fleet.  For example the PRR covered hoppers were freight car color until the change in paint scheme circa 1953 with the introduction of synthetic pigment paint and abandonment of natural pigments. Evidence would seem to point to "gray" becoming the universal color, with some noted exceptions, for covered hoppers with the introduction of the 2 bay PS-2.   Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Fri, Mar 18, 2016 6:06 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Covered hopper

Rich

I think it was after the 1954 Supreme Court decision that struck down
discrimination based on the color of covered hoppers.

Honestly, was that a serious question?

Tim O'Connor

>What is the approximate date that the various shades of gray became the defacto standard color for covered hoppers? It seems to be with the introduction of the PS-2 2003 cf cars.
>Rich Orr

------------------------------------
Posted by: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Re: Covered hopper

SUVCWORR@...

Tim,

I appreciate the humor in your response.  It was an earnest question.  There is an ongoing dispute at the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad museum about the correct color to use on the home road covered hoppers made by converting open top hoppers to covered.  The cars were theoretically built in 1939.  Some insist they need to be gray.    Others point out that early covered hoppers were for the most part the "normal" freight car color for the roads fleet.  For example the PRR covered hoppers were freight car color until the change in paint scheme circa 1953 with the introduction of synthetic pigment paint and abandonment of natural pigments.

Evidence would seem to point to "gray" becoming the universal color, with some noted exceptions, for covered hoppers with the introduction of the 2 bay PS-2.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Fri, Mar 18, 2016 6:06 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Covered hopper

Rich

I think it was after the 1954 Supreme Court decision that struck down
discrimination based on the color of covered hoppers.

Honestly, was that a serious question?

Tim O'Connor

>What is the approximate date that the various shades of gray became the defacto standard color for covered hoppers? It seems to be with the introduction of the PS-2 2003 cf cars.
>Rich Orr

------------------------------------
Posted by: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/

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Re: Covered hopper

Tim O'Connor

Rich

I think it was after the 1954 Supreme Court decision that struck down
discrimination based on the color of covered hoppers.

Honestly, was that a serious question?

Tim O'Connor

What is the approximate date that the various shades of gray became the defacto standard color for covered hoppers? It seems to be with the introduction of the PS-2 2003 cf cars.
Rich Orr

Covered hopper

SUVCWORR@...

What is the approximate date that the various shades of gray became the defacto standard color for covered hoppers?   It seems to be with the introduction of the PS-2 2003 cf cars.

Rich Orr

two perspectives

Allan Smith

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Open call

Allan Smith

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Milwaukee HO Cement 2-bay hoppers 3-pac ACF 1958 cu ft by Kato

Andy Carlson

Hello-
I am offering a new 3-pack set of Milwaukee 70-ton ACF 2 bay 1958 cu ft cement covered hoppers. This 3-pac has three kits for Milwaukee LOs:
1 Milw 99073 blt 5-49
1 Milw 99142 blt 5-49
1 Milw 99208 blt 5-49

These are all in as-delivered gray scheme with small red "Milwaukee, St Paul and Pacific" herald.
Though 70-ton cars, Kato used their 50-ton trucks. I have substituted the correct ASF A-3 70-ton Ride Control trucks from Tahoe Model Works with the semi-scale code 88 metal wheel sets.If desired, I can supply these trucks with the code 110 RP25 wheel sets at no extra charge. This factory 3 pack of Milwaukee covered hopper kits is Kato # 38-0108

Priced at \$45, plus shipping of \$7 to US addresses. If interested, contact me off-list at
Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

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