Date   

Re: ATSF freight car red

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Fred,

WP paint colors definitely changed over time. If you have Jim Eager's WESTERN PACIFIC COLOR GUIDE, you can get a pretty good idea, but you still have to account for weathering differently, different paint lots, repaints, plus the film and lighting conditions of the original photo. I think Jim's book is the best guide we have.

WP/SN wooden cars often show up as a very intense FCR, almost PRR red. You can see this on pages 19 and 20, but the two views of the single-sheathed boxcars still look different. The two SN cars on the next page are fairly consistent, but a bit duller. But compare these with the wooden cabooses on pages 120-123, and you get a whole pallet of different reds.

The various steel cars show quite a bit of variety. I think the original paint on most of the pre-1950s cars was a fairly rich FCR, but it weathered and rusted differently from car to car, and you have to take into account that some of these cars are repaints. OTOH, the view of WPMW 0232 on page 25 is badly color shifted by the photographic process. The red is way too saturated (besides, it is a 1959 repaint, nearly out of our era). The correct color is probably closer to WP 23001 on page 26, but note that the color is different from SN 24XX coupled to it.

The photo of new WP 19622 in the late 1954 scheme on page 34 is quite interesting. It appears in the photo as a much lighter orange-red. Again, this could be a color shift, but I don't see this in the foreground. Also note the yellow journal box covers, no doubt for roller bearing trucks.

My advice is go ahead and paint your cars using Jim's examples where you can, and then weather the heck of out of them. They're going to turn out differently, just like the real cars did.

If anybody criticizes you, I can send some of "my boys" over to lean on them a bit. "Hey, I hear yous got a beef wit' my pal Fred and his paint jobs. You like dat kneecap? Wanna keep it? We be seeing yous buddy."

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 3/20/16 5:22 AM, fred@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

TC claims their colors are based on actual RR swatches.The same ones Tim showed in his link. If these are not 'accurate', what must we rely on then? 60 year old color photos? The zillion reds offered by just as many modelmakers? I'm researching steam era WP BCR for instance. WP red offered by TC is way too purple in my humble opinion and might be taken from a later swatch, maybe even 1960's. The WP reds suggested by the many craftsman kit manuals I own all differ from eachother. There are recepies mixing Floquil (used that 40 years ago) in 1/4 and 1/2 amounts and I end up with pink. My point is: as long as you cannot measure from an actual paint swatch that's been out of the sun since 1945, the right color is always a wild guess. However, like the SP yard photo showed us a while back, there's always a base color used by RR's which weathers during the time. It's that specific steam era WP red I'm searching for. Untill that day I won't paint my precious and expensive craftsman kits (and my kitbashed ones) just because of the risk of ending up with a row of 'worthless' cars because the color is not right... Cheers from Holland, Fred 'WP' Jansz.



Re: ATSF freight car red

Scott H. Haycock
 

It's a shame That tru-color isn't mentioned.They are working hard to provide the RR specific colors that many modelers are looking for.



Scott Haycock


 

Here is a link to a Paint Conversion Chart of Floquil Colors by Microscale. It is in pdf format and shows Model Masters Rust to be the substitute for SantaFe Mineral Red. The Model Masters site shows it as availble.



George Toman



Re: ATSF freight car red

gtws00
 

Here is a link to a Paint Conversion Chart of Floquil Colors by Microscale. It is in pdf format and shows Model Masters Rust to be the substitute for SantaFe Mineral Red. The Model Masters site shows it as availble.



George Toman


Re: ATSF freight car red

Fred Jansz
 

Scott, RR paint swatches are not photographed by paint manufacturers but scanned with calibrated industrial spectrophotometer. The automobile industry does it like this since ages. In fact many RR colors are simply based on automobile swatches. So when the WP museum in Portola finally finds that hidden but oh so wanted WP red paint swatch it has to be scanned, not photographed. In fact I understand there are nowadays APP's available for you phone so you can scan a color and translate it to for instance an automobile, RAL or Pantone color.
Cheers Fred


Re: ATSF freight car red

Scott H. Haycock
 

My previous post got me to thinking about the Pantone color standards, and how they may be useful in our hobby. That brought me to this link:   http://www.pantone-colours.com/

These colors are standardized and may be useful for color matching our hobby paints with prototype color examples, and digital images of freight cars. In the latter category, it may be useful to "eye drop" these samples to photographs in Lightroom, or Photoshop, or PS Elements, to get a close match in Pantone, and then a hobby paint color swatch.

If accurate color matches are your thing, this method may produce useful results. 

Scott Haycock 


 

See Fred Jansz' post below

Fred makes some good points about trying to find "accurate" colors, but he falls into the fallacy of assuming this is an achievable goal. He mentions the swatches that Tim posted. How were these photographed? If Film, which one? All films were based on different chemistry which tinted each color differently. Kodachrome versus  Fuji (a Japanese film company), had a different color palette, for instance.

Today, in the world of digital photography, there are tools you can use to standardize the colors in your photography. If you digitize older film images, you can also color adjust them somewhat, but there is a learning curve to all this.

Also, The colors you perceive outdoors, and the colors you see under indoor, dimmer light on you model railroad, won't come close to matching, and you can't rely on your eyes to ascertain the difference. All light sources are measured in degrees kelvin, including outdoor light (sunrise, midday late afternoon, are different),  photo flash, and all forms of indoor lighting. Colors appear different as these light sources vary by their temperature.

The bottom line is, It's impossible to know for certain about color based on old photographs, or faded color chips. Find a photo you like and try to match the color as close as you can. Paint a sample piece of scrap- I use cardstock- then look at it under your layout lighting. I'll bet it doesn't look nearly as good! Lighten it, and try again. When it looks good, Paint your model and move on to the next one!

Modelers spend far too much time worrying about finding factory made colors, when mixing you own is less expensive, provides more variety in shading, and looks better under layout lighting.

Scott Haycock



Re: modelling and detailing info on the Tichy War Emergency gon

rdgbuff56
 

Rob,
      Which road do you model?  I am looking through the ATSF color guide at this moment and there is a photo of one rebuilt with steel sides in Allentown, Pa. In 1981.
       I model the Reading and they had some almost right up to Conrail.
       Ironically, I just bought an old IHC plastic kit.  I am sure the Tichy kit is a better start.

Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From:"Robert Kirkham rdkirkham@... [STMFC]"
Date:Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 10:49 pm
Subject:[STMFC] modelling and detailing info on the Tichy War Emergency gon

 

Just picked up a Tichy War Emergency gon, and before I get too far into the build thought I had better find a specific prototype, decals and detailing.  Is there a place I can find out the numbers built per original owner railroad and find specifics on any differences between cars?  As I model ’46, I expect I only need as built info.

I wonder how many years I am behind the rest of the hobby to only be getting to this kit now.  O well.

Rob Kirkham


Re: ATSF freight car red

Scott H. Haycock
 

See Fred Jansz' post below

Fred makes some good points about trying to find "accurate" colors, but he falls into the fallacy of assuming this is an achievable goal. He mentions the swatches that Tim posted. How were these photographed? If Film, which one? All films were based on different chemistry which tinted each color differently. Kodachrome versus  Fuji (a Japanese film company), had a different color palette, for instance.

Today, in the world of digital photography, there are tools you can use to standardize the colors in your photography. If you digitize older film images, you can also color adjust them somewhat, but there is a learning curve to all this.

Also, The colors you perceive outdoors, and the colors you see under indoor, dimmer light on you model railroad, won't come close to matching, and you can't rely on your eyes to ascertain the difference. All light sources are measured in degrees kelvin, including outdoor light (sunrise, midday late afternoon, are different),  photo flash, and all forms of indoor lighting. Colors appear different as these light sources vary by their temperature.

The bottom line is, It's impossible to know for certain about color based on old photographs, or faded color chips. Find a photo you like and try to match the color as close as you can. Paint a sample piece of scrap- I use cardstock- then look at it under your layout lighting. I'll bet it doesn't look nearly as good! Lighten it, and try again. When it looks good, Paint your model and move on to the next one!

Modelers spend far too much time worrying about finding factory made colors, when mixing you own is less expensive, provides more variety in shading, and looks better under layout lighting.

Scott Haycock


 

TC claims their colors are based on actual RR swatches.The same ones Tim showed in his link. If these are not 'accurate', what must we rely on then? 60 year old color photos? The zillion reds offered by just as many modelmakers? I'm researching steam era WP BCR for instance. WP red offered by TC is way too purple in my humble opinion and might be taken from a later swatch, maybe even 1960's. The WP reds suggested by the many craftsman kit manuals I own all differ from eachother. There are recepies mixing Floquil (used that 40 years ago) in 1/4 and 1/2 amounts and I end up with pink. My point is: as long as you cannot measure from an actual paint swatch that's been out of the sun since 1945, the right color is always a wild guess. However, like the SP yard photo showed us a while back, there's always a base color used by RR's which weathers during the time. It's that specific steam era WP red I'm searching for. Untill that day I won't paint my precious and expensive craftsman kits (and my kitbashed ones) just because of the risk of ending up with a row of 'worthless' cars because the color is not right... Cheers from Holland, Fred 'WP' Jansz.



Re: ATSF freight car red

Fred Jansz
 

TC claims their colors are based on actual RR swatches.The same ones Tim showed in his link. If these are not 'accurate', what must we rely on then? 60 year old color photos? The zillion reds offered by just as many modelmakers? I'm researching steam era WP BCR for instance. WP red offered by TC is way too purple in my humble opinion and might be taken from a later swatch, maybe even 1960's. The WP reds suggested by the many craftsman kit manuals I own all differ from eachother. There are recepies mixing Floquil (used that 40 years ago) in 1/4 and 1/2 amounts and I end up with pink. My point is: as long as you cannot measure from an actual paint swatch that's been out of the sun since 1945, the right color is always a wild guess. However, like the SP yard photo showed us a while back, there's always a base color used by RR's which weathers during the time. It's that specific steam era WP red I'm searching for. Untill that day I won't paint my precious and expensive craftsman kits (and my kitbashed ones) just because of the risk of ending up with a row of 'worthless' cars because the color is not right... Cheers from Holland, Fred 'WP' Jansz.


Re: modelling and detailing info on the Tichy War Emergency gon

Robert kirkham
 

Thanks Ben - that helps tremendously.

Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2016 9:54 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] modelling and detailing info on the Tichy War Emergency gon

Rob Kirkham asked:
"Just picked up a Tichy War Emergency gon, and before I get too far into the build thought I had better find a specific prototype, decals and detailing. Is there a place I can find out the numbers built per original owner railroad and find specifics on any differences between cars? As I model ’46, I expect I only need as built info."

Three groups of articles in the modeling press will help you out:

- The first is Ted Culotta's article in the August 2001 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, which is a great overview of these cars.

- The second is Richard Hendrickson's two-part series on these cars in the May and June 2002 issues of Railmodel Journal.

- The third is a series of articles by Martin Lofton in the January, February, September, and November 1990 issues of Model RailroadING.

Unfortnately, Trainlife only has fragments of the RMJ and MRG issues, having never fully recovered from the Doom.


Ben Hom


------------------------------------
Posted by: Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
------------------------------------


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Yahoo Groups Links


Re: modelling and detailing info on the Tichy War Emergency gon

Benjamin Hom
 

Rob Kirkham asked:
"Just picked up a Tichy War Emergency gon, and before I get too far into the build thought I had better find a specific prototype, decals and detailing. Is there a place I can find out the numbers built per original owner railroad and find specifics on any differences between cars? As I model ’46, I expect I only need as built info."

Three groups of articles in the modeling press will help you out:

- The first is Ted Culotta's article in the August 2001 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, which is a great overview of these cars.

- The second is Richard Hendrickson's two-part series on these cars in the May and June 2002 issues of Railmodel Journal.

- The third is a series of articles by Martin Lofton in the January, February, September, and November 1990 issues of Model RailroadING.

Unfortnately, Trainlife only has fragments of the RMJ and MRG issues, having never fully recovered from the Doom.


Ben Hom


modelling and detailing info on the Tichy War Emergency gon

Robert kirkham
 

Just picked up a Tichy War Emergency gon, and before I get too far into the build thought I had better find a specific prototype, decals and detailing.  Is there a place I can find out the numbers built per original owner railroad and find specifics on any differences between cars?  As I model ’46, I expect I only need as built info.

I wonder how many years I am behind the rest of the hobby to only be getting to this kit now.  O well.

Rob Kirkham


Re: Arcane question of the week

Jack Mullen
 

Dave Nelson said:
… gets you thinking of how the weight difference between a flat car and boxcar of reasonably similar construction translates into a different center of gravity… I would not think that much given the sides and roof panels for a boxcar are so thin. 

Consider that a box car underframe has a lot less steel than a flat car.  It's not so much a matter of adding the weight of the boxcar superstructure as redistributing mass higher above the rail.  I'm still going from memory here, so feel free to fact-check,  but I think the USRA box cars were no more than a ton or so heavier than the composite gon, and likewise to the proposed USRA flat cars.  For another example, C&NW had some 50' merchandise box cars built prewar that were under 50000# light weight, well within the range of 50 ft, 50T flat cars. Admittedly, that's a somewhat light 50' box, but by no means unique.

In turn, this leads on to the question of why do empty covered hoppers have such a high center of gravity?  Those sides must be much more substantial than I thought.

I was thinking specifically of 4600 CF and larger grain cars, where much of  the car structure has been reduced to what's basically a big rectangular steel tube.  Again, not really a matter of how heavy the sides are, as how much of the total body is fairly high up.

Jack Mullen


Re: Arcane question of the week

Schuyler Larrabee
 

“Any super elevation in quite a bit of extra safety.” [sic]

 

So wrote Dave Nelson.  And for preventing a train or car from rolling off to the outside of the curve at speed, sure, that makes sense.

 

But what about a train that has to stop on a curve with significant superelevation?  The ERIE ran through a town called Great Bend, south of Binghamton in Penna., so named for the great bend in the Susquehanna River at that point.  The curve on the ERIE was quite sharp, and the superelevation was really significant, I believe 8” difference in the tops of the rails.  At least 7”, but I think 8”.    Freights ran through Great Bend at 50 mph, or better, so the superelevation was a good thing, and probably even more so for passengers.  But I saw a couple of freight trains stopped on this curve, and it was quite intimidating to see cars leaning that far.  ISTR that the employee timetable for the Susquehanna Division included special instructions about this curve, including advisories about how to start a stopped train to avoid overturning a car.  Unfortunately, my library has never fully recovered from the move, and I can’t put my hands on them now.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2016 6:07 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Arcane question of the week

 

 

Who better to ask than the members of this list?  You guys are all great.

The problem I was working on appears to be solved… the omission of a safe maximum unbalanced center of gravity – how far can the car be tipped to away from the direction of the curve (flat track) by centrifugal force and not be in any danger.  Apparently no value for that translated into not safe at any speed and I had neglected to provide one.  Plug in 6 inches and a reasonable center of gravity and the problem goes away. Any super elevation in quite a bit of extra safety.

 

But it is still an interesting question… gets you thinking of how the weight difference between a flat car and boxcar of reasonably similar construction translates into a different center of gravity… I would not think that much given the sides and roof panels for a boxcar are so thin.  In turn, this leads on to the question of why do empty covered hoppers have such a high center of gravity?  Those sides must be much more substantial than I thought.

 

Last… I quite enjoyed reading about the test procedure in San Diego.  It isn’t readily apparent to most model railroaders but long trains are really different.

 

Thanks all for your comments,

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2016 1:38 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Arcane question of the week

 


Dave,

 

That could be the arcane question of the month, if not the year….

 

 

 

It's not clear to me whether you're talking about tipping to the inside of a curve in a stringline derailment, or overturning outside in an excess-speed derailment. Since speed is mentioned, I think it may be the latter.  Empty-car CG should be low enough that overturning shouldn't occur at any plausible combination of train speed and curve, so if the model is predicting otherwise, something is wrong.  In practical terms, it's likely that an L/V derailment, either wheel-climb or rail rollover would occur sooner.

 

Jack Mullen


Re: Red Caboose Freight Car Roofs

rob.mclear3@...
 

I think Atlas still carry them, but not sure, the part number is BLI 140002 and there is a link here to it.
Regards
Rob McLear
Aussie.


Re: Arcane question of the week

Dave Nelson
 

Who better to ask than the members of this list?  You guys are all great.

The problem I was working on appears to be solved… the omission of a safe maximum unbalanced center of gravity – how far can the car be tipped to away from the direction of the curve (flat track) by centrifugal force and not be in any danger.  Apparently no value for that translated into not safe at any speed and I had neglected to provide one.  Plug in 6 inches and a reasonable center of gravity and the problem goes away. Any super elevation in quite a bit of extra safety.

 

But it is still an interesting question… gets you thinking of how the weight difference between a flat car and boxcar of reasonably similar construction translates into a different center of gravity… I would not think that much given the sides and roof panels for a boxcar are so thin.  In turn, this leads on to the question of why do empty covered hoppers have such a high center of gravity?  Those sides must be much more substantial than I thought.

 

Last… I quite enjoyed reading about the test procedure in San Diego.  It isn’t readily apparent to most model railroaders but long trains are really different.

 

Thanks all for your comments,

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2016 1:38 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Arcane question of the week

 


Dave,

 

That could be the arcane question of the month, if not the year….

 

 

 

It's not clear to me whether you're talking about tipping to the inside of a curve in a stringline derailment, or overturning outside in an excess-speed derailment. Since speed is mentioned, I think it may be the latter.  Empty-car CG should be low enough that overturning shouldn't occur at any plausible combination of train speed and curve, so if the model is predicting otherwise, something is wrong.  In practical terms, it's likely that an L/V derailment, either wheel-climb or rail rollover would occur sooner.

 

Jack Mullen


Re: ATSF freight car red

Tim O'Connor
 


Or, you can just try to match actual prototype paint chips.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/timboconnor/17098035956/

Putting a label on a bottle does not make it accurate. Tru-Color
is known to sell the same color with more than one label.

Tim O'Connor


 >> Tru-color makes two versions... one for pre-1945 cars and one for post-1945.


Re: Arcane question of the week

Jack Mullen
 

Dave,

That could be the arcane question of the month, if not the year.  As I'm sure your are aware, this isn't readily found.  Some values can be picked up in reading track-train dynamics studies and derailment analyses, most of them well past steam era. 

Currently (for those of you whose calendars don't turn past 1960, that means WAY past steam era) AAR interchange rules limit combined car+load CG height to 98".  It's been remarked that it's not possible for a loaded Plate C boxcar to exceed this value, so if you assume a load mass equal to the LD LMT, located 1/2 IH above the floor, you could derive an upper bound for the car's CG - for a modern car of course. And UMLER now has a field for empty CG height,though it's only a required entry for certain cars.

Looking back to the steam era, or closer to it, at least for steam-era equipment., I can offer a few random tidbits. My references are packed for moving, so this is dimly recalled gleanings from the distant past.

For a flatcar, something like 3' or a few inches  less should be a reasonable value.  For a boxcar, IIRC the empty CG is generally within a foot or less above the floor.  Having gone through the rock-and-roll derailment era of the '70s and '80s, I think large covered hoppers tended to have an empty CG around 5', and loaded around 8', and both values were regarded as higher than average, so again that may help with an upper limit.

For steam locos themselves, as a rule-of-thumb, the height of the CG should be around the bottom of the boiler.

It's not clear to me whether you're talking about tipping to the inside of a curve in a stringline derailment, or overturning outside in an excess-speed derailment. Since speed is mentioned, I think it may be the latter.  Empty-car CG should be low enough that overturning shouldn't occur at any plausible combination of train speed and curve, so if the model is predicting otherwise, something is wrong.  In practical terms, it's likely that an L/V derailment, either wheel-climb or rail rollover would occur sooner.

Jack Mullen


Dave Nelson asked:


How far above the railhead would you say is the center of gravity for your
average empty STMFC?

Really.

Our software team has added curve resistance to the rolling resistance
values and while doing so tossed in something else for tipping over at some
relationship of curve radius, super-elevation, and speed. I think it's far
too sensitive but I need a decent center of gravity estimate to make the
case.



Dave Nelson





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Arcane question of the week

spsalso
 

On a bit more thought, perhaps the Acela moves its center of gravity sideways to accomplish this feat.  Since the cars tip, perhaps the center of gravity really can be moved enough to make the kind of difference noted in the article.


Which is quite interesting.  Thanks, Tim




Ed


Edward Sutorik


Re: Arcane question of the week

spsalso
 

I read this in the (1947) article cited:


"Amtrak’s 150-mph (241-km/h) Acela creates its own bank angle by tilting up to 4.2 degrees. If the Acela is operating on a curve whose out-side rail is raised 2 inches (5 cm), the Acela can speed as if it is on a curve that is raised an additional 7 inches (17.8 cm) higher—for a total super-elevation of 9 inches (22.9 cm)."



And it would appear to do that without significantly changing the height of its center of gravity.  In the context of this discussion of tipping forces, that's quite an accomplishment.




Ed


Edward Sutorik


Re: ATSF freight car red

StephenK
 

Tru-color makes two versions of this--one for pre-1945 cars and one for post-1945.   I have used their paint and it is great--it sprays perfectly right out of the bottle and dries glossy for decaling.

Here is the website:

And, check this out:


And no, I am not affiliated--just a happy user!

Steve Kay