Date   

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

dale florence <dwwesley@...>
 

I am not sure, but the last time I saw a similar round tank like the one in the picture, was at an old paper mill. This tank would cook straw that was used in making medium for corrugated boxes.

Dale Florence


From: modelsof1900@... [STMFC] ;
To: ;
Subject: [STMFC] Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load
Sent: Wed, Apr 13, 2016 7:39:19 AM



Hallo to all and thanks for yor friendly replies!

It was a nice job that I have done in a relatively short time and I was surprised about this well looking result after first success.
And there I think as Mike. The transport procedere was going on railcar was mot longer then a short run to the pier where the vessel was reloaded into the mentioned barke. The most interest fact was "rolling" the tanks from barke to its final position ob heavy timbers, how you can see in this picture - http://us-modelsof1900.de/wp-content/gallery/pressure-tank/naca-density-tunnel-5k.jpg.

Thanks to all for your interest and comments!

Bernhard


Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Bernhard Schroeter
 

Hallo to all and thanks for yor friendly replies!

It was a nice job that I have done in a relatively short time and I was surprised about this well looking result after first success.
And there I think as Mike. The transport procedere was going on railcar was mot longer then a short run to the pier where the vessel was reloaded into the mentioned barke. The most interest fact was "rolling" the tanks from barke to its final position ob heavy timbers, how you can see in this picture - http://us-modelsof1900.de/wp-content/gallery/pressure-tank/naca-density-tunnel-5k.jpg.

Thanks to all for your interest and comments!

Bernhard


Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Bernhard,
 
Extraordinary work! Wonderful!
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 1:00 AM
Subject: [STMFC] A large tank as a heavy flat car load


Some time ago I found this picture of a really impressive and heavy load! See - Variable Density Tunnel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was a very fascinating load to me and so I hoped to find solutions for all needed things and techniques for modeling, load including car.

Ok, I found all what I thought to need for a realization - building a boiler, rivet plates and a fitting flatcar.
I made a scale drawing on base of 33" wheel diameter and so I received a few basic dates - plus/minus a few small deviations. The flat car should have a length of 36' and the pressure tank has 15 ft in diameter, the length of it is a bit shorter then the car - 34.5 ft.

Additionally I searched in web for more information. That was a great help to find more details and many pictures after I found the use and correct name of this pressure tank - Variable Density Tunnel of NASA for development of air planes and parts, especially wing forms under different pressure conditions, especially in vacuum.
The tunnel was built in 1921/22 and delivered to NACA, now NASA Langley Research Center in Virginia and so it was normally, that this pressure tank has a riveted construction. Today the tunnel is exhibited in Park of NASA Langley Research Center as a ''National Historic Landmark'' of Virginia.


Please look my new album here for some more pictures or visit a gallery with a complete history of this project in pictures on my website including many more pictures of prototype.


Sorry for my not so good English however I hope for understanding and your interest.

(Some more pictures will be added to the album here today.)



Re: perishable traffic patterns

Todd Sullivan
 

Really interesting data, Charles. 

A question: How did you determine the number of interchanges for each load?  I understand the numbers of originating ("Orig") and terminating ("Term") loads, but I didn't think you included data on the number of times a load was interchanged (which, I assume, means an inter-railroad movement).

Todd Sullivan
Modeling E. Portland OR in 1952
in Liverpool, NY


Re: perishable traffic patterns

Charles Hostetler
 

Tony:

Thanks for your recent post regarding modeling waybills depicting perishable diversions and reconsignments.  As you pointed out, a number of commodities were moved with diversions.  A while back I got interested in the problem of identifying which commodities were most commonly diverted.  After looking at the few waybills I had that appeared to be diversions, I took a look at the ICC Freight Commodity Statistics that tabulate (by commodity class) the number of carloads originated, terminated, and total handled.  My hypothesis was based on the notion that loads that were diverted tended to have more interchanges in their routes.  Hence the total number of carloads handled for commodities that tended to be diverted would be greater in proportion to the number of carload originated or terminated than for ordinary commodities.  

These data are from 1952, they are in carloads, and they are national totals (not a sample like the 1% carload waybill survey).  

For all carload commodities in 1952:

Class Orig Term Total Ratio
Carload Traffic 32,847,481 31,559,706 66,819,697 1.034

[For those interested in the details, the Ratio = the total carloads handled / the greater of the carloads originated or terminated - 1}

This suggests that the average carload of freight is interchanged about once per route.  

Here are a couple of commodities that aren't interchanged much at al and their rations are close to zero, that is they tend to stay on a single railroad with no interchange from start to finishl:

Class Orig Term Total Ratio
Flaxseed 18,376 18,729 22,275 0.189
Beverages NOS 13,630 14,010 16,250 0.160
Sugar beets 144,730 141,286 165,641 0.144
Logs 346,740 360,338 402,564 0.117
Ice 20,793 20,311 21,904 0.053
Copper ore 19,045 99,547 104,201 0.047
Anthracite coal breakers 293,909 294,397 294,716 0.001


and these are the 26 commodities with the most interchanges per trip (top 10% of all commodities):

Class Orig Term Total Ratio
Tomatoes 21,725 25,203 102,544 3.069
Celery 26,388 27,793 111,477 3.011
Lemons limes 10,740 13,226 53,010 3.008
Canteloupes 28,257 29,623 117,613 2.970
Oranges grapefruits 82,114 81,399 324,319 2.950
Cigarettes 11,052 10,902 43,144 2.904
Watermelons 21,812 22,285 86,571 2.885
Vegetables fresh NOS 69,036 74,824 284,549 2.803
Copper ingot matte pig 15,836 16,663 63,196 2.793
Grapes fresh 25,799 27,870 105,298 2.778
Lettuce 82,174 79,505 302,419 2.680
Cabbage 15,036 14,746 54,796 2.644
Manuf tobacco NOS 1,514 1,572 5,704 2.628
Fruits dried 6,380 6,291 22,889 2.588
Food frozen 9,257 9,656 33,815 2.502
Cotton cloth 13,681 14,855 51,612 2.474
Matches 3,951 3,887 13,690 2.465
Pears fresh 14,713 15,333 52,845 2.446
Fruits frozen 4,255 4,624 15,782 2.413
Candy confectionery 15,086 14,460 50,946 2.377
Peaches fresh 13,936 13,898 46,113 2.309
Wine 18,570 21,094 69,345 2.287
Fruits fresh NOS 10,620 10,274 34,596 2.258
Aluminum NOS 21,139 21,543 69,377 2.220
Drugs medicines 8,657 8,639 27,714 2.201
Vegetables frozen 10,473 10,732 34,056 2.173

Note that perishables dominate this list, which I think is quite interesting.  Also note that some of the "high interchange" commodities probably weren't diverted much (e.g., manufactured tobacco, copper, aluminum and drugs); the relatively high number of interchanges probably more reflects the restricted geographic production areas and the long distance and complicated routes to the points of termination.  But on the whole I thought these data support the idea that modeling diversions for selected commodities (like perishables) was a reasonable way to add variety without unduly emphasizing very rare events.  

These data are available on a yearly basis from sometime in the early 1920s through at least 1960.  In addition to the national data I showed here they are also available for each individual Class 1 railroad.  Thanks again for an interesting post!

Regards,

Charles Hostetler
Washington Ill.


Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Richard Brennan
 

Bernhard

Excellent write-up...
I had taken the NASA explanation at face value, but the rail-to-barge scenario now makes perfect sense.

Thanks for bringing more to light on this interesting shipment... and the great photos of your build process.

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 09:39 AM 4/12/2016, modelsof1900@yahoo.com [STMFC] wrote:
Sorry, I think there is an error in your description - the VDT was not shipped by rail to Langley Research Center bat by a barge.
Please compare the description "<http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/crgis/images/5/5d/ArrivalOfVDT.pdf>A critical look at Langley's History ..." beginning on end of page 3.
Cit.
"In fact, the tank was not delivered until June 1922. More importantly, it was not shipped by railway at all, but via water transportation by a barge from the shipyard, down the James River, around Fort Monroe, and to Langley."
Please read also the next paragraphs and you should see also the VDT pictured on a barge.
I hope for a bit more clarity in this point of transport.

Bernhard


Re: Why MEK instead of Tenax 7-R?

Carl Gustafson
 

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 11:22:30PM -0400, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net [STMFC] wrote:
Silica gel can also be rejuvenated. Place it in the microwave and give it a 30-second shot. Let it cool and do it again two or three times. It will get HOT and can melt, which I think isn’t good, but it can be dried out and reused.
When I worked at a company that sold computers to old people, we got them by the container load, and
each one had at least 4 bags of silica gel in them. The guys that loaded software and shipped them out
tossed the bags, sometimes 30 pounds a day. So I saved some.

I dry it in a regular gas oven (electric would be better) at a fairly low temperature - too high and
the packaging chars. About 200F for an hour or two would bring them to constant weight - maybe 30
grams, down from 40. Then they get packed in sealed glass jars for later use.

Too bad I don't work there any more. I could get my start just like Hans Stauffer started his chemical
company - dredging up ballast (I think it was limestone or something) from SF Bay, and selling it to
local industries.

Carl "Too late now" Gustafson


Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

lytlemp
 

I would make the assumption that railcar was the means of transporting the pressure vessel from the assembly building to the barge. That aside let me congratulate you on a very well engineered build capturing the feel of the original vessel. A job that was completed with a lot of work shop ingenuity. Well done. Mike


Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Bernhard Schroeter
 

Richard, thanks.

Sorry, I think there is an error in your description - the VDT was not shipped by rail to Langley Research Center bat by a barge.
Please compare the description "A critical look at Langley's History ..." beginning on end of page 3.
Cit.
"In fact, the tank was not delivered until June 1922. More importantly, it was not shipped by railway at all, but via water transportation by a barge from the shipyard, down the James River, around Fort Monroe, and to Langley."
Please read also the next paragraphs and you should see also the VDT pictured on a barge.
I hope for a bit more clarity in this point of transport.

Bernhard


Re: reasonable postage/shipping

ed_mines
 

Dave, that's why I'm asking here.


I've found plenty of vendors from google searches, but $7 shipping for a $3 item gets expensive fast.


I too ordered an "in stock" item from a well known hobby shop (most expensive item order) and everything but that showed up. I understand  on line inventory systems have glitsches but they should have asked me if I still wanted the order

(I would have canceled it).


Ed Mines



Re: SOO/DSS&A square corner post boxcar - IC? Re: Resin Car Works update

Paul Krueger
 

Thanks Tom. I'm looking forward to this mini kit.

Paul

Paul Krueger
Seattle, WA


Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Richard Brennan
 

At 01:00 AM 4/12/2016, modelsof1900@yahoo.com [STMFC] wrote:
Some time ago I found this picture of a really impressive and heavy load! See - Variable Density Tunnel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As I commented back in May 2013 (STMFC Message #116323)
Very Modellogenic!

-----------------------------------
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
From: Richard Brennan
Subject: Steampunk Easter Egg
Yahoo-Profile: rbrennan4

From the NASA Commons on Flickr:
"(February 3, 1922) The Variable Density Tunnel arrives by rail from
the Newport News Shipbuilding and Dry Dock Company. "

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasacommons/7605919454/

The short over-the-rails move would have been from the Newport News
docks to the nearby NACA (NASA predecessor) Langley Research Center.
The 1920-built flat is rated higher capacity than the somewhat
similar (and earlier) PRR F22.


Re: SOO/DSS&A square corner post boxcar - IC? Re: Resin Car Works update

Tom Madden
 

Paul Krueger asked:
>
> The SOO/DSS&A mini-kit should work for IC cars too, shouldn't it?
>
> Are there decals for the pre-"Mainline of Mid-America" IC lettering?

Yes to the first question. Sunshine's mini-kit was for all three roads. Same ends, just different decals in the package. The RCW offering has more resin parts than the Sunshine, some of which I don't recognize but I'm sure the instruction sheet will educate us.

Don't know on the second, but I'll ask. Frank says the IC decal artwork is done and I'd be surprised if it wasn't comprehensive enough to do all versions. 

Tom Madden



Re: 36-foot box car data files - second summary

Eric Hansmann
 

Rob,

Could you clarify a portion of the double sheathed CPR car data you presented? Here's the line in question:


30000 36' I long and 8' I height


Is there an extra zero in that quantity? I know the CPR had a large number of the Fowler/Dominion cars, but I was not aware of a large number of CPR double sheathed 36-foot cars.

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX


On April 12, 2016 at 1:32 AM "Robert Kirkham rdkirkham@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

Thanks for this Dennis, that’s a helpful start for comparing cars. 

 

I was looking through various records for the CPR fleet prior to 1923 and noticed that the split between the steel frame (Dominion/Folwer) design and the wood frame double sheathed cars was approx. 50/50.  But the double sheathed cars fell into multiple rough categories, which I roughly sorted by approx. interior length and interior height, as follows:

 

4000 with IL around 34’5” and I height around 7’ to 7’3”

72 cars 34’4” IL and 8’ IH

288 cars 36’6” IL and 7’6” or 7’8” IH

30000 36’ I long and 8’ I height

 

Later in the 1920s another 1000 cars were added that were 36’ IL and 8’7” IH.  These  last cars come closest to the platform/eave height which the railway called out as 12’9”.  Earlier cars were shorter (12’ 8” or so).

 

So, for me the goal here is to figure out which sets of cars the model will best resemble.  Lots of detail differences existed, but I’m trying to start with the basic length and height data.  Then considering how to modify to suit other prototypes by removing part of the side sill, etc.

 

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 8:45 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: 36-foot box car data files - second summary

 



As promised, here are some real numbers. Looking at the Drawings of the NYC car, the height rail to eaves is 12' - 7" and some fraction, which varies lot to lot. Drawings of the older truss rod cars rebuilt with steel ends show 12' - 2-3/4", or about four to five inches lower. That exposed steel side sill I mentioned measures 3-1/2", so trimming it off brings the body height down into the ballpark for the older wood UF cars.

Concerning dimensions in the ORER, the purpose of the exterior dimensions is to determine if a given car will clear obstructions at the customer's loading dock; small doors or low roofs and canopies. The first inaccuracy introduced is the ORER always rounds exterior dimensions UP to the nearest full inch, so the examples above would be listed as 12' - 3" and 12' - 8".

Back in the olden days when boxcars had wood sheathed roofs, things were simple; the height to the eave was the height from the rail to the outside corner of the car. However, the advent of steel roofs changed all this, because steel roofs are too slippery to be a safe walking surface, so cars with steel roofs sprouted latitudinal platforms over the ladders, and the published dimensions had to take these into account to be sure they would clear obstructions. So, the "height to eaves or top of platform" is no longer the height to the actual eaves. A diagram for one of the cars we're working on shows this to be 13' - 0", which is what would have been listed in the ORER. I just looked one of the cars up in the Feb. 1929 ORER, and sure enough, it is.

The extreme height dimension is even less useful. Modelers researching late fifties cars can be pretty much assured that the extreme height is the height over the running board, but... Any car with a vertical brake staff, the top end of that staff becomes the extreme height. Since there was no real standardization of the height of the brake wheel above the roof, the extreme height bears no relationship to the height of the roof or running board.

The main point is back in this era, the ORER is a less reliable source for dimensions for modeling an unknown car.

Dennis Storzek


 


Re: Why MEK instead of Tenax 7-R?

mwbpequod
 

I guess I should have noted that it's not necessary to use expensive glassware - a plastic desiccator under $10 works just as well.  Anything that has a good quality air tight seal will suffice.

 

The nice thing about the calcium sulfate is that you can get it with blue indicator (cobalt complex) included in it - turns purple when it picks up water.  It's also easily regenerated in the oven.

 

Martin Brechbiel



---In STMFC@..., <mwbauers55@...> wrote :

This is about the mention of extending the life of the modeling superglue we use, with the use of laboratory glassware .

Looking at prices, a true desiccator will cost somewhere around $70 and up.

While the calcium sulfate dryer is relatively inexpensive.

This had me thinking of those decoration and functional canning jars or kitchen containers that use a thick rubber seal and a clamp on glass top.

That should work as well as a non vacuum desiccator with the same stuff inside and cost near $5 instead.

And keep your expensive hobby superglues out of your fridges and freezers.

Mike Bauers



> On Apr 11, 2016, at 8:43 AM, "martinwb@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
>
> Somewhat related point - store your CA glues after opening them at room temperature in a desiccator with color indicator calcium sulfate (Drierite) - it'll last for years there vs. the frige or freezer where it will encounter moisture which contributes to its failure. I've never had a bottle of CA


A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Bernhard Schroeter
 


Some time ago I found this picture of a really impressive and heavy load! See - Variable Density Tunnel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was a very fascinating load to me and so I hoped to find solutions for all needed things and techniques for modeling, load including car.

Ok, I found all what I thought to need for a realization - building a boiler, rivet plates and a fitting flatcar.
I made a scale drawing on base of 33" wheel diameter and so I received a few basic dates - plus/minus a few small deviations. The flat car should have a length of 36' and the pressure tank has 15 ft in diameter, the length of it is a bit shorter then the car - 34.5 ft.

Additionally I searched in web for more information. That was a great help to find more details and many pictures after I found the use and correct name of this pressure tank - Variable Density Tunnel of NASA for development of air planes and parts, especially wing forms under different pressure conditions, especially in vacuum.
The tunnel was built in 1921/22 and delivered to NACA, now NASA Langley Research Center in Virginia and so it was normally, that this pressure tank has a riveted construction. Today the tunnel is exhibited in Park of NASA Langley Research Center as a ''National Historic Landmark'' of Virginia.


Please look my new album here for some more pictures or visit a gallery with a complete history of this project in pictures on my website including many more pictures of prototype.


Sorry for my not so good English however I hope for understanding and your interest.

(Some more pictures will be added to the album here today.)



Re: 36-foot box car data files - second summary

Robert kirkham
 

Thanks for this Dennis, that’s a helpful start for comparing cars. 

 

I was looking through various records for the CPR fleet prior to 1923 and noticed that the split between the steel frame (Dominion/Folwer) design and the wood frame double sheathed cars was approx. 50/50.  But the double sheathed cars fell into multiple rough categories, which I roughly sorted by approx. interior length and interior height, as follows:

 

4000 with IL around 34’5” and I height around 7’ to 7’3”

72 cars 34’4” IL and 8’ IH

288 cars 36’6” IL and 7’6” or 7’8” IH

30000 36’ I long and 8’ I height

 

Later in the 1920s another 1000 cars were added that were 36’ IL and 8’7” IH.  These  last cars come closest to the platform/eave height which the railway called out as 12’9”.  Earlier cars were shorter (12’ 8” or so).

 

So, for me the goal here is to figure out which sets of cars the model will best resemble.  Lots of detail differences existed, but I’m trying to start with the basic length and height data.  Then considering how to modify to suit other prototypes by removing part of the side sill, etc.

 

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 8:45 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: 36-foot box car data files - second summary

 



As promised, here are some real numbers. Looking at the Drawings of the NYC car, the height rail to eaves is 12' - 7" and some fraction, which varies lot to lot. Drawings of the older truss rod cars rebuilt with steel ends show 12' - 2-3/4", or about four to five inches lower. That exposed steel side sill I mentioned measures 3-1/2", so trimming it off brings the body height down into the ballpark for the older wood UF cars.

Concerning dimensions in the ORER, the purpose of the exterior dimensions is to determine if a given car will clear obstructions at the customer's loading dock; small doors or low roofs and canopies. The first inaccuracy introduced is the ORER always rounds exterior dimensions UP to the nearest full inch, so the examples above would be listed as 12' - 3" and 12' - 8".

Back in the olden days when boxcars had wood sheathed roofs, things were simple; the height to the eave was the height from the rail to the outside corner of the car. However, the advent of steel roofs changed all this, because steel roofs are too slippery to be a safe walking surface, so cars with steel roofs sprouted latitudinal platforms over the ladders, and the published dimensions had to take these into account to be sure they would clear obstructions. So, the "height to eaves or top of platform" is no longer the height to the actual eaves. A diagram for one of the cars we're working on shows this to be 13' - 0", which is what would have been listed in the ORER. I just looked one of the cars up in the Feb. 1929 ORER, and sure enough, it is.

The extreme height dimension is even less useful. Modelers researching late fifties cars can be pretty much assured that the extreme height is the height over the running board, but... Any car with a vertical brake staff, the top end of that staff becomes the extreme height. Since there was no real standardization of the height of the brake wheel above the roof, the extreme height bears no relationship to the height of the roof or running board.

The main point is back in this era, the ORER is a less reliable source for dimensions for modeling an unknown car.

Dennis Storzek



Re: reasonable postage/shipping

davesnyder59
 

That was called Customer Service for generations, especially for small businesses. Seems to be passe today. Thankfully "word of mouth" still seems to help.

Dave Snyder
Louisville, Ky.


SOO/DSS&A square corner post boxcar - IC? Re: Resin Car Works update

Paul Krueger
 

The SOO/DSS&A mini-kit should work for IC cars too, shouldn't it?

Are there decals for the pre-"Mainline of Mid-America" IC lettering?

Thanks,
Paul

Paul Krueger
Seattle, WA


Re: Why MEK instead of Tenax 7-R?

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Silica gel can also be rejuvenated.  Place it in the microwave and give it a 30-second shot.  Let it cool and do it again two or three times.  It will get HOT and can melt, which I think isn’t good, but it can be dried out and reused.

 

Schuyler

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 5:27 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Why MEK instead of Tenax 7-R?

 

 

Jon,

 

                The material is silica gel (it’s actually granules like salt).  We used to call it “silica gel – do not eat” because that is what is printed on EVERY packet of the stuff.

 

                I bought a big can of silica gel at Wal-Mart in the craft section.  It is used for drying flowers.  Very cheap.

 

                I poured some silica gel into the bottom of a mason jar, and I keep my bottle of Loctite ACC in there.  The ACC has stayed good throughout my glacially slow build of the UP S-40-10 stock car that was the subject of Shake-N-Take many years ago.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

P.S. I live in a part of California with low humidity.

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 9:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why MEK instead of Tenax 7-R?

 

 

On 4/11/2016 8:09 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [STMFC] wrote:

This had me thinking of those decoration and functional canning jars or kitchen containers that use a thick rubber seal and a clamp on glass top.


    I have tried various seals normally found in household use.  Most will absorb the solvents we use.  If the rubber is silicone the jars will most likely work just fine.



 
 
That should work as well as a non vacuum desiccator with the same stuff inside and cost near $5 instead. 

    I save all those little packets that come in almost everything you buy.  While I don't know what chemical is in them they all say they are a  desiccator of some kind.  They are free.


-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

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