Re: perishable traffic patterns

Charles Hostetler

Todd Sullivan wrote "A question: How did you determine the number of interchanges for each load? I understand the numbers of originating ("Orig") and terminating ("Term") loads, but I didn't think you included data on the number of times a load was interchanged (which, I assume, means an inter-railroad movement)."

Hi Todd,

The answer is that I inferred it from more detailed information inside the report.  Each year's ICC Freight Commodity Statistics Report consisted of a set of master sheets, with detail on each Class 1 carrier.  Each carrier reports (on an annual basis) the following (in tons):
a)  traffic originated on line and terminated on line
b)  traffic originated on line and delivered to another carrier
c)  traffic received from another carrier and terminated on line
d)  traffic received from another carrier and delivered to another (third) carrier

So the sum of a and b are the total originated by the reporting railroad and the sum of a and c are the total terminated by the reporting railroad.  Here's an example of raw data I had already transcribed from 1957 for bananas, fresh.  (For brevity this table shows only a few of the 110 Class 1 Carriers; had to transcribe the total list to get the grand total in the bottom line):

 Tons Originated Tons Received Tons Carrier Terminating Connecting Terminating Connecting Total ATSF 18,635 282 8,015 12 26,944 CNW 0 0 24,852 47 24,899 CO 12 9 21,998 2,321 24,340 ERIE 108 2,350 6,594 2,977 12,029 NKP 0 0 20,201 521 20,722 PRR 27,561 17,629 38,744 6,857 90,791 SP 33,803 9,255 16,706 218 59,982 TNO 8,854 50 76 0 8,980 WAB 0 0 9,665 2,369 12,034 Total 317,485 571,082 466,815 301,354 1,656,736

The total tons (last column) are obtained by sum of the first four columns and the total row at the bottom is obtained by the sum over all of the carriers (including those not shown in this brief snippet).  The fourth numeric column, tons received from connecting roads is actually what we are after, the total number of tons of pure interchange (or overhead) traffic.  It was my hypothesis that the number of tons in this column would be greater for commodities that would be diverted more frequently.

The trouble is that there are 261 commodity classes and each commodity class has 4 raw numbers to transcribe for each of 110 Class 1 carriers.  So I've been plugging away at transcribing and QAing this for a while now and it's not done yet for all commodities for any single year.  And when I was looking at Tony's post I wanted to see if perishables as a group had more interchanges compared to other commodity classes.  So I took a shortcut and transcribed one of the summary tables after I had convinced myself that there was a correlation between the total number of tons (or carloads) handled and the total number of tons (or carloads) of bridge traffic.  It was kind of a kludgy demonstration, but that's how the ratio was computed.

I figure I'll complete all of the transcriptions in a year or so and then I can look at the detailed data more analytically, but anyway it was a start. Eventually I hope to use this type of information to pattern my bridge traffic (I have a lot of overhead traffic to deal with relative to locally originated or terminated traffic).   Hope this wasn't too confusing and if you want to take a look at a couple of spreadsheets to see some of the details please drop me a line off list and we can discuss in more detail.

Regards,

Charles Hostetler
Washington Ill.

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Bruce Smith

Ed, Folks,

Thanks.  With that info I found this neat advert in Railway Age featuring CISX 500

Regards

Bruce

Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

On Apr 13, 2016, at 2:59 PM, STMFC@... wrote:
Bruce,

The car was CISX 500, built February 1941.  I don't know if it was specially built for the Jumbo moves.  There's a picture on Fallen Flags.

Ed

Edward Sutorik

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Jack Mullen

Given the February 1941 date built, it would have taken exceptional clairvoyance for CISX 500 to have been specially built for the Manhattan project.  So, "specially built", yeah, just as all high-capacity flats are special.
But for Jumbo?, nah.

This car and Jumbo have been previously discussed here.  A search on the group site for "CISX" or "Jumbo" should get you hits.

Jack Mullen

Re: ACC cement

Jared Harper

I like Krazy Glue in the small container with the small tip.  Sometimes it clogs up, but mostly it doesn't.  If it does clog I use a T-pin to unclog it.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA
---In STMFC@..., <ed_mines@...> wrote :

The problem I have with ACC cement is that the container gets gacked up with dry adhesive, not that the adhesive thickens or dries out.

It's hard to get a small amount out of those beat up containers.

I've been buying small packages of ACC at the supermarket/dollar store for a long time as suggested by Al Westerfield in his "how to" video.

Ed Mines

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Advert for the car found here: http://southern.railfan.net/flat/cars/cisx/1.jpg

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 at 2:59 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Bruce,

The car was CISX 500, built February 1941. I don't know if it was specially built for the Jumbo moves. There's a picture on Fallen Flags.

Ed

Edward Sutorik

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

spsalso

Bruce,

The car was CISX 500, built February 1941.  I don't know if it was specially built for the Jumbo moves.  There's a picture on Fallen Flags.

Ed

Edward Sutorik

ACC cement

ed_mines

The problem I have with ACC cement is that the container gets gacked up with dry adhesive, not that the adhesive thickens or dries out.

It's hard to get a small amount out of those beat up containers.

I've been buying small packages of ACC at the supermarket/dollar store for a long time as suggested by Al Westerfield in his "how to" video.

Ed Mines

Re: reasonable postage/shipping

Gary McMills

Prantles are good folks,

Gary McMills - Baton Rouge, La.

----- Original Message -----
From:
STMFC@...

To:

Cc:

Sent:
12 Apr 2016 09:34:20 -0700
Subject:
[STMFC] Re: reasonable postage/shipping

Dave, that's why I'm asking here.

I've found plenty of vendors from google searches, but \$7 shipping for a \$3 item gets expensive fast.

I too ordered an "in stock" item from a well known hobby shop (most expensive item order) and everything but that showed up. I understand  on line inventory systems have glitsches but they should have asked me if I still wanted the order

(I would have canceled it).

Ed Mines

Re: 36-foot box car data files - second summary

John Riddell

Eric,

The following CPR boxcars seem to be close to the forthcoming Accurail kit.

The following is from a 1924 ORER.

CPR series 215000-216299   1,294 cars
36’ DS, steel roof, steel ends, straight side sill, fishbelly centre sill, ladders, IH 8, 2448 cu ft.
I have builders photo of CP 215001

CPR series 220000-220999   1,000 cars
36’ DS, steel roof, steel ends, straight side sill, fishbelly center sill,   IH  8-7, 2638 cu ft.,  built 1923
I have builders photo of CP 220425

John Riddell

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Bruce Smith

Brian,

Wrong era!  For those who do not know “Jumbo” was a large vessel built to contain a possible misfire of the first atomic weapon.  Ultimately, it was not used as confidence in the bomb had grown as had the supply of fissionable material.  Supposedly costing \$12M, that’s a pretty expensive vessel.  One commentary calls the flat car used for the delivery “specially built” for this purpose.  Does anyone have any additional information about this flat car?

Regards

Bruce

Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

On Apr 13, 2016, at 12:04 PM, STMFC@... wrote:

At fist, I thought is was “Jumbo”, but then remembered that Jumbo wasn’t riveted.

http://www.atomicheritage.org/sites/default/files/Jumbo%20on%20specially%20constructed%20flat‐car,%20Pope,%20N.%20M..jpg

Thanks!
--
Brian Ehni

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

At fist, I thought is was “Jumbo”, but then remembered that Jumbo wasn’t riveted.

http://www.atomicheritage.org/sites/default/files/Jumbo%20on%20specially%20constructed%20flat‐car,%20Pope,%20N.%20M..jpg

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 at 11:47 AM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

I am not sure, but the last time I saw a similar round tank like the one in the picture, was at an old paper mill. This tank would cook straw that was used in making medium for corrugated boxes.

Dale Florence

From: modelsof1900@yahoo.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: [STMFC] Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load
Sent: Wed, Apr 13, 2016 7:39:19 AM

Hallo to all and thanks for yor friendly replies!

It was a nice job that I have done in a relatively short time and I was surprised about this well looking result after first success.
And there I think as Mike. The transport procedere was going on railcar was mot longer then a short run to the pier where the vessel was reloaded into the mentioned barke. The most interest fact was "rolling" the tanks from barke to its final position ob heavy timbers, how you can see in this picture - http://us-modelsof1900.de/wp-content/gallery/pressure-tank/naca-density-tunnel-5k.jpg.

Bernhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

dale florence <dwwesley@...>

 I am not sure, but the last time I saw a similar round tank like the one in the picture, was at an old paper mill. This tank would cook straw that was used in making medium for corrugated boxes. Dale Florence

From: modelsof1900@... [STMFC] ;
To: ;
Subject: [STMFC] Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load
Sent: Wed, Apr 13, 2016 7:39:19 AM

 Hallo to all and thanks for yor friendly replies!It was a nice job that I have done in a relatively short time and I was surprised about this well looking result after first success.And there I think as Mike. The transport procedere was going on railcar was mot longer then a short run to the pier where the vessel was reloaded into the mentioned barke. The most interest fact was "rolling" the tanks from barke to its final position ob heavy timbers, how you can see in this picture - http://us-modelsof1900.de/wp-content/gallery/pressure-tank/naca-density-tunnel-5k.jpg.Thanks to all for your interest and comments!Bernhard

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Bernhard Schroeter

Hallo to all and thanks for yor friendly replies!

It was a nice job that I have done in a relatively short time and I was surprised about this well looking result after first success.
And there I think as Mike. The transport procedere was going on railcar was mot longer then a short run to the pier where the vessel was reloaded into the mentioned barke. The most interest fact was "rolling" the tanks from barke to its final position ob heavy timbers, how you can see in this picture - http://us-modelsof1900.de/wp-content/gallery/pressure-tank/naca-density-tunnel-5k.jpg.

Bernhard

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)

﻿
Hi Bernhard,

Extraordinary work! Wonderful!

Claus Schlund

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 1:00 AM
Subject: [STMFC] A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Some time ago I found this picture of a really impressive and heavy load! See -

It was a very fascinating load to me and so I hoped to find solutions for all needed things and techniques for modeling, load including car.

Ok, I found all what I thought to need for a realization - building a boiler, rivet plates and a fitting flatcar.
I made a scale drawing on base of 33" wheel diameter and so I received a few basic dates - plus/minus a few small deviations. The flat car should have a length of 36' and the pressure tank has 15 ft in diameter, the length of it is a bit shorter then the car - 34.5 ft.

Additionally I searched in web for more information. That was a great help to find more details and many pictures after I found the use and correct name of this pressure tank - Variable Density Tunnel of NASA for development of air planes and parts, especially wing forms under different pressure conditions, especially in vacuum.
The tunnel was built in 1921/22 and delivered to NACA, now NASA Langley Research Center in Virginia and so it was normally, that this pressure tank has a riveted construction. Today the tunnel is exhibited in Park of NASA Langley Research Center as a ''National Historic Landmark'' of Virginia.

Please look my new album here for some more pictures or visit a gallery with a complete history of this project in pictures on my website including many more pictures of prototype.

Sorry for my not so good English however I hope for understanding and your interest.

(Some more pictures will be added to the album here today.)

Re: perishable traffic patterns

Todd Sullivan

Really interesting data, Charles.

A question: How did you determine the number of interchanges for each load?  I understand the numbers of originating ("Orig") and terminating ("Term") loads, but I didn't think you included data on the number of times a load was interchanged (which, I assume, means an inter-railroad movement).

Todd Sullivan
Modeling E. Portland OR in 1952
in Liverpool, NY

Re: perishable traffic patterns

Charles Hostetler

Tony:

Thanks for your recent post regarding modeling waybills depicting perishable diversions and reconsignments.  As you pointed out, a number of commodities were moved with diversions.  A while back I got interested in the problem of identifying which commodities were most commonly diverted.  After looking at the few waybills I had that appeared to be diversions, I took a look at the ICC Freight Commodity Statistics that tabulate (by commodity class) the number of carloads originated, terminated, and total handled.  My hypothesis was based on the notion that loads that were diverted tended to have more interchanges in their routes.  Hence the total number of carloads handled for commodities that tended to be diverted would be greater in proportion to the number of carload originated or terminated than for ordinary commodities.

These data are from 1952, they are in carloads, and they are national totals (not a sample like the 1% carload waybill survey).

For all carload commodities in 1952:

 Class Orig Term Total Ratio Carload Traffic 32,847,481 31,559,706 66,819,697 1.034

[For those interested in the details, the Ratio = the total carloads handled / the greater of the carloads originated or terminated - 1}

This suggests that the average carload of freight is interchanged about once per route.

Here are a couple of commodities that aren't interchanged much at al and their rations are close to zero, that is they tend to stay on a single railroad with no interchange from start to finishl:

 Class Orig Term Total Ratio Flaxseed 18,376 18,729 22,275 0.189 Beverages NOS 13,630 14,010 16,250 0.160 Sugar beets 144,730 141,286 165,641 0.144 Logs 346,740 360,338 402,564 0.117 Ice 20,793 20,311 21,904 0.053 Copper ore 19,045 99,547 104,201 0.047 Anthracite coal breakers 293,909 294,397 294,716 0.001

and these are the 26 commodities with the most interchanges per trip (top 10% of all commodities):

 Class Orig Term Total Ratio Tomatoes 21,725 25,203 102,544 3.069 Celery 26,388 27,793 111,477 3.011 Lemons limes 10,740 13,226 53,010 3.008 Canteloupes 28,257 29,623 117,613 2.970 Oranges grapefruits 82,114 81,399 324,319 2.950 Cigarettes 11,052 10,902 43,144 2.904 Watermelons 21,812 22,285 86,571 2.885 Vegetables fresh NOS 69,036 74,824 284,549 2.803 Copper ingot matte pig 15,836 16,663 63,196 2.793 Grapes fresh 25,799 27,870 105,298 2.778 Lettuce 82,174 79,505 302,419 2.680 Cabbage 15,036 14,746 54,796 2.644 Manuf tobacco NOS 1,514 1,572 5,704 2.628 Fruits dried 6,380 6,291 22,889 2.588 Food frozen 9,257 9,656 33,815 2.502 Cotton cloth 13,681 14,855 51,612 2.474 Matches 3,951 3,887 13,690 2.465 Pears fresh 14,713 15,333 52,845 2.446 Fruits frozen 4,255 4,624 15,782 2.413 Candy confectionery 15,086 14,460 50,946 2.377 Peaches fresh 13,936 13,898 46,113 2.309 Wine 18,570 21,094 69,345 2.287 Fruits fresh NOS 10,620 10,274 34,596 2.258 Aluminum NOS 21,139 21,543 69,377 2.220 Drugs medicines 8,657 8,639 27,714 2.201 Vegetables frozen 10,473 10,732 34,056 2.173

Note that perishables dominate this list, which I think is quite interesting.  Also note that some of the "high interchange" commodities probably weren't diverted much (e.g., manufactured tobacco, copper, aluminum and drugs); the relatively high number of interchanges probably more reflects the restricted geographic production areas and the long distance and complicated routes to the points of termination.  But on the whole I thought these data support the idea that modeling diversions for selected commodities (like perishables) was a reasonable way to add variety without unduly emphasizing very rare events.

These data are available on a yearly basis from sometime in the early 1920s through at least 1960.  In addition to the national data I showed here they are also available for each individual Class 1 railroad.  Thanks again for an interesting post!

Regards,

Charles Hostetler
Washington Ill.

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Richard Brennan

Bernhard

Excellent write-up...
I had taken the NASA explanation at face value, but the rail-to-barge scenario now makes perfect sense.

Thanks for bringing more to light on this interesting shipment... and the great photos of your build process.

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 09:39 AM 4/12/2016, modelsof1900@yahoo.com [STMFC] wrote:
Sorry, I think there is an error in your description - the VDT was not shipped by rail to Langley Research Center bat by a barge.
Please compare the description "<http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/crgis/images/5/5d/ArrivalOfVDT.pdf>A critical look at Langley's History ..." beginning on end of page 3.
Cit.
"In fact, the tank was not delivered until June 1922. More importantly, it was not shipped by railway at all, but via water transportation by a barge from the shipyard, down the James River, around Fort Monroe, and to Langley."
I hope for a bit more clarity in this point of transport.

Bernhard

Re: Why MEK instead of Tenax 7-R?

Carl Gustafson

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 11:22:30PM -0400, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net [STMFC] wrote:
Silica gel can also be rejuvenated. Place it in the microwave and give it a 30-second shot. Let it cool and do it again two or three times. It will get HOT and can melt, which I think isn’t good, but it can be dried out and reused.
When I worked at a company that sold computers to old people, we got them by the container load, and
each one had at least 4 bags of silica gel in them. The guys that loaded software and shipped them out
tossed the bags, sometimes 30 pounds a day. So I saved some.

I dry it in a regular gas oven (electric would be better) at a fairly low temperature - too high and
the packaging chars. About 200F for an hour or two would bring them to constant weight - maybe 30
grams, down from 40. Then they get packed in sealed glass jars for later use.

Too bad I don't work there any more. I could get my start just like Hans Stauffer started his chemical
company - dredging up ballast (I think it was limestone or something) from SF Bay, and selling it to
local industries.

Carl "Too late now" Gustafson

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

lytlemp

I would make the assumption that railcar was the means of transporting the pressure vessel from the assembly building to the barge. That aside let me congratulate you on a very well engineered build capturing the feel of the original vessel. A job that was completed with a lot of work shop ingenuity. Well done. Mike

Re: A large tank as a heavy flat car load

Bernhard Schroeter

Richard, thanks.

Sorry, I think there is an error in your description - the VDT was not shipped by rail to Langley Research Center bat by a barge.
Please compare the description "A critical look at Langley's History ..." beginning on end of page 3.
Cit.
"In fact, the tank was not delivered until June 1922. More importantly, it was not shipped by railway at all, but via water transportation by a barge from the shipyard, down the James River, around Fort Monroe, and to Langley."