Date   

Re: MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR CARS

Bill Welch
 

The WrighTrak produces a resin kit w/Banana taper ends good for FGE cars built in 1955 and 1957 built by FGE, WFE and BRE. Only decals I know of are Microscale set for BREX. The FGE/WFE/BRE System built 1100 50-ft Mechs from 1953 thru1957 that were essentially identical except of ends and grill location. They road on Roller Bearing trucks. I am pretty sure I have gone into more detail previously on these cars and suggest looking in the group's Archives.

I have suggested to Greg using the Accurail Sliding Flush Door kit for a "Shake'n Take" project to model one of FGE or WFE's 40-foot Mechs. WFE's may have been aluminum as the photos I have show them without paint except for their stenciling.

Bill Welch


Re: MAINLINE MODELER

Gene Deimling
 

Bob Hundman was a crusader of sorts. He greatly admired Bob Brown's Gazette. A number of the magazine features like heavy coated stock and an even heavier cover stock, modeling techniques, lots of drawings and exceptional craftsmanship. The Gazette could draw upon many talented readers to fill the pages. In my opinion, the standard gauge scratchbuilders had not approached the numbers and level of skill as the narrow gauge RS supporting the Gazette. Hundman tried to fill the voids with his own work. In the early years, MM tended to be extremely selective as who and what got in the magazine. I think this attitude had a chilling effect.

Ready-to-Run models and highly accurate resin kits killed any thoughts of developing the Cadre of readers who would contribute worthy articles.

I for one owe a debt to Bob Hundman for enriching my knowledge of the prototype. Accuracy of scale drawing in all magazines have had errors. They are a human endeavor and humans do make mistakes. As Curt said, go easy on the draftsman.

Gene Deimling


Re: MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR CARS

Tony Thompson
 

Todd Sullivan wrote:

 

I believe the prototype for the model was the FGE car, and the first PFE cars were very similar. 


       I think this is correct. As further info, FGE and PFE were working together on this development, as I was told in my interview with Earl Hopkins, retired PFE CMO at the time of the mechanical reefer work. They shared test data on power units, air flow arrangements, fan size, etc. But as it happened, FGE produced the cars first.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: MAINLINE MODELER

Curt Fortenberry
 


Having done a few drawings for Mainline, I can say that when drawing up a subject, you're never in possession of all that you need.  Experience can sometimes get you to guess, sometimes you just leave it out, sometimes you use a standard detail (couplers come to mind).  I've got a hopper drawing stalled for lack of a brake system drawing.  I visited Bob a couple of times and picked up quite a few drafting tips (and this was back in the ink and mylar days).  There was a knack to doing a presentation drawing.  Bob knew that, and so did the others (they all had standards to look good when printed).  They were not straight drawings.  Line weights and shading were important.  I would think the resources on Bob's shelf are worth saving as much as the magazine material.  

Back to my point.  Be gentle on those who draw stuff up.  

Curt Fortenberry


Re: MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR CARS

Todd Sullivan
 

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Pacific HO produced a flat model in plastic and white metal with wire grabs, separate ladders and full brake rigging of the first variant of the mechanical reefers.  I believe the prototype for the model was the FGE car, and the first PFE cars were very similar.  I have 3-4 of the models packed away somewhere in my storage unit, and would be willing to part with one or two, but I have to find them first.  If anyone is interested, please contact me OFF-LIST at sullivant41 AT yahoo ddot com, and I will get back to you.

Todd Sullivan
Liverpool, NY


Re: MAINLINE MODELER

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote :


        I agree with those who say the impact on the hobby was immense. He did prototype coverage in a way undreamed of at MR and RMC (then and to some extent now), and as I said, the publication quality was simply excellent. I don't think the errors or idiosyncratic style should loom larger than the contribution.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
==========

Just to add to what Tony said, I seem to recall that before he started MM, Bob Hundman had done a lot of drafting work for one or more of the brass importers, PFM for sure. This was both a blessing and a curse; it gave him a lot of practice, and source material when there wasn't much available, but it also formed his opinion of just how much detail, and auxiliary views were needed to convey adequate information. After all, if the brass builders in the Orient could figure out how to build something from his drawings, the average modeler should be able to, also. Details where there was incomplete information, Bob would just "wing it", knowing full well it would look just fine on the finished model.

Dennis Storzek






Re: MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR CARS

Brad Smith
 

Swift's early mechanical reefers were in the red scheme with white eves, like the ice reefers. 

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On May 23, 2016, at 6:09 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Joel,


How about breaking this out into a bit more coherent set of questions...


1) Did mechanical refrigerator cars exits in the era of this list (pre-1960)


The answer to that one would be yes, so overall, your question is appropriate.


You might then ask

2) What companies had mechanical reefers in our era?


A quick check of the PFE "bible" indicates that FGE (yes, FGE, not PFE) started with 25 experimental cars in 1949 and rostered 175 cars by 1952.  PFE and SFRD both added mechanicals in 1952.  PFE's first mechanical cars were class R-70-7. In 1955, the earlier R-70-5 ice cars were rebuilt as mechanicals. Classes R-70-8, R-70-9 and R-70-10 followed on quickly. In 1957 PFE added 40' cars in the classes R-40-29, R-40-30 and R-50-6, all prior to 1960. 


Roger Hinman's book on Merchants Despatch indicates that they started producing mechanicals in 1956.


As noted above, both FGE and SFRD also had mechanicals in the period in question. 


Thus, it might be appropriate to narrow any further question to the particular company that you are interested in and then ask


3) What models are available? (It might also behoove you to first search the STMFC archives using the specific company name and mechcanical, e.g "FGE mechanical reefer".


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of mec-bml@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 12:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR CARS
 


Ive got 2 questions on this type of car,would they fit within the steam era guide lines and if not then PLEASE ignore this question and if they do who offers a HO(either kit or RTR)for these cars..?????

Thanks

Joel Norman




Re: MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR CARS

Bruce Smith
 

Joel,


How about breaking this out into a bit more coherent set of questions...


1) Did mechanical refrigerator cars exits in the era of this list (pre-1960)


The answer to that one would be yes, so overall, your question is appropriate.


You might then ask

2) What companies had mechanical reefers in our era?


A quick check of the PFE "bible" indicates that FGE (yes, FGE, not PFE) started with 25 experimental cars in 1949 and rostered 175 cars by 1952.  PFE and SFRD both added mechanicals in 1952.  PFE's first mechanical cars were class R-70-7. In 1955, the earlier R-70-5 ice cars were rebuilt as mechanicals. Classes R-70-8, R-70-9 and R-70-10 followed on quickly. In 1957 PFE added 40' cars in the classes R-40-29, R-40-30 and R-50-6, all prior to 1960. 


Roger Hinman's book on Merchants Despatch indicates that they started producing mechanicals in 1956.


As noted above, both FGE and SFRD also had mechanicals in the period in question. 


Thus, it might be appropriate to narrow any further question to the particular company that you are interested in and then ask


3) What models are available? (It might also behoove you to first search the STMFC archives using the specific company name and mechcanical, e.g "FGE mechanical reefer".


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of mec-bml@... [STMFC]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 12:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR CARS
 


Ive got 2 questions on this type of car,would they fit within the steam era guide lines and if not then PLEASE ignore this question and if they do who offers a HO(either kit or RTR)for these cars..?????

Thanks

Joel Norman




Re: NYC 19000 Series Caboose

 

In addition to the various kits and r-t-r plastic models, there are several brass models of the NYC standard caboose.  LMB offered the first one many years ago.  More recent models have come from Precision Scale Company and Overland Models.   The short standard cabooses have been done in brass too – these are former LS&MS cabooses with two windows on each side – models from PSC and Overland.  Then there are the “Pacemaker” cabooses that were built in East Buffalo on boxcar frames, five of which were sheathed with plywood and painted red and grey for the Pacemaker freight train.  These East Buffalo cars are a bit longer than the standard cabooses and have steel underframes – no truss rods.  NJI-CB and Overland imported models of these cars.  Good articles on NYC cabooses were published many years ago in the NYCSHS Central Headlight.  I can provide road numbers, lot numbers, etc., for most NYC cabooses, including those built for the P&LE, T&OC, Big 4 and Michigan Central.  NYC also had two different series of steel bay-window cabooses, the earliest of which were delivered in 1949 and ran behind steam for seven or eight years.  Hope this helps a bit.  Hugh T Guillaume

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: NYC 19000 Series Caboose

Seth Lakin
 

As Ray said American Model Builders has a laser cut kit of the 19000. See my article in the 1st Quarter 2015 NYCentral Modeler, about building the AMB kit. 


Also the NYCSHS has an exclusive version of the AMB caboose with replacement plywood sides. 


These kits go together easily with little modeling experience needed. After building a general box that has tab and slot construction, most all other pieces are adhesive backed wood that go together simply removing the backing and sticking the piece to the kit.  I also should say that my modeling efforts that were documented in the article led to the NYCSHS plywood offering. 

Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN


Re: MAINLINE MODELER

Tony Thompson
 

     I've been interested in this thread, being the possessor of all published issues of MM. I realize many don't know, or have forgotten, that Bob Hundman explicitly began by recognizing both the production quality, and state-of-the-hobby techniques, in the Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette, and he intended MM to be the equivalent for the "main line modeler." I would say he accomplished that, and then some. For the first 20 years, every issue was beautifully done, though in the late years, his attention may have wandered, and I felt the quality fell off.
       Bob was a skilled draftsman, and produced a prodigious quantity of work, but unfortunately was a little cavalier about details, and many of the drawings contain various errors. Most are minor to be sure, but Bob's ego would not let him EVER admit error or publish any correction, whether of text or drawing. In fact, for most of the life of MM, he would not publish any letter that contained a criticism. When he did his reprint volumes, he reprinted every drawing as it originally was, even when he did know there were errors.
        I agree with those who say the impact on the hobby was immense. He did prototype coverage in a way undreamed of at MR and RMC (then and to some extent now), and as I said, the publication quality was simply excellent. I don't think the errors or idiosyncratic style should loom larger than the contribution.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: MAINLINE MODELER

Dave Nelson
 

I’m missing two just issues (I suspect one wasn’t actually published and the other is just some date in from the late years that I havn’t yet found).

 

The scratch building techniques are good.  Why all that effort never became masters for resin casting COMPLETELY escapes me.  I understand Bob always said nobody builds resin kits, exactly as if everyone was a master scratch builder like himself!  I also recall stories from the early years of these freight car lists where various list members recalled difficulty getting Bob to accept corrections and such.  Those stories left me with the distinct impression he knew what he knew and wasn’t interested in having that change, which should be at least a slight warning.

 

Lots of drawings and here’s where I have a problem: IMO the drawings are fine for making HO scale scratch built models.  They are not of any use for making 3d cad models so they’re difficult to use to create models for simulators and/or 3d printing.  Too much detail is left out and far too few dimensions are printed.   You’d do just as well with an ORER and some photos.  For some, this is a boon, for others a missed opportunity.

 

There are times when his lack of photos led him astray.  I think his Stock car book is one such example… a dogs breakfast of images having little to nothing to do with the text.

 

ALL that said, Mainline Modeler was, IMO, vastly superior to anything else published at the time.  It’s just not a panacea.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 12:12 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MAINLINE MODELER

One always should use photos to check drawings, as until the advent of the computer and photoshop “photos do not lie” (except when artfully airbrushed).

Charlie Vlk


Re: MECHANICAL REFRIGERATOR CARS

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Joel,

Which cars? If you are asking about mechanical reefers in general, then absolutely. I'm sure somebody here will cite experimental cars from way back, but in general, they began to appear roughly around 1950. Some of the earliest cars were 40-footers, but 50-foot cars were common by our roughly 1960 cut-off time.

If you are asking about specific cars, then someone here can probably tell you if they are allowable.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 5/23/16 1:02 PM, mec-bml@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Ive got 2 questions on this type of car,would they fit within the steam era guide lines and if not then PLEASE ignore this question and if they do who offers a HO(either kit or RTR)for these cars..?????

Thanks

Joel Norman



Re: MAINLINE MODELER

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

 
I replied directly to Mak's question on the relavalance of Mainline Modeler in today's world.  I wanted to share with him photos of a model that I did in the 70's to one that was recently completed.  I would challenge someone to identify which was which.  The point being that we model a period 60 plus years ago.  The content of the material has not changed.  Many new products have come on the market to aid in modeling  (such as the Yarmouht etchings) but also many quality  products have diasppeared (Tomalco clevised and Right-O-Way code 81 flex track).

We have many more quality modelers and models today thanks in large part to the STMCE list.  It
is great to get an instant answer to a question as opposed to taking months to determine the proper brake wheel.

I continually refer to MM for drawings and information.  Almost always when brousing through 
the issues I find something thwt was not relavent at the time but that I now need.  To me the
best modeling article ever was Gene Demling's article in an early 70's  Model Reilroader on
buiding anERIE covered hopper from styrene.  He included the complete rivit detail.  Gene is still
active4 and recently did a coboose article in RMC..  His modeling canalso be viewed on the
Proto 48 webiste and I believe that he has a blog.   This was a single article.  Mainline offered
quality articles every month.

Is the DVD worth the price?  I guess it depends on the modeler.  If I did not have a complete set
of MM it certainly would be for me.

Bill Pardie




On May 23, 2016, at 8:28 AM, Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Ray Breyer wrote:
"One caveat: while prolific, the plans in Mainline Modeler are generally good, but almost always suspect in some way. It's OK to use them as a general guide for modeling work, but! never be afraid to print out a few hardcopies and start marking them up based on a lengthy examination of prototype photos."

This is a supremely important point - at least three manufacturers (Gould, Ertl, Branchline) learned this sad fact the hard way. Hundman completely ignored redlines on drawings that accompanied one of my articles (the errors were pretty egregious), and the drawing that was published is a trap fro the unwary.

Ben Hom



Re: MAINLINE MODELER

Charlie Vlk
 

Ben-

This is true of most if not all published plans…..including railroad and manufacturer general arrangement drawings, no matter how well presented.

Way back in the beginning of my careers I worked in an architect’s office and one of the worst jobs you could be assigned was making “As-Built” drawings…..correcting civil, architectural, mechanical, electrical and structural drawing tracings to what the contractors actually built.   It involved deciphering cryptic field notes, cross-referencing brochures and shop drawings for individual components, etc.  

Even the Dean of Model Railroad Drawings, J. Harold Geissel, made boo-boos on his drawings.   Some time after he passed I was able to pick up a pencil sketch of the “Burlington Bobber” that appeared in the November 1954 Model Railroader.   His pen and ink version of the drawing was not as accurate as the original sketch when compared to railroad mechanical drawings and photos.

One always should use photos to check drawings, as until the advent of the computer and photoshop “photos do not lie” (except when artfully airbrushed).

Charlie Vlk

"One caveat: while prolific, the plans in Mainline Modeler are generally good, but almost always suspect in some way. It's OK to use them as a general guide for modeling work, but! never be afraid to print out a few hardcopies and start marking them up based on a lengthy examination of prototype photos."

This is a supremely important point - at least three manufacturers (Gould, Ertl, Branchline) learned this sad fact the hard way. Hundman completely ignored redlines on drawings that accompanied one of my articles (the errors were pretty egregious), and the drawing that was published is a trap fro the unwary.

Ben Hom


Re: MAINLINE MODELER

Curt Fortenberry
 


I asked the Chessie Shop if they would post a sample to view the quality.  They said they would but I'm not seeing it just yet.  They did send me a sample PDF so it's available.  If interested I would contact them, they were very responsive.  I'm reluctant to post it since it's their product. 

Curt Fortenberry


Re: MAINLINE MODELER

Benjamin Hom
 

Ray Breyer wrote:
"One caveat: while prolific, the plans in Mainline Modeler are generally good, but almost always suspect in some way. It's OK to use them as a general guide for modeling work, but! never be afraid to print out a few hardcopies and start marking them up based on a lengthy examination of prototype photos."

This is a supremely important point - at least three manufacturers (Gould, Ertl, Branchline) learned this sad fact the hard way. Hundman completely ignored redlines on drawings that accompanied one of my articles (the errors were pretty egregious), and the drawing that was published is a trap fro the unwary.


Ben Hom


Re: NYC 19000 Series Caboose

Noel Widdifield
 

We have the AMB kits in Plywood & Scribed side in the NYCSHS Collinwood Shop.  Welcome to NYCSHS - The Collinwood Shop       20% discount for NYCSHS members.

20% discountf


Re: MAINLINE MODELER

Ray Breyer
 


>I was not in the hobby during the 25 years of Mainline Modeler so I only have a passing understand of the content and its value. 
>So with the C&O Historical Society offering the complete works on DVD for $249 the question is, with all the changes in the industry 
>is the information still relevant today? In other words is the price paid worth the hobby dollar?
>Thanks
>Mark P Stamm


Almost without question, the information in Mainline Modeler is fantastic, and more than relevant today. Unlike most hobby magazines that focus on layout tours, better box opening for success, and on whiz-bang electronics, MM focused on quality prototype research and on how to accurately model a given prototype, all of which is 'timeless information'.

If you plan on being anywhere near a 'sincere prototype modeler', the styrene scratchbuilding techniques of Al Armitage and Bob Hundman are worth the $249 sticker price alone. Not only do the articles show you what and how, but how not to be AFRAID of actually building a model from nothing more than an assortment of raw materials.

One caveat: while prolific, the plans in Mainline Modeler are generally good, but almost always suspect in some way. It's OK to use them as a general guide for modeling work, but never be afraid to print out a few hardcopies and start marking them up based on a lengthy examination of prototype photos.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Re: MAINLINE MODELER

Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
 

Charlie raises an important point about the quality of model magazine scans. I’m disappointed that the MR DVD scans are such low resolution that printed text is fuzzy (pixilated). I would consider purchasing the Mainline Modeler DVD if the quality of the scans is better than the MR scans. How about a review of the Mainline Modeler DVD from some of the C&O or other users? Are the drawings sharp? How well did the B&W photos scan? Can the photos be enlarged to study car details without pixilation? Are pages scanned individually or as two page spreads like Morning Sun did with their eBooks? Can the DVD be printed (unlike Morning Sun eBooks)? Can he DVD files be downloaded to a computer (unlike Morning Sun eBooks which are on the cloud even though you bought them!).



Nelson Moyer



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 12:32 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MAINLINE MODELER





Mark-

As a consultant to the Model Railroad Industry, Mainline Modeler is one of the go-to periodicals I use as a reference.

If I did not have a complete print run of the magazine I would certainly get the DVD, and still might if the resolution of the drawings is better than the Model Railroader scanned collection just for the convenience of having the search function.

Model Railroader, Railroad Model Craftsman, and some of the other general interest magazines often had/have good information but not in the scope and depth of Mainline Modeler.

Specialty magazines like X2200 and Diesel Era are the other ones that are key references.

Charlie Vlk

Railroad Model Resources



I was not in the hobby during the 25 years of Mainline Modeler so I only have a passing understand of the content and its value. So with the C&O Historical Society offering the complete works on DVD for $249 the question is, with all the changes in the industry is the information still relevant today? In other words is the price paid worth the hobby dollar?



Thanks

Mark

Mark P Stamm





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