Date   

Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Walter
 

Scott,

I had an empty placed for the loading of potatoes. When I opened the hatches to install heaters, I found the bunkers full of ice. By this time the car had been loaded and I wasn't about to ask that the load be removed. We used ice tongs and breaker bar to manually remove five tons of ice and installed the heaters.

Walter Ohrnell


[CBQ] Caboose Hobbies

 



Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Kenneth Martin kmartin537@... [CBQ]" <CBQ@...>
Date: July 14, 2016 at 8:13:20 PM CDT
To: CB&Q Group <cbq@...>
Subject: [CBQ] Caboose Hobbies
Reply-To: CBQ@...

Just got word that Caboose Hobbies in Denver got a 90 notice to vacate the building they are in as it may have been sold.
 

Ken Martin


Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

mark_landgraf
 

White Oak is known to not absorb much of anything. If the cars were lined with it, then presumably the moisture would be surface rather than soaked in. I don't think mold would be a problem in this situation. 

What kind of wood was used inside these reefers?

Mark  

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
From: destorzek@... [STMFC]
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 2:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Reply To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

 




---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Regarding whether bunkers ever dried out I am wondering how many days with a heater in them would it take for a bunker to "dry out?"

=================

Probably about forever, since there was no ventilation (remember, cars in heater service were placarded "POISON FUMES") so no place for the water to go. I can envision the water just condensing back out as it contacted cooler surfaces of the car interior.

No one has answered my previous question; Has anyone run into specifications for a cleaning solution to be used while cleaning the cars? That would be the answer to mold and mildew.

Dennis Storzek




Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Chuck and Friends,

I presume one of these products is the Oakite you mentioned, or a lineal descendant of same: http://www.chemetallna.com/products/by_app/generalMaint.aspx

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 7/14/16 5:55 PM, Charles Peck lnnrr152@... [STMFC] wrote:
 
Folks,  Oakite was a brandname of a line of cleaners used by many railroads.  Tank cleaning, hot soaks,
 degreasing, washing solutions, etc.  If some product literature from Oakite could be found, a listed
product use might include disinfecting reefers. Just a possible search area.
Chuck Peck

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 2:24 PM, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 




---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Regarding whether bunkers ever dried out I am wondering how many days with a heater in them would it take for a bunker to "dry out?"

=================

Probably about forever, since there was no ventilation (remember, cars in heater service were placarded "POISON FUMES") so no place for the water to go. I can envision the water just condensing back out as it contacted cooler surfaces of the car interior.

No one has answered my previous question; Has anyone run into specifications for a cleaning solution to be used while cleaning the cars? That would be the answer to mold and mildew.

Dennis Storzek





MILW 23162

al_brown03
 

Pending moderators' approval, I've posted to an album in the Photos section titled "MILW 23162", three photos of an HO model of that car. It's a 40' rib-side boxcar, an Intermountain kit detailed mostly per Ted Culotta's "PRRP 2". Accurail Bettendorf trucks, Hi-Tech air hoses, styrene slack adjuster (Ted's is made from aluminum), and a wire bleed rod.
Scalecoat II Oxide Red paint, Speedwitch D139 decals; carmen's marks Sunshine, Jerry Glow, Speedwitch; weathered with Bragdon powders and pan pastels.
Wider, RP CYC 13 pp 1-75; Culotta, RMC 7/05 pp 95-103 and PRRP 2.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.



Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Charles Peck
 

Folks,  Oakite was a brandname of a line of cleaners used by many railroads.  Tank cleaning, hot soaks,
 degreasing, washing solutions, etc.  If some product literature from Oakite could be found, a listed
product use might include disinfecting reefers. Just a possible search area.
Chuck Peck

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 2:24 PM, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 




---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Regarding whether bunkers ever dried out I am wondering how many days with a heater in them would it take for a bunker to "dry out?"

=================

Probably about forever, since there was no ventilation (remember, cars in heater service were placarded "POISON FUMES") so no place for the water to go. I can envision the water just condensing back out as it contacted cooler surfaces of the car interior.

No one has answered my previous question; Has anyone run into specifications for a cleaning solution to be used while cleaning the cars? That would be the answer to mold and mildew.

Dennis Storzek




Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Bill Welch
 

Good point Dennis, I am sure you are correct.

Bill Welch


Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <fgexbill@...> wrote :

Regarding whether bunkers ever dried out I am wondering how many days with a heater in them would it take for a bunker to "dry out?"

=================

Probably about forever, since there was no ventilation (remember, cars in heater service were placarded "POISON FUMES") so no place for the water to go. I can envision the water just condensing back out as it contacted cooler surfaces of the car interior.

No one has answered my previous question; Has anyone run into specifications for a cleaning solution to be used while cleaning the cars? That would be the answer to mold and mildew.

Dennis Storzek



Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Clearing Ice From Cars)

thecitrusbelt@...
 

I'm probably never going to get a definitive answer to my original question about preventing mold and mildew, but I did have the information below about cleaning ice from refrigerator cars. I came across an article from the May 1954 issue of The Milwaukee Road Magazine (https://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/MilwaukeeRoadMagazine/1954May.pdf)

which featured an article on refrigerator car cleaning. The text is reprinted below.

 

There were several photos accompanying the original article.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

++++

Refrigerator Car Cleaning at Milwaukee

 

A NEW development in the thorough and speedy cleaning of refrigerator cars, the most modern facility of its kind to be found on any railroad, has been installed at the Milwaukee Road's Bluemound yard in Milwaukee. In service for more than two months, this car deicing and cleaning system has already shown a marked improvement in the availability and clean condition of refrigerator cars.

 

Few aspects of railroading are more dramatic, or more complex, than the providing of "reefer" service for the many perishable products requiring refrigeration, heat or ventilation in transit. In such cars the railroads transport during the month of May alone an average of almost two pounds of fresh fruits and vegetables for every American. This is in addition to the many other products which for various reasons must also be carried in refrigerator cars. Being a very important factor in this special traffic, it was only natural that The Milwaukee Road should playa pioneer role in seeking methods for further improving its refrigerator car service.

 

Basically, the need was for a fast method of clearing ice from the bunkers of the cars in the late fall and winter, when many shipments require the placement of heaters in the space at the ends of the cars which is normally filled with ice during warm weather. Working in crews on a kind of assembly-line basis, men operating the new facility clear away the ice with water heated to a temperature of 190 degrees F. The water is forced through long hoses under pressure and ejected through flattened nozzles. Meanwhile, the interior of the car is swept and also hosed out if ice has been used in the body, or if decayed vegetable matter has been left from the previous load. With hose connections at convenient intervals along the cleaning track, the crews move at a steady pace from car to car, virtually "scrubbing" them as they go.

 

The cleaning track, the most easterly of those in Bluemound yard, has a capacity of 67 cars. The expectation is that during the peak season, beginning about December, those 67 cars can be de-iced, completely swept and washed, if necessary, and pulled onto a storage track during the morning hours. Another group of 67 cars can probably be similarly worked during the afternoon for a total of more than 130 refrigerator cars daily.

 

Ralph D. Claborn, special assistant to operating vice president, laid the basic plans for the new system. Its operation comes under the jurisdiction of Roadmaster F. V. McLarnon, and under the immediate supervision of Foreman

A. S. Crivello. At the end of March a force of seven hosemen and three laborers were employed at the cleaning track.

 

A study made in 1952 revealed that a total of 32,863 cars were cleaned at various locations in Milwaukee, of which 15,391 were cleaned during the deicing months of January, February, March, April, November and December. Of these, 8,570 were "wet" cars, containing either bunker or body ice, or both. During the same period, 2,080 refrigerator cars were cleaned at outlying points on the Madison Division, and several hundred were cleaned on the LaCrosse & River Division and the Milwaukee Division. It is expected that virtually all of these cars can now be cleaned at the special facility in Milwaukee and made available throughout the area more quickly. It is also expected that the new system will practically eliminate damage to cars, especially to the floor racks.

 

Bluemound yard is strategically located for this operation, as it is near the several famous Milwaukee breweries served by The Milwaukee Road, principal users of refrigerator cars on a year-round basis. It is interesting to note, however, that beer is not ordinarily shipped under refrigeration, although extremely cold weather or the threat of it sometimes necessitates the use of heaters in the bunkers.

 

As a matter of fact, about one-half of the perishable traffic moving in refrigerator cars does not use refrigeration of any kind. Approximately one-third of such traffic moves under ventilation only, and another tenth requires heater service.

 

By mid-April the new facility had already set a record of 163 cars cleaned in one day. As the weather became warmer, of course, there was less need for removal of ice and the operation became one principally of cleaning the interiors of the cars. Whatever the type of cleaning involved, however, the crews operating the new facility have proved their ability to better serve shippers in the Milwaukee area by providing them with the clean refrigerator cars they need, when they need them.

 





Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Bill Welch
 

I have been following this thread and have these thoughts/questions, none of which really respond to Scott.

Depending on the time of year, the northern tier of states—WFE territory, NP too—was heater territory, requiring the removal of ice and placement of heaters in the bunkers. Depending on the icing instructions the ice may have been combined with salt, lowering the temperature enough I would think to make the ice really hard, this making the job even more time consuming. I cannot swear to it at the moment but I believe I have read among my resource I have that "blow torches" were used to loosen the ice. Regardless this whole chore must have been really challenging for the crews since the cars stay loaded and the change needed to be done with some expediency.

Regarding whether bunkers ever dried out I am wondering how many days with a heater in them would it take for a bunker to "dry out?"

Bill Welch


Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Tony Thompson
 

Scott Chatfield wrote:

 

Tony Thompson wrote:

>PFE removed ice from westward empties at places like Tucson and North Platte...

Okay, I'll bite. How did they do this? Pour hot water into the bunker until all the ice melted? That would take lots of water. Neither place had a surplus of water. Or did they just open the doors and hatches until the ice melted and the melt water ran out the drains?

        As our British friends would say, Scott, you got it in one. There are photos at North Platte of workmen with hot-water hoses. see for example page 248 in the PFE book.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Tony Thompson wrote:

PFE removed ice from westward empties at places like Tucson and North Platte...
Okay, I'll bite. How did they do this? Pour hot water into the bunker until all the ice melted? That would take lots of water. Neither place had a surplus of water. Or did they just open the doors and hatches until the ice melted and the melt water ran out the drains?

Or?

Scott Chatfield


Airbrushes & Airbrushing at Collinsville RPM August 12-13

Bill Welch
 

Forgive the interruption for shameless self promotion but I will be repeating my "Airbrushes 101 and Spraying Acrylics" at the Collinsville RPM event. More details about this will follow.


Also, if I can coral enough people to help me we will offer to 40 participants the opportunity to try out spraying Badger's Modelflex Acrylic Paint with a double action internal mix airbrush. Sign-up for this will be at the RPM. More details about this will also follow.


To get a little glimpse of what I am talking about and RPM events in general, I refer you too this Blog item from the Resin Car Works website:

An RPM event at The Beach

Now back to our scheduled programing.


Bill Welch



Re: Color for Structural Steel Loads

destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <johnsykesiii@...> wrote :

Back in the day, a lot of fabricated steel items were primed with red lead paint before shipping.  Oxide red (I use Krylon oxide red primer) is good for this.

-- John
===============

My memories of red lead primer (which the ironworkers still used during assembly when I worked for the transit authority years ago) was that it was almost reefer orange. Think Golden Gate bridge. The bridge was supposed to be finished some other color; people got so used to seeing it orange during the years it was being constructed that it was decided to just color match to the primer.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Saying goodby to Chuck Yungkurth

Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
 

Tom, thank you so much for your deeply thoughtful, respectful, and admiring comments on the life and contributions of Chuck Yungkurth. Both his and your admiring thoughts on the high contributions of those great modelers of the earlier days of our hobby ring so very, very true. As I peruse and research old modeling literature, I am constantly stunned at what was modeled, and was modeled well by modelers such as Chuck, using materials, methods, and resources that so many today (in ignorance or envy) scoff at or dismiss.

We owe these modelers a lot. R.I.P.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD


Okoboji, IA


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Color for Structural Steel Loads (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED

Bill;

I totally agree with Rich. USS painted structural shapes black for those customers that wanted it protected from rusting during transit and storage if they were asked or thought it appropriate, otherwise, the shapes were untreated. The color that they were depended on what kind of steel they were made of, but most looked a kind of silvery gunmetal blue-grey. Plate or unprotected sheet was that color, with patches of rust depending on how it was shipped. Plate or sheet in stacks on flat cars got the rustiest. Shapes got less rusty since the rainwater could not pool on it as well. I never saw painted slabs, billets or blooms, regardless how far they might travel. Hot coil was never painted. Cold rolled coil was not painted, but always shipped under cover, in box cars, dedicated coil gons, or coil cars.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 11:45 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] Color for Structural Steel Loads



To some extent it depends on manufacturer. American Bridge painted everything a bright orange. J&L painted it black. These are the two I am currently modeling and have researched loads from the early 50's to get the color and logos correct. Other products such as pipe from McKeesport Tube works of US Steel were black. Christy works were gray (mostly bomb casings for DOD). Plate steel tended to be raw steel.

Rich Orr



-----Original Message-----
From: webotkin@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wed, Jul 13, 2016 3:02 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Color for Structural Steel Loads




I am building some structural steel loads for flat cars and gons for my 1950's ear railroad. Modern loads of structural steel, such as I-beams and H-columns, have a dark bluish-gray color with some evidence of rust on the ends and edges. However, I have not been able to find photos of similar loads from the 1950's era and wondered if the steel loads from that era basically looked the same as modern-day steel or is modern structural steel treated somehow that results in the dark bluish-gray color?


Thanks.


Bill Botkin
Centennial, CO




CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED


Saying goodby to Chuck Yungkurth

Tom Madden
 

The memorial gathering for hobby icon and long-time STMFC member Chuck Yungkurth was held at the Colorado Railroad Museum on Tuesday morning. Chuck and his wife, Mary, moved to Colorado in 1999, four years after he retired from IBM in the Binghamton NY area. Mary died in 2012. Chuck was 86 when he died in May, and as a result outlived almost all of his hobby and professional contemporaries from his New York days. Aside from his family, all the attendees were from Colorado. Only a few of us had known Chuck before he moved here. The CRRM picnic pavilion was the perfect spot for the event, and it was a gorgeous day.

 

Chuck’s sons and daughters shared memories of growing up with a father fixated on model railroading – particularly the smells of sawdust, solder, paint and photo processing chemicals emanating from the basement in those simpler times. Others of us contributed our own Chuck stories. I mentioned how he had told me his engineering knowledge and expertise in structure design prevented him from appreciating excellent modelwork if the structure itself had design flaws, or was inadequate for the purpose the modeler had chosen. A spindly trestle which would have looked great under a logging Shay just didn’t cut the mustard if a Big Boy was posed on it. Diagonals going the wrong way, compression and tension members reversed, piers and footings mislocated – he instantly recognized these. I asked him if he ever mentioned these flaws to the modeler. He said, “Only if asked, and I’ll only answer honestly if I know the modeler. And I’ll only answer really honestly if I know the modeler really well.”

 

This ability to withhold gratuitous criticism marked Chuck as a real gentleman, and he learned that through experience. A family album on display contained one of those “local boy makes good” clippings, the kind your parents put in the local paper to embarrass you when you’ve finally done something noteworthy that doesn’t embarrass them. The clipping was from 1955, featured a yearbook head shot of a young Chuck, and went on at some length about his having an article on constructing a Vanderbilt tank car published in MODEL TRAINS magazine at the age of 25. That means Chuck’s contributions to the hobby spanned 60 years. I didn’t mention it at the gathering, but Chuck told me on more than one occasion about letters, emails or phone calls from “fans” wanting to engage him in in-depth discussions of something he wrote or drew half a century ago. Or, worse, wanting to call to his attention some error they thought they had uncovered in a similarly ancient article of his. Or wanting him to justify why he had taken approach “A” to modeling when approach “B” was obviously better. Chuck was proud of his body of work, and this attention frustrated him. “They have no idea of context, of what we had to work with. I barely remember the article, let alone what I was thinking. They think they’re finding errors, but they weren’t errors at the time. Must be an ego thing.”

 

Here on the STMFC we traffic in information. Much of it is put forth in response to requests, some is the result of research or modeling projects, the rest is offered in the hope that others might find it useful or interesting. On very rare occasions there comes an unsolicited critical blast about some model, or manufacturer, or concept and you wonder, what was that about? In reflecting on Chuck and my friendship with him, when I see such a diatribe on any forum I no longer wonder.

 

It’s an ego thing.


Tom "Always in a reflective mood after memorials" Madden


Re: Color for Structural Steel Loads

SUVCWORR@...
 

To some extent it depends on manufacturer.  American Bridge painted everything a bright orange.  J&L painted it black.  These are the two I am currently modeling and have researched loads from the early 50's to get the color and logos correct.  Other products such as pipe from McKeesport Tube works of US Steel were black.  Christy works were gray (mostly bomb casings for DOD).  Plate steel tended to be raw steel.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: webotkin@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Wed, Jul 13, 2016 3:02 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Color for Structural Steel Loads



I am building some structural steel loads for flat cars and gons for my 1950's ear railroad.  Modern loads of structural steel, such as I-beams and H-columns, have a dark bluish-gray color with some evidence of rust on the ends and edges.  However, I have not been able to find photos of similar loads from the 1950's era and wondered if the steel loads from that era basically looked the same as modern-day steel or is modern structural steel treated somehow that results in the dark bluish-gray color?

Thanks.

Bill Botkin
Centennial, CO



Re: CRI&P 40' box car decals?

twinstarcars
 

Tom, 
The lettering for the "Route of the Rockets" text in the Mask Island sets 257 &  258 seems too small for the pictures I have compared to as well as several other manufactures sets. I did talk to Hubert about this and he indicated the size is per drawings he has. Mask Island decals are great to use so its a personal decision. Steve Hile also makes several sets which are suitable for your model. 

Ross Dando
Meridian, Idaho


Re: Color for Structural Steel Loads

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I’ve seen both gray and the red lead primer color on both “raw” steel shapes (not fabricated to size and/or drilled for rivets or bolts) and on fabricated members. I think that the engineer designing the building or bridge or whatever the steel was to be used for has an option, at least with some mills, to have the steel prime painted before shipping from the mills. I’d say that if a project was in a marine environment, for example, pre-painting with red lead would be beneficial for better adhesion to the steel.



Schuyler



And that's the difference between a load of rolled shapes and a load of fabricated steel. If you add some clips, lots of holes for rivets, or a pad with lots of rivets on it, then it should be reddish-orange. If it's just straight H beams or I beams or similar, it should be that steel gray color.

Ron Merrick
(who really works with pipe, not structurals)





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