Date   

Re: I Have Your Reefers And You'll Get The Back When I Feel Like It

Jim Betz
 

Hello friends,

Actually it isn't a -lot- more likely that a car will get forgotten (left sitting
some where rather than moved as quickly as possible) just because it is a
"foreign" car. Home road cars were left sitting without earning pretty
much just as often as those from other roads ...
Admittedly there was a higher revenue gain from using the home road
cars ... but the crews weren't necessarily going to pay a lot of attention
to that.

The time when a home road car made a lot more money was when it
was serving home road destinations ... on both ends of the haul (from
and to were both home road).
But when you stop to think about it for a bit - a lot of the uses of RR
shipping didn't have that aspect.

Filling the demand (shipper requests an empty/delivering a loaded
car/moving a loaded car) were the -primary- concerns. All other concerns
were secondary to those needs.
But paying attention to the costs related to a car just "sitting
some where" was still important.

I'm just pointing out that this wasn't all that much more important
based upon whether the car was home road or not (to the crews
doing the work).

****

When cars are in short supply - whether that situation is short or
long term - it was/is easy to "blame the system". And the car
service rules were designed to keep the system working as well
as can be expected.

Certainly the crews took actions - daily/all the time - that contributed
to the bottom line efficiency of the RR. All too often they "did what
they were told" (by the clerks) and so a car (or cars) can get left
sitting far longer than a "perfect" system would indicate it should.
Just as often as not the real reason for a car sitting some where
for a long time is that it has gotten "lost" by the clerks ... if no one
"knows" it is sitting some where it isn't likely to be included in the
list of things to do today.
- Jim B.


Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <wohrnell@...> wrote :

Dennis,

Only if they had charcoal heaters, it was mandatory to have two present when working with charcoal heater. The liquid fueled heaters did not have this warning.

Walter Ohrnell

===========
Yeah, I guess the charcoal was really good at filling the small enclosed space with carbon monoxide... same reason it's not a good idea to barbecue in your bathtub. But my point was really, when in heater service the cars weren't set up to ventilate, so they wouldn't really dry out; all the water in the car stayed in the car, although the heat may have redistributed it somewhat.

Dennis Storzek


Re: I Have Your Reefers And You'll Get The Back When I Feel Like It

Greg Martin
 

I would agree with Paul. Even if the cars are paid per diem it means little to a crew that feels they have enough on their plate and three or four cars is not an emergency.
 
Crews also use the term "pickle" cars to avoid the calls. If you worked the yard no matter how small or how many tracks (it could be as small as two) and you served a wide distance on a daily basis and your work schedule brought you back to the yard maybe twice a week those cars are going to sit. Later they are set out on a siding for a through train to pick up.
 
How many times have I said that a car applicators worst nightmare was of assets going offline?
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 7/12/2016 9:31:47 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

Jim:

I don’t think the subject jumped the tracks.  Re-Read Bob’s statement.  These reefers were not on the SP, UP or SF, but were somewhere at the end of their revenue trip.  The road holding was not paying out any money to let them sit where they were.  At most the yard holding would get a call from either the SFRD or PFE car clerk requesting that the cars get moving.  If the Yardmaster had no crews or locomotives the cars would just sit.  Nobody up the chain was going to rattle any cages.  Trust me I’ve been there and done that.  That was the real world.

Paul C. Koehler


Re: Color for Structural Steel Loads

Greg Martin
 

Rich,
 
You're right and as I remember the steel moving from American Bridge has their name on each piece as well. I remember them moving down river from Conway, PA.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 7/13/2016 8:45:32 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

To some extent it depends on manufacturer.  American Bridge painted everything a bright orange.  J&L painted it black.  These are the two I am currently modeling and have researched loads from the early 50's to get the color and logos correct.  Other products such as pipe from McKeesport Tube works of US Steel were black.  Christy works were gray (mostly bomb casings for DOD).  Plate steel tended to be raw steel.


Rich Orr


Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Walter
 

Dennis,

Only if they had charcoal heaters, it was mandatory to have two present when working with charcoal heater. The liquid fueled heaters did not have this warning.

Walter Ohrnell


Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Walter
 

Scott,

I had an empty placed for the loading of potatoes. When I opened the hatches to install heaters, I found the bunkers full of ice. By this time the car had been loaded and I wasn't about to ask that the load be removed. We used ice tongs and breaker bar to manually remove five tons of ice and installed the heaters.

Walter Ohrnell


[CBQ] Caboose Hobbies

 



Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Kenneth Martin kmartin537@... [CBQ]" <CBQ@...>
Date: July 14, 2016 at 8:13:20 PM CDT
To: CB&Q Group <cbq@...>
Subject: [CBQ] Caboose Hobbies
Reply-To: CBQ@...

Just got word that Caboose Hobbies in Denver got a 90 notice to vacate the building they are in as it may have been sold.
 

Ken Martin


Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

mark_landgraf
 

White Oak is known to not absorb much of anything. If the cars were lined with it, then presumably the moisture would be surface rather than soaked in. I don't think mold would be a problem in this situation. 

What kind of wood was used inside these reefers?

Mark  

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
From: destorzek@... [STMFC]
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 2:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Reply To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

 




---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Regarding whether bunkers ever dried out I am wondering how many days with a heater in them would it take for a bunker to "dry out?"

=================

Probably about forever, since there was no ventilation (remember, cars in heater service were placarded "POISON FUMES") so no place for the water to go. I can envision the water just condensing back out as it contacted cooler surfaces of the car interior.

No one has answered my previous question; Has anyone run into specifications for a cleaning solution to be used while cleaning the cars? That would be the answer to mold and mildew.

Dennis Storzek




Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Chuck and Friends,

I presume one of these products is the Oakite you mentioned, or a lineal descendant of same: http://www.chemetallna.com/products/by_app/generalMaint.aspx

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 7/14/16 5:55 PM, Charles Peck lnnrr152@... [STMFC] wrote:
 
Folks,  Oakite was a brandname of a line of cleaners used by many railroads.  Tank cleaning, hot soaks,
 degreasing, washing solutions, etc.  If some product literature from Oakite could be found, a listed
product use might include disinfecting reefers. Just a possible search area.
Chuck Peck

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 2:24 PM, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 




---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Regarding whether bunkers ever dried out I am wondering how many days with a heater in them would it take for a bunker to "dry out?"

=================

Probably about forever, since there was no ventilation (remember, cars in heater service were placarded "POISON FUMES") so no place for the water to go. I can envision the water just condensing back out as it contacted cooler surfaces of the car interior.

No one has answered my previous question; Has anyone run into specifications for a cleaning solution to be used while cleaning the cars? That would be the answer to mold and mildew.

Dennis Storzek





MILW 23162

al_brown03
 

Pending moderators' approval, I've posted to an album in the Photos section titled "MILW 23162", three photos of an HO model of that car. It's a 40' rib-side boxcar, an Intermountain kit detailed mostly per Ted Culotta's "PRRP 2". Accurail Bettendorf trucks, Hi-Tech air hoses, styrene slack adjuster (Ted's is made from aluminum), and a wire bleed rod.
Scalecoat II Oxide Red paint, Speedwitch D139 decals; carmen's marks Sunshine, Jerry Glow, Speedwitch; weathered with Bragdon powders and pan pastels.
Wider, RP CYC 13 pp 1-75; Culotta, RMC 7/05 pp 95-103 and PRRP 2.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.



Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Charles Peck
 

Folks,  Oakite was a brandname of a line of cleaners used by many railroads.  Tank cleaning, hot soaks,
 degreasing, washing solutions, etc.  If some product literature from Oakite could be found, a listed
product use might include disinfecting reefers. Just a possible search area.
Chuck Peck

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 2:24 PM, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 




---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Regarding whether bunkers ever dried out I am wondering how many days with a heater in them would it take for a bunker to "dry out?"

=================

Probably about forever, since there was no ventilation (remember, cars in heater service were placarded "POISON FUMES") so no place for the water to go. I can envision the water just condensing back out as it contacted cooler surfaces of the car interior.

No one has answered my previous question; Has anyone run into specifications for a cleaning solution to be used while cleaning the cars? That would be the answer to mold and mildew.

Dennis Storzek




Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Bill Welch
 

Good point Dennis, I am sure you are correct.

Bill Welch


Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <fgexbill@...> wrote :

Regarding whether bunkers ever dried out I am wondering how many days with a heater in them would it take for a bunker to "dry out?"

=================

Probably about forever, since there was no ventilation (remember, cars in heater service were placarded "POISON FUMES") so no place for the water to go. I can envision the water just condensing back out as it contacted cooler surfaces of the car interior.

No one has answered my previous question; Has anyone run into specifications for a cleaning solution to be used while cleaning the cars? That would be the answer to mold and mildew.

Dennis Storzek



Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Clearing Ice From Cars)

thecitrusbelt@...
 

I'm probably never going to get a definitive answer to my original question about preventing mold and mildew, but I did have the information below about cleaning ice from refrigerator cars. I came across an article from the May 1954 issue of The Milwaukee Road Magazine (https://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/MilwaukeeRoadMagazine/1954May.pdf)

which featured an article on refrigerator car cleaning. The text is reprinted below.

 

There were several photos accompanying the original article.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

++++

Refrigerator Car Cleaning at Milwaukee

 

A NEW development in the thorough and speedy cleaning of refrigerator cars, the most modern facility of its kind to be found on any railroad, has been installed at the Milwaukee Road's Bluemound yard in Milwaukee. In service for more than two months, this car deicing and cleaning system has already shown a marked improvement in the availability and clean condition of refrigerator cars.

 

Few aspects of railroading are more dramatic, or more complex, than the providing of "reefer" service for the many perishable products requiring refrigeration, heat or ventilation in transit. In such cars the railroads transport during the month of May alone an average of almost two pounds of fresh fruits and vegetables for every American. This is in addition to the many other products which for various reasons must also be carried in refrigerator cars. Being a very important factor in this special traffic, it was only natural that The Milwaukee Road should playa pioneer role in seeking methods for further improving its refrigerator car service.

 

Basically, the need was for a fast method of clearing ice from the bunkers of the cars in the late fall and winter, when many shipments require the placement of heaters in the space at the ends of the cars which is normally filled with ice during warm weather. Working in crews on a kind of assembly-line basis, men operating the new facility clear away the ice with water heated to a temperature of 190 degrees F. The water is forced through long hoses under pressure and ejected through flattened nozzles. Meanwhile, the interior of the car is swept and also hosed out if ice has been used in the body, or if decayed vegetable matter has been left from the previous load. With hose connections at convenient intervals along the cleaning track, the crews move at a steady pace from car to car, virtually "scrubbing" them as they go.

 

The cleaning track, the most easterly of those in Bluemound yard, has a capacity of 67 cars. The expectation is that during the peak season, beginning about December, those 67 cars can be de-iced, completely swept and washed, if necessary, and pulled onto a storage track during the morning hours. Another group of 67 cars can probably be similarly worked during the afternoon for a total of more than 130 refrigerator cars daily.

 

Ralph D. Claborn, special assistant to operating vice president, laid the basic plans for the new system. Its operation comes under the jurisdiction of Roadmaster F. V. McLarnon, and under the immediate supervision of Foreman

A. S. Crivello. At the end of March a force of seven hosemen and three laborers were employed at the cleaning track.

 

A study made in 1952 revealed that a total of 32,863 cars were cleaned at various locations in Milwaukee, of which 15,391 were cleaned during the deicing months of January, February, March, April, November and December. Of these, 8,570 were "wet" cars, containing either bunker or body ice, or both. During the same period, 2,080 refrigerator cars were cleaned at outlying points on the Madison Division, and several hundred were cleaned on the LaCrosse & River Division and the Milwaukee Division. It is expected that virtually all of these cars can now be cleaned at the special facility in Milwaukee and made available throughout the area more quickly. It is also expected that the new system will practically eliminate damage to cars, especially to the floor racks.

 

Bluemound yard is strategically located for this operation, as it is near the several famous Milwaukee breweries served by The Milwaukee Road, principal users of refrigerator cars on a year-round basis. It is interesting to note, however, that beer is not ordinarily shipped under refrigeration, although extremely cold weather or the threat of it sometimes necessitates the use of heaters in the bunkers.

 

As a matter of fact, about one-half of the perishable traffic moving in refrigerator cars does not use refrigeration of any kind. Approximately one-third of such traffic moves under ventilation only, and another tenth requires heater service.

 

By mid-April the new facility had already set a record of 163 cars cleaned in one day. As the weather became warmer, of course, there was less need for removal of ice and the operation became one principally of cleaning the interiors of the cars. Whatever the type of cleaning involved, however, the crews operating the new facility have proved their ability to better serve shippers in the Milwaukee area by providing them with the clean refrigerator cars they need, when they need them.

 





Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Bill Welch
 

I have been following this thread and have these thoughts/questions, none of which really respond to Scott.

Depending on the time of year, the northern tier of states—WFE territory, NP too—was heater territory, requiring the removal of ice and placement of heaters in the bunkers. Depending on the icing instructions the ice may have been combined with salt, lowering the temperature enough I would think to make the ice really hard, this making the job even more time consuming. I cannot swear to it at the moment but I believe I have read among my resource I have that "blow torches" were used to loosen the ice. Regardless this whole chore must have been really challenging for the crews since the cars stay loaded and the change needed to be done with some expediency.

Regarding whether bunkers ever dried out I am wondering how many days with a heater in them would it take for a bunker to "dry out?"

Bill Welch


Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

Tony Thompson
 

Scott Chatfield wrote:

 

Tony Thompson wrote:

>PFE removed ice from westward empties at places like Tucson and North Platte...

Okay, I'll bite. How did they do this? Pour hot water into the bunker until all the ice melted? That would take lots of water. Neither place had a surplus of water. Or did they just open the doors and hatches until the ice melted and the melt water ran out the drains?

        As our British friends would say, Scott, you got it in one. There are photos at North Platte of workmen with hot-water hoses. see for example page 248 in the PFE book.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Ice Bunker Reefers: Preventing Mold & Mildew (Open Hatch Covers)

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Tony Thompson wrote:

PFE removed ice from westward empties at places like Tucson and North Platte...
Okay, I'll bite. How did they do this? Pour hot water into the bunker until all the ice melted? That would take lots of water. Neither place had a surplus of water. Or did they just open the doors and hatches until the ice melted and the melt water ran out the drains?

Or?

Scott Chatfield


Airbrushes & Airbrushing at Collinsville RPM August 12-13

Bill Welch
 

Forgive the interruption for shameless self promotion but I will be repeating my "Airbrushes 101 and Spraying Acrylics" at the Collinsville RPM event. More details about this will follow.


Also, if I can coral enough people to help me we will offer to 40 participants the opportunity to try out spraying Badger's Modelflex Acrylic Paint with a double action internal mix airbrush. Sign-up for this will be at the RPM. More details about this will also follow.


To get a little glimpse of what I am talking about and RPM events in general, I refer you too this Blog item from the Resin Car Works website:

An RPM event at The Beach

Now back to our scheduled programing.


Bill Welch



Re: Color for Structural Steel Loads

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <johnsykesiii@...> wrote :

Back in the day, a lot of fabricated steel items were primed with red lead paint before shipping.  Oxide red (I use Krylon oxide red primer) is good for this.

-- John
===============

My memories of red lead primer (which the ironworkers still used during assembly when I worked for the transit authority years ago) was that it was almost reefer orange. Think Golden Gate bridge. The bridge was supposed to be finished some other color; people got so used to seeing it orange during the years it was being constructed that it was decided to just color match to the primer.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Saying goodby to Chuck Yungkurth

Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
 

Tom, thank you so much for your deeply thoughtful, respectful, and admiring comments on the life and contributions of Chuck Yungkurth. Both his and your admiring thoughts on the high contributions of those great modelers of the earlier days of our hobby ring so very, very true. As I peruse and research old modeling literature, I am constantly stunned at what was modeled, and was modeled well by modelers such as Chuck, using materials, methods, and resources that so many today (in ignorance or envy) scoff at or dismiss.

We owe these modelers a lot. R.I.P.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD


Okoboji, IA

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