Date   
Re: Early Steam Era pre-1921 operations

water.kresse@...
 

Thanks Dennis!  I assume it was more difficult to get going than starting a pot-belly stove?

One the branchline there were section houses near two of them and the third had a steam locomotive attendant on hand to keep a low fire going overnight.

Al Kresse


From: "destorzek@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 10:33:38 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early Steam Era pre-1921 operations

 

Wow, nothing like a few questions... My take on them interspersed below.



---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Did they have skilled Boilermakers to operate these relatively small boiler-motor-pumps? Did they like a steam locomotive have to keep a continuous low fire and water in the boiler.
========

Boilermakers repair boilers, not operate them. Fireing a boiler for a small pump was a semi-skilled job, the small vertical boilers were nowhere near as prone to exploding through mismanagement as a locomotive boiler, and were the responsibility of the section labors. I would assume, since this was 'easy work' compared to the rest of the things that labors did, that an 'old head' claimed the job.
========

How did they keep water from freezing in the water towers or in exposed pipes (like hanging from a bridge superstructure crossing the James River)?
========

Insulation... lagging around the pipe. Wherever the pipe was buried the ground kept it at 50 deg. F or so, and if the water was continuously moving wouldn't freeze in the short stretches where the lagged pipe was exposed. Likewise, fresh water make-up to the towers was enougn to keep them from freezing, usually. In the coldest climates, like Canada, the water tanks were enclosed in a structure, and the structure heated.
=======

How would they get coal into the pump house coal room?  The sketch shows a coal hole in the wall adjacent to the tracks. Would they just hand shovel bunker coal from a gondola car?
=======
Yup.
=======

I've talked to "electric motor" era folks (C&O and Chessie System retirees from large yard operations) and said their electric water pumps were activated by laborers as needed.
=======
Basically the same during steam days.
=======

I am amazed on how labor intensive railroad operations through WW1 were. Example: line walkers.  Branch line yard operations say to unload a box car would just hire local hourly or job day workers.  Day workers would also strip pulpwood logs and hand load them onto wagons and later trucks to then load them onto bulkhead flat cars.
=======
Why do you think these people worked for the railroad? The customer was responsible for unloading his freight, and could hire who he wanted. Likewise, pulpwood belonged to the shipper. Lots of times the guy loading the car WAS the actual shipper, who made his living cutting, pealing, and hauling pulpwood to the nearest spur where the RR would deliver a car.
=======

I assume they did the same for unloading coal into coal bins or rooms? It would be less unionized than big yard operations?
=======

That's why the railroad employed labors. I'm sure those jobs were unionized during the twentieth century. Just because the job was union didn't mean the pay was good... likely good compared to other manual labor, but not compared to train service, which required a higher level of skill and responsibility.
======

 My studied branch line still had a an "Armstrong" manually turned turntable being used in 1953 and a five man crew for a combine, and maybe at most a dozen freight cars, and a caboose.
======

So, an engineer to run the engine, a fireman to fire it, a conductor to do the paperwork, one flagman (assuming no block signals) to go back and protect the rear of the train, and one switchman to do the work. Sounds right to me.

Dennis Storzek




Creating a Suggested Dining List

Bill Welch
 

Prototype Rails at Cocoa Beach, Florida has been going on since 2001 and I know many of us have favorite places to eat. As a way to welcome new people plus give veterans of PR new ideas, I got permission from Mike to use this group to construct a list of Favorite Places to Eat. The list of descriptions will ultimately live on the Prototype Rails website in a form that can printed out easily. I have volunteered to edit the list. Here is the Drill:

—Using my two suggestions as a model write up your favorite places—three Maximum. Given that we are often under a time constraint travel distance or time should be mentioned and if there is a wait time involved.
—by about December 7 I will circulate the first DRAFT as a reminder of what is going on and so everyone can see the list so far
—Ultimate DEADLINE is December 15
—Please send them to me—fgexbill(at)tampabay.rr.com—as soon as possible w/your suggestions using the formate below.

Here are my two suggestions—Bill Welch

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The Sunrise Diner: A model of a Southern diner, they can do Poached eggs to perfection. Good service they are open for all three meals with comfort food. The deserts are Home Made although not sure if they are baked on the premises. Likely to see other RPM attendees eating there. Service is good with a minimum wait after ordering. About 5-7 minutes from The Hilton. 365 W Cocoa Beach CausewayCocoa BeachFL 32931; 321-783-5647

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g34145-d654675-Reviews-The_Sunrise_Diner-Cocoa_Beach_Brevard_County_Florida.html

Florida's Seafood Bar & Grill: Very good food—love the Fritters—and with a large variety of fish in their fish tanks, they have a unique and pleasant atmosphere. It can be crowded which speaks to the quality of food and it popularity so a wait time may be involved. Good variety of entrees with non-seafood choices. About 5-7 minutes from The Hilton. 480 West Cocoa Beach Causeway; Cocoa Beach, Florida 32931 

Florida's Seafood Bar & Grill | Cocoa Beach, Florida - Brevard County Restaurant, Space Coast


Re: Early Steam Era pre-1921 operations

Dennis Storzek
 

Wow, nothing like a few questions... My take on them interspersed below.


---In STMFC@..., <water.kresse@...> wrote :

Did they have skilled Boilermakers to operate these relatively small boiler-motor-pumps? Did they like a steam locomotive have to keep a continuous low fire and water in the boiler.
========

Boilermakers repair boilers, not operate them. Fireing a boiler for a small pump was a semi-skilled job, the small vertical boilers were nowhere near as prone to exploding through mismanagement as a locomotive boiler, and were the responsibility of the section labors. I would assume, since this was 'easy work' compared to the rest of the things that labors did, that an 'old head' claimed the job.
========

How did they keep water from freezing in the water towers or in exposed pipes (like hanging from a bridge superstructure crossing the James River)?
========

Insulation... lagging around the pipe. Wherever the pipe was buried the ground kept it at 50 deg. F or so, and if the water was continuously moving wouldn't freeze in the short stretches where the lagged pipe was exposed. Likewise, fresh water make-up to the towers was enougn to keep them from freezing, usually. In the coldest climates, like Canada, the water tanks were enclosed in a structure, and the structure heated.
=======

How would they get coal into the pump house coal room?  The sketch shows a coal hole in the wall adjacent to the tracks. Would they just hand shovel bunker coal from a gondola car?
=======
Yup.
=======

I've talked to "electric motor" era folks (C&O and Chessie System retirees from large yard operations) and said their electric water pumps were activated by laborers as needed.
=======
Basically the same during steam days.
=======

I am amazed on how labor intensive railroad operations through WW1 were. Example: line walkers.  Branch line yard operations say to unload a box car would just hire local hourly or job day workers.  Day workers would also strip pulpwood logs and hand load them onto wagons and later trucks to then load them onto bulkhead flat cars.
=======
Why do you think these people worked for the railroad? The customer was responsible for unloading his freight, and could hire who he wanted. Likewise, pulpwood belonged to the shipper. Lots of times the guy loading the car WAS the actual shipper, who made his living cutting, pealing, and hauling pulpwood to the nearest spur where the RR would deliver a car.
=======

I assume they did the same for unloading coal into coal bins or rooms? It would be less unionized than big yard operations?
=======

That's why the railroad employed labors. I'm sure those jobs were unionized during the twentieth century. Just because the job was union didn't mean the pay was good... likely good compared to other manual labor, but not compared to train service, which required a higher level of skill and responsibility.
======

 My studied branch line still had a an "Armstrong" manually turned turntable being used in 1953 and a five man crew for a combine, and maybe at most a dozen freight cars, and a caboose.
======

So, an engineer to run the engine, a fireman to fire it, a conductor to do the paperwork, one flagman (assuming no block signals) to go back and protect the rear of the train, and one switchman to do the work. Sounds right to me.

Dennis Storzek



Re: Early Steam Era pre-1921 operations

Eric Hansmann
 

You pose lots of interesting questions, Al. For a few of these, I wonder if the duties were covered by the section gangs. These crews would be responsible for keeping a certain number of track miles in proper order. Maintaining pump houses and such may have fallen to these crews as they were part of the infrastructure. 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX




On December 1, 2016 at 7:00 AM "water.kresse@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

While researching a C&O branchline operations and trying to determine what types of open top cars were used to ship iron ore, I ran across a 1920's sketch used for requesting funds for upgrading a pump house for a water tower with an electric motor replacing a coal fired boiler-steam operated motor that ran the pump to get the water up into a tank some 2 miles away.

Winter is approaching soon here in Michigan and "dumb questions" started to bother my poor mine.

Did they have skilled Boilermakers to operate these relatively small boiler-motor-pumps? Did they like a steam locomotive have to keep a continuous low fire and water in the boiler.

How did they keep water from freezing in the water towers or in exposed pipes (like hanging from a bridge superstructure crossing the James River)?

How would they get coal into the pump house coal room?  The sketch shows a coal hole in the wall adjacent to the tracks. Would they just hand shovel bunker coal from a gondola car?

I've talked to "electric motor" era folks (C&O and Chessie System retirees from large yard operations) and said their electric water pumps were activated by laborers as needed.

I am amazed on how labor intensive railroad operations through WW1 were. Example: line walkers.  Branch line yard operations say to unload a box car would just hire local hourly or job day workers.  Day workers would also strip pulpwood logs and hand load them onto wagons and later trucks to then load them onto bulkhead flat cars. I assume they did the same for unloading coal into coal bins or rooms? It would be less unionized than big yard operations?  My studied branch line still had a an "Armstrong" manually turned turntable being used in 1953 and a five man crew for a combine, and maybe at most a dozen freight cars, and a caboose.

So who took care of these small boilers.  Blow up the boiler at the end of the line and you have issues getting clean water into the tenders.  Better to run out of coal than water I would guess?

Being so freight car orientated initially, you miss the going-ons of the support operations.

So did they have skilled Boilermakers or trained laborers before the electric motor era?

Thanks youngsters . . . maybe somebody shared relevant "war stories" with you years ago.

Al Kresse

 

Re: Early Steam Era pre-1921 operations

water.kresse@...
 

While researching a C&O branchline operations and trying to determine what types of open top cars were used to ship iron ore, I ran across a 1920's sketch used for requesting funds for upgrading a pump house for a water tower with an electric motor replacing a coal fired boiler-steam operated motor that ran the pump to get the water up into a tank some 2 miles away.

Winter is approaching soon here in Michigan and "dumb questions" started to bother my poor mine.

Did they have skilled Boilermakers to operate these relatively small boiler-motor-pumps? Did they like a steam locomotive have to keep a continuous low fire and water in the boiler.

How did they keep water from freezing in the water towers or in exposed pipes (like hanging from a bridge superstructure crossing the James River)?

How would they get coal into the pump house coal room?  The sketch shows a coal hole in the wall adjacent to the tracks. Would they just hand shovel bunker coal from a gondola car?

I've talked to "electric motor" era folks (C&O and Chessie System retirees from large yard operations) and said their electric water pumps were activated by laborers as needed.

I am amazed on how labor intensive railroad operations through WW1 were. Example: line walkers.  Branch line yard operations say to unload a box car would just hire local hourly or job day workers.  Day workers would also strip pulpwood logs and hand load them onto wagons and later trucks to then load them onto bulkhead flat cars. I assume they did the same for unloading coal into coal bins or rooms? It would be less unionized than big yard operations?  My studied branch line still had a an "Armstrong" manually turned turntable being used in 1953 and a five man crew for a combine, and maybe at most a dozen freight cars, and a caboose.

So who took care of these small boilers.  Blow up the boiler at the end of the line and you have issues getting clean water into the tenders.  Better to run out of coal than water I would guess?

Being so freight car orientated initially, you miss the going-ons of the support operations.

So did they have skilled Boilermakers or trained laborers before the electric motor era?

Thanks youngsters . . . maybe somebody shared relevant "war stories" with you years ago.

Al Kresse

Re: Interesting 1915 hopper photos

al_brown03
 

Veronas are shown on p 191. The side frames have similar shapes, but you're clearly right, those in question are the arch bars.

Thanks,

AL B.

Re: BC Archives Freight Cars CN Reefer

John Riddell
 

This photo was taken to illustrate one of the numerous advantages of overhead bunker reefers.  Due to the overhead ice bunkers, the internal circulation of cool air was such that the reefers could be fully loaded without leaving any space at the doors.
 
John Riddell

Re: NYCS Lot 742-B

Tony Thompson
 

     The term "automobile car" was defined by AAR as a double-door box car. Period. Had nothing to do with whether or not it ever carried automobiles.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Interesting hopper photos

rwitt_2000
 

I believe Eric provided the location as stated in the Pitt Archives.

I didn't look closely at the images before I sent the link and missed the B&O box cars.


  -  Bob Witt

BC Archives Freight Cars CN Reefer

rwitt_2000
 

Re: NYCS Lot 742-B

Richard Townsend
 

I may have contributed to some confusion by calling it an auto car. I was guessing based on its length, but clearly I was wrong.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: riverman_vt@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Wed, Nov 30, 2016 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] NYCS Lot 742-B

 
  OK Ben, I'll bite. The car you have kindly provided a photo of, MYC #80868 looks to be a 50 ft. SINGLE door car rather than a true auto car., or am I mistaken? Does it have an end door on the "A" end? Probably not because if I read the lettering correctly it states that this is an "Auto Body Car". I presume this would be used for delivering automobile bodies only to assembly plants around the nation and not to ship completed automobiles and expect that would be the case for both lots of these cars. I'd hate to try to load new cars
through those nominally 8 ft. doors!

Cordially, Don Valentine


---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Richard Townshend asked:
"I have a photo of the part of the side of a 50' New York Central System car that I believe is an auto car with what I further believe is a lot number of 742-B (that is stenciled above the NYCS logo. It shows a built date of 11-45. Can anyone give me more information on this car, such as number series, car type, etc.
 
The car is being switched in Denver on Oct. 16, 1949. The photo is from the Denver Public Library collection, and was taken by George Trout."

 
This particular car is from NYC 177300-177799, built by ACF.  A second series of cars (NYC 80500-8099 9) was built in 1946.


Ben Hom

Re: NYCS Lot 742-B

Benjamin Hom
 

Don Valentine wrote:
"OK Ben, I'll bite. The car you have kindly provided a photo of, NYC #80868 looks to be a 50 ft. SINGLE door car rather than a true auto car, or am I mistaken?"

Correct.

"Does it have an end door on the 'A' end?"

No.

"Probably not because if I read the lettering correctly it states that this is an "Auto Body Car". I presume this would be used for delivering automobile bodies only to assembly plants around the nation and not to ship completed automobiles and expect that would be the case for both lots of these cars."

Correct.


"I'd hate to try to load new cars through those nominally 8 ft. doors!"

Not what these cars were for.  Keep in mind automobile boxcars also can mean automobile PARTS.  If you click on the link on the 742-B entry titled "SOME CARS ASSIGNED TO VARIOUS SPECIAL SERVICES AND RENUMBERED INTO VARIOUS SMALL GROUPS WITHIN NYC 76128-76210, NYC 80000-80499 AND NYC 83380-85318 ", you'll see some the assignments for Lot 742-B and other automobile pars cars.  Here's the direct link:


Ben Hom



Re: NYCS Lot 742-B

Donald B. Valentine
 

  OK Ben, I'll bite. The car you have kindly provided a photo of, MYC #80868 looks to be a 50 ft. SINGLE door car rather than a true auto car., or am I mistaken? Does it have an end door on the "A" end? Probably not because if I read the lettering correctly it states that this is an "Auto Body Car". I presume this would be used for delivering automobile bodies only to assembly plants around the nation and not to ship completed automobiles and expect that would be the case for both lots of these cars. I'd hate to try to load new cars
through those nominally 8 ft. doors!

Cordially, Don Valentine


---In STMFC@..., <b.hom@...> wrote :

Richard Townshend asked:
"I have a photo of the part of the side of a 50' New York Central System car that I believe is an auto car with what I further believe is a lot number of 742-B (that is stenciled above the NYCS logo. It shows a built date of 11-45. Can anyone give me more information on this car, such as number series, car type, etc.
 
The car is being switched in Denver on Oct. 16, 1949. The photo is from the Denver Public Library collection, and was taken by George Trout."

 
This particular car is from NYC 177300-177799, built by ACF.  A second series of cars (NYC 80500-80999) was built in 1946.


Ben Hom

Re: Interesting 1915 hopper photos

Eric Hansmann
 

Al,

 

The P&LE hopper is riding on Pressed Steel Car Company pressed-steel arch bar trucks. See examples on pages 218 and 219 of Karig’s “Coal Cars” book. These were similar to Vogt trucks, which can be seen on page 175 of the same book.

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 4:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Interesting 1915 hopper photos

 




Verona trucks?

 

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Interesting 1915 hopper photos

al_brown03
 

Verona trucks?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Re: End type on B&O class M-57

Tim O'Connor
 


Judging from the lettering style, it's a Canadian Pacific 40 foot double door.



I found the BC Archives photo, but it doesn't look like a B&O box car.

http://search-bcarchives.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/unloading-vancouver-island-coach-lines-brill-bus-from-freight-car-victoria

Bob Witt

Re: Interesting hopper photos

Eric Hansmann
 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 12:16 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Interesting hopper photos

 



There is this string of house cars. Haven't tried any searches.

http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/getimage-idx?cc=hpicasc;entryid=x-8223.1843.rr;viewid=20120623-HPICASC-0084.TIF;quality=m800;view=image

 



Bob Witt

Re: NYCS Lot 742-B

Benjamin Hom
 

Richard Townshend asked:
"I have a photo of the part of the side of a 50' New York Central System car that I believe is an auto car with what I further believe is a lot number of 742-B (that is stenciled above the NYCS logo. It shows a built date of 11-45. Can anyone give me more information on this car, such as number series, car type, etc.
 
The car is being switched in Denver on Oct. 16, 1949. The photo is from the Denver Public Library collection, and was taken by George Trout."

 
This particular car is from NYC 177300-177799, built by ACF.  A second series of cars (NYC 80500-80999) was built in 1946.


Ben Hom

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Interesting hopper photos

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Bob;

Do you know exactly where this is?

Elden Gatwood

Re: End type on B&O class M-57

rwitt_2000