Date   

Re: MISSOURI PACIFIC SNOWPLOW QUESTIONS

Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hi Ron,

What you say about the model is an understatement. The bolsters are very toy-like. There is not under-frame modeled. The floor of the model looks more like a later cast tender frame than what an early built-up separate frame and tank would look like. Good thing that the part of the model that is viewed will be filled with rip-rap. 

My plan is to fill-in the open bolster area and add a bit of the center frame. 

As for the color of the plow, I am not sure. I have been gifted three images of various snowplows in black paint — image dates being in the mid-1960s — that are entirely black. I like the idea of the aluminum painted plow. The MP was a spiffy railroad and I can see the plow perhaps being painted with aluminum paint. 

The trucks on the model are brass with their bolster stamped “Japan”. The side frames are cast with leaf springs being part of the casting. The front truck has very little ability to turn and I can fully understand the need to shave off a good portion of the journal box to get this little critter to track around any degree of significant curve. Interestingly, the photos that I have all show trucks with coil springs. I will most likely swap out the brass ones for another truck and save the these for another project. 

Once again, Thank You for sharing this wonderful information. 

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA



On Jan 29, 2017, at 9:45 AM, ron.merrick@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Bill:

You did understand what I was trying to convey, even though I knew at the time that it was awkward sentence structure.  MP followed a practice that a lot of railroads did at the time, that open-top stuff and locomotives were black and roofed equipment was red.  So in the early fifties as you're concerned with, the plows would naturally have been black.  Surely there's a photo out there showing one, but much less likely that a painting drawing still exists.  No doubt, though, that those photos are probably B&W.  So I agree the question of the plow surface is still open, but I'm willing to bet that it was aluminum.  Charlie was a lot more in contact with the MoPac than I in that era, since I was just a bystander. and he's a second generation MoPac.

MoPac did use a lot of aluminum paint in that era for certain things, for instance black and aluminum candy-cane striping on grade crossing signs, and locomotive lettering had been aluminum leaf. 

The orange color used in the sixties was probably ART orange, which some shops might have had on hand.  It's clearly different from the yellow that was used in the sixties on the ends of occupied house cars.

Occupied house cars (ex-boxcars and ex-passenger cars) and maybe some other stuff, were either boxcar red (mostly) or light gray.  In the early fifties I think they were all one color, in other words they didn't have yellow ends or anything.  Anything that was mostly steel, like cranes and flatcars and so forth, was black.

Model notes:  that Hallmark model isn't put together very well, so when I rebuilt it in the 90s I may have put a cut-up Athearn frame under it, or parts of one.  I'm pretty sure the trucks under it are Lindberg because those were the lightest ones that existed at the time.  The prototypes probably mostly had 40-ton trucks, or whatever was available at the time.  I carved most of the journal box off the front truck's front axle for clearance.  I'm sure it still has a Kadee 5 on the back end.

Ron Merrick



Re: White Swan billboard reefers

Bernhard Schroeter
 

Johannes, thank you very much!

However I'm sure that there will be some other modelers which work also with this love in detailing and skill and you will find many scratchbuilt models with this quality or better yet!
You know also that I love to build another serie of old time models and I hope to find enough sources and dimension datas for realizing. Let surprise you!

Thanks again
Bernhard


Re: Black Southern Pacific 3-Bay Covered Hoppers?

Spen Kellogg <spninetynine@...>
 

On 1/29/2017 2:03 PM, Brian Termunde GCRDS@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

I have a friend who is doing a mid to late 1950's Espee three bay covered hopper for someone else. It was already partially finished in black, and he's hoping not to have to strip and repaint it.


The person he's doing the car for is not a serious modelers such as the members of this group, so the model is intended only to be representative of an SP car, not an exact model, however, my friend doesn't want to letter it SP if they didn't have any black cars.

I did think about asking about this on the SP group, but realized that I probably would only to be told to buy a certain $70 book, which is a very valuable reference and would be a great, and much welcomed addition to my library, is a regardless, bit expensive to answer one simple question!

Okay, actually two questions, what would, if an appropriate similar car existed, would be a reasonable number series to use for it.


Brian,

Have your friend look at this web site:

http://www.railgoat.railfan.net/spcars/index.htm

Covered hoppers were gray with red or black lettering. Subsequent to 1956 yellow lettering also appeared. I don't think they ever were painted black.

Spen Kellogg


Re: Tangent at Amherst Show this weekend

Larry Smith
 

Tangent at all shows has said they won't talk about anything that is in their pipeline.  If you go to Trainfest on Youtube you will find that this is their company policy.

Larry Smith


On Sunday, January 29, 2017 2:40 PM, "fgexbill@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
I was hoping we might at least see more cars w/AB brakes and names like Tarvia and Sinclair.

Bill Welch



Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widths?

spsalso
 

From "Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 5" (1940 Car Builders' Cyclopedia):

"Flooring 2 3/4" x 4 15/16" Ship Lap     1/2" Carriage Bolts"
The car was 70 ton 50'-6" Pere Marquette.  Likely car number was 18400



There's an interesting ATSF composite gon with a two-layer floor.  The lower layer is transverse shiplap 2 1/4" thick by approx 7 1/8".  The upper layer is longitudinal 1 1/4" thick by approx 6 1/8" planking.  The car was for sulfur service.  There's a photo of a T&NO car (43015) that is suspiciously similar to the drawing.



Lastly, there's a Milwaukee composite gon with drop doors.  Likely car number 80309.  Flooring was 2 1/4" x 5 1/8" transverse tongue and groove.

And many steel floored gons.


Ed

Edward Sutorik


Black Southern Pacific 3-Bay Covered Hoppers?

Brian Termunde
 

I have a friend who is doing a mid to late 1950's Espee three bay covered hopper for someone else. It was already partially finished in black, and he's hoping not to have to strip and repaint it.

The person he's doing the car for is not a serious modelers such as the members of this group, so the model is intended only to be representative of an SP car, not an exact model, however, my friend doesn't want to letter it SP if they didn't have any black cars.

I did think about asking about this on the SP group, but realized that I probably would only to be told to buy a certain $70 book, which is a very valuable reference and would be a great, and much welcomed addition to my library, is a regardless, bit expensive to answer one simple question!

Okay, actually two questions, what would, if an appropriate similar car existed, would be a reasonable number series to use for it.

Now I do realize that this is blasphemy to this group, but hopefully eventually this stand in will encourage its owner to learn more about the prototype and such critters can be hidden away as they should be...

Any and all assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much!

Take Care,
 
Brian R. Termunde
Midvale, Utah

P.S. No, it's NOT for me!


Re: Tangent at Amherst Show this weekend

Bill Welch
 

I was hoping we might at least see more cars w/AB brakes and names like Tarvia and Sinclair.

Bill Welch


Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widths?

Doug Pillow
 

4 15/16th may have been the exposure. Say 51/2"nominal board width with lap.

                                                                                              Doug Pillow


Re: Fw: A little history for the FRN's and kids

Charles Peck
 

Could someone clarify the term "FRN's" please?
Chuck Peck in FL

On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 10:54 AM, cepropst@q.com [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

 
A friend sent me this, so I thought I’d pass it on...
 
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa



Re: Fw: A little history for the FRN's and kids

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Clark,

Interesting video. Thanks much. It seems to have been pieced together over several years, as the D&H didn't receive Challengers until 1940. I noted what looks like a Santa Fe boxcar with a map at 1:20. In the pan of boxcars beginning about :20, the first appears to be a W&LE, followed by Reading and NYC. There is an early covered hopper in the wreck scenes at 11:11, but I'm not sure whose.

Today there's almost nothing left at Oneonta, railroad-wise anyway (it is a nice little town). During the CP years the yard and what was left of the car shops were cleared. There is/was a large grain elevator in that area which had some early steel boxcars in captive service. The passenger depot is intact, but now an Italian restaurant. What I think was the freight house is adjacent. The famous bobber caboose D&HCC/A&S10 was moved from the city park along the river to Weawha Park just north of the downtown area and is housed in its own little building. It was in this caboose that the first meeting of the Brotherhood of American Railroad Union members was held in the 1800s.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 1/29/17 10:54 AM, cepropst@q.com [STMFC] wrote:
 

 
A friend sent me this, so I thought I’d pass it on...
 
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: MISSOURI PACIFIC SNOWPLOW QUESTIONS

mopacfirst
 

Bill:

You did understand what I was trying to convey, even though I knew at the time that it was awkward sentence structure.  MP followed a practice that a lot of railroads did at the time, that open-top stuff and locomotives were black and roofed equipment was red.  So in the early fifties as you're concerned with, the plows would naturally have been black.  Surely there's a photo out there showing one, but much less likely that a painting drawing still exists.  No doubt, though, that those photos are probably B&W.  So I agree the question of the plow surface is still open, but I'm willing to bet that it was aluminum.  Charlie was a lot more in contact with the MoPac than I in that era, since I was just a bystander. and he's a second generation MoPac.

MoPac did use a lot of aluminum paint in that era for certain things, for instance black and aluminum candy-cane striping on grade crossing signs, and locomotive lettering had been aluminum leaf.

The orange color used in the sixties was probably ART orange, which some shops might have had on hand.  It's clearly different from the yellow that was used in the sixties on the ends of occupied house cars.

Occupied house cars (ex-boxcars and ex-passenger cars) and maybe some other stuff, were either boxcar red (mostly) or light gray.  In the early fifties I think they were all one color, in other words they didn't have yellow ends or anything.  Anything that was mostly steel, like cranes and flatcars and so forth, was black.

Model notes:  that Hallmark model isn't put together very well, so when I rebuilt it in the 90s I may have put a cut-up Athearn frame under it, or parts of one.  I'm pretty sure the trucks under it are Lindberg because those were the lightest ones that existed at the time.  The prototypes probably mostly had 40-ton trucks, or whatever was available at the time.  I carved most of the journal box off the front truck's front axle for clearance.  I'm sure it still has a Kadee 5 on the back end.

Ron Merrick


Fw: A little history for the FRN's and kids

Clark Propst
 

 
A friend sent me this, so I thought I’d pass it on...
 
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Tangent at Amherst Show this weekend

Mark.Rossiter@...
 

Bill, if you are talking about the General American 1917-design 8000 Gallon Non-Insulated Tank Car, yes they had some at the show.  For sure they had some of the Deep Rock and UTLX cars.  I don't know how many or what others because the table was quite active at the time.  I asked one of the principles there if there was anything n the pipeline he could talk about.  He said "That's not the way we do business, but I can tell you it's going to be a very busy year."  Make of that what you will.


I also stopped by the Spring Mills Depot table and they were doing a very brisk business with the B&O covered hoppers.  No 'show discounts', but I saved on shipping costs.   


Mark Rossiter   


Re: test

Mansell Peter Hambly
 

I got it Rob
'ham'



From: "Robert kirkham rdkirkham@... [STMFC]"
To: "STMFC@..."
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 6:47:07 PM
Subject: [STMFC] test

 

Sorry, I seem to be receiving no e-mail from yahoo today and cannot seem to access it online either.

Rob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Looking for Bx-36

rob.mclear3@...
 

Does anyone have out there an old Santa Fe Bx-36 kit from Sunshine models that they would be willing to sell.   


Thanks

Rob McLear

Australia.



test

Robert kirkham
 

Sorry, I seem to be receiving no e-mail from yahoo today and cannot seem to access it online either.

Rob


Re: White Swan billboard reefers

vapeurchapelon
 

Yes, definitely! Congratulations, Bernd, for completing this incredible project! As you know I have seen the cars in person, and I can only repeat that I don't know any other modeller achieving your standards in H0scale model building! No more words needed.
 
Many greetings
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Freitag, 27. Januar 2017 um 18:24 Uhr
Von: "'Claus Schlund HGM' claus@... [STMFC]"
An: STMFC@...
Betreff: Re: [STMFC] Re: White Swan billboard reefers
 



Hi Bernd,
 
Beautiful work!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 1:12 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: White Swan billboard reefers
 
Ready!
All my five White Swan reefers are ready and now they will receive a little bit aging and dust yet. This will be done by a friend who has realized already the painting and decaling.

http://us-modelsof1900.de/wp-content/gallery/whiteswan-reefer/whiteswan_88kk.jpg
 

 


Looking for two items related to Pulling Freight Cars

Bill Welch
 

I know, I know. . .but I am willing to go to jail. Anyone have one or both of the following they will part with associated with pulling freight cars?


1.) L-L Proto 2000 FA2 Shell only with glazing, any road name


2.) Mellor Steam Locomotive Detailing Kits—Cab Wraps; Front Detailers; Rear Detailers; Frame Detailers; etc (these kits are circa mid-1980's and after consisting of photo etched parts and other bits) or Repower Kits


Turning myself in now and . . .


Please reply offline directly to me only if you can help at: fgexbill(at)tampabay.rr.com


Thank you for your attention

Bill Welch


Re: Standard Oil Lettering On UTLX Tank Cars

Norm Buckhart
 

My information came from reading Albert Carr’s “John D. Rockefeller’s Secret Weapon” published by McGraw-Hill (1962)  This book is available today at Amazon books and is the most informative narrative on both the UTLX and Standard Oil I have ever seen. Anyone interested in this subject would find this book comprehensive, informative and fascinating.  Rockefeller literally built Standard Oil by controlling crude oil shipments to refineries in tank cars and controlling the construction of tank cars themselves within the entire tank car construction industry. After reading this book and understanding what I was seeing in this one of a kind photo I couldn’t help but create a decal set for it.

norm buckhart, protocraft decals

On Jan 28, 2017, at 1:20 PM, Dave Parker spottab@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Bob:

I'll answer your question first:  that is the only UTLX car that I have seen with "Standard Oil Company" lettering.

As to the rest of the Protocraft narrative -- hmmm.  It seems to imply that the majority of crude oil found its way to the refineries in tank cars.  Even in the 1920s there was a fairly extensive pipe-line network in several regions, and a great deal of crude traveled by boat.  I would say that transport by rail was the exception, not the rule.

Second, the 31000 series of X-3s was ordered in 1917 (so Steve Hile tells me).  Maybe it was not built until March of 1919, but that seems late to me.  Regardless, the break-up of Standard Oil occurred in 1911, so the trust-busting was long since done when this car was built.  Thus the "Standard Oil" on the side refers to one of the "baby" standards, not the original parent company.  I'd guess Indiana, because they marketed in a very large area as "Standard" (as opposed to SOCONY, Esso, etc.), but that's a guess.

Last, Steve and I kicked this white versus yellow lettering question around a few months back, without resolution.  The evidence strikes me as apocryphal at best, no matter which way one argues it.  And I would not assume that the paint job shown in that photo is original (i.e., as built).  The metal-framed holders for the safety placards came later.  Tony Thompson says about 1933 on his blog, which seems reasonable.  I do have one UTLX builder's photo from 1927 that shows them, but nothing earlier.  I can't read the pressure-test dates on this car, but my best guess is that it's a late 1920s or early 1930s photo.

With best regards,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA





  


On Saturday, January 28, 2017 10:42 AM, "thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


 
I found this partial tank car photo on the Protocraft website:
 
 
The website stated "Union Tank Car virtually held a monopoly of the transportation of crude oil to the refinery, a fact held negatively by the public in general and the Congress at large. Because all the UTLX stock was privately held by all the members of Standard’s board of directors, there was no direct connection with UTLX and Standard Oil, effectively frustrating any antitrust undertaking. A highly unusual example of Standard Oil Company painted on a tank car is seen in this photograph. Although no documentation is known, it is generally thought that UTLX lettering was changed from white to yellow in the early to mid-1920’s. This car, built in 1919, was painted all black with all white lettering. By the 1930’s, this car would be repainted with yellow lettering and the Standard Oil Company name painted out."
 
Is there any more background to the statement, "A highly unusual example of Standard Oil Company painted on a tank car is seen in this photograph."? Was such Standard Oil lettering all that rare?
 
Thanks.
 
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA





Re: Standard Oil Lettering On UTLX Tank Cars

Dave Parker
 

Bob:

I'll answer your question first:  that is the only UTLX car that I have seen with "Standard Oil Company" lettering.

As to the rest of the Protocraft narrative -- hmmm.  It seems to imply that the majority of crude oil found its way to the refineries in tank cars.  Even in the 1920s there was a fairly extensive pipe-line network in several regions, and a great deal of crude traveled by boat.  I would say that transport by rail was the exception, not the rule.

Second, the 31000 series of X-3s was ordered in 1917 (so Steve Hile tells me).  Maybe it was not built until March of 1919, but that seems late to me.  Regardless, the break-up of Standard Oil occurred in 1911, so the trust-busting was long since done when this car was built.  Thus the "Standard Oil" on the side refers to one of the "baby" standards, not the original parent company.  I'd guess Indiana, because they marketed in a very large area as "Standard" (as opposed to SOCONY, Esso, etc.), but that's a guess.

Last, Steve and I kicked this white versus yellow lettering question around a few months back, without resolution.  The evidence strikes me as apocryphal at best, no matter which way one argues it.  And I would not assume that the paint job shown in that photo is original (i.e., as built).  The metal-framed holders for the safety placards came later.  Tony Thompson says about 1933 on his blog, which seems reasonable.  I do have one UTLX builder's photo from 1927 that shows them, but nothing earlier.  I can't read the pressure-test dates on this car, but my best guess is that it's a late 1920s or early 1930s photo.

With best regards,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA





 


On Saturday, January 28, 2017 10:42 AM, "thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
I found this partial tank car photo on the Protocraft website:
 
 
The website stated "Union Tank Car virtually held a monopoly of the transportation of crude oil to the refinery, a fact held negatively by the public in general and the Congress at large. Because all the UTLX stock was privately held by all the members of Standard’s board of directors, there was no direct connection with UTLX and Standard Oil, effectively frustrating any antitrust undertaking. A highly unusual example of Standard Oil Company painted on a tank car is seen in this photograph. Although no documentation is known, it is generally thought that UTLX lettering was changed from white to yellow in the early to mid-1920’s. This car, built in 1919, was painted all black with all white lettering. By the 1930’s, this car would be repainted with yellow lettering and the Standard Oil Company name painted out."
 
Is there any more background to the statement, "A highly unusual example of Standard Oil Company painted on a tank car is seen in this photograph."? Was such Standard Oil lettering all that rare?
 
Thanks.
 
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA