Date   

Re: Real Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widths

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi Schuyler,

So do do tell - “How did you do that”.

Care to pass along any specifics for the rest of us to try out? Inquiring minds want to know.

Claus Schlund

----- Original Message -----
From: "'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Real Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widths


I agree with Andy, though I also have used wood to model wood, for running boards especially. However, I used scribed styrene to model the wood floor in my DT&I Shake’n’Take model several years ago, using acrylic paints to do so. No scratching at all, no sandpaper to start, just right on the shiny white plastic – and I have received many compliments and inquiries about “How did you do that” ever since.



Schuyler



Hi-

At risk of being a contrarian: but any thoughts of using Evergreen Styrene strips? 0.060" is only 0.003" off from 5 inches. Tichy Trains has instructions for good weathering for plastic flat car decks in their instructions. Decades ago, Narrow gauge & Shortline Gazette featured an article where the best technique (in my opinion) for simulating miniature weathered wood was with layered paint on styrene; with scratching down to lower layers with a fiberglass erasure pen. I think real wood always looks like model wood--it lacks realism and I don't think that it scales down well. I have heard forever that "you can't beat real wood" for weathering. I disagree.



-Andy Carlson

Ojai CA



_____

From: "destorzek@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widt hs?









---In STMFC@..., <fgexbill@...> wrote :

Actually what I am thinking is to glue down two parallel pieces of of .100 x .100 styrene using a piece of 6-inch wood to keep these parallel. Then I would initially push then pull the wood past a razor blade secured to remove one scale inch of wood. Still trying to sort out how to secure the blade. I may build a structure from styrene to hold the blade and glue the structure into place but still allow me to change blades.



I am sure an idea will come to me in the shower.



Bill Welch
==============
Bill, I think sanding is better. When trying to slice real wood with a blade, the blade will tend to follow the grain. It will either dig too deeply until it eithet stalls the pushing action or cuts the strip in two diagonally, or, if the grain is running the other way, force the blade out of the wood. These are all the problems one sees when planing wood with a hand plane, but the cast iron sole of the plane prevents it. Anything you can build out of styrene will have nowhere near the rigidity of a plane,

Brings to mind a point... did you measure the stripwood? A lot of suppliers don't bother to cut "six inch" scale stripwood to an actual .069", figuring .0625" is close enough.

Dennis Storzek











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Posted by: "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...>
------------------------------------


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Yahoo Groups Links


Re: Scalecoat I and Scalecoat II

Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)
 


Hi Schuyler and List Members,
 
Thanks from me as well Schuyler. I always kinda figured if you applied the paint properly, and waited for it to fully cure, that you could pretty much mix and match the sequence of paint coats with whatever brand you felt like using. Inside knowlege like this will help prevent a paint disaster from happening.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 12:42 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Scalecoat I and Scalecoat II

Thanks, Schuyler.  This is valuable information for a lot of us. 

I certainly hope your second attempt at painting these diesels is more successful than the first.

PS - I happen to use both acrylics and solvent-based paints, so I guess I'm a straddler.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widt hs?

Mitchell Mercante
 

Bill,
Perhaps this tool from Micro-Mark may be of some interest to you.
Mitch Mercante

On Monday, January 30, 2017 3:09 PM, "fgexbill@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


#yiv8518887987 #yiv8518887987 -- #yiv8518887987 .yiv8518887987ygrp-photo-title{clear:both;font-size:smaller;height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;}#yiv8518887987 div.yiv8518887987ygrp-photo{background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px solid black;height:62px;width:62px;}#yiv8518887987 div.yiv8518887987photo-title a, #yiv8518887987 div.yiv8518887987photo-title a:active, #yiv8518887987 div.yiv8518887987photo-title a:hover, #yiv8518887987 div.yiv8518887987photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv8518887987 div.yiv8518887987attach-table div.yiv8518887987attach-row {clear:both;}#yiv8518887987 div.yiv8518887987attach-table div.yiv8518887987attach-row div {float:left;}#yiv8518887987 p {clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;}#yiv8518887987 div.yiv8518887987ygrp-file {width:30px;}#yiv8518887987 div.yiv8518887987attach-table div.yiv8518887987attach-row div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv8518887987 div.yiv8518887987attach-table div.yiv8518887987attach-row div div span {font-weight:normal;}#yiv8518887987 div.yiv8518887987ygrp-file-title {font-weight:bold;}#yiv8518887987 #yiv8518887987 #yiv8518887987 #yiv8518887987 --#yiv8518887987ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv8518887987 #yiv8518887987ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv8518887987 #yiv8518887987ygrp-mkp #yiv8518887987hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv8518887987 #yiv8518887987ygrp-mkp #yiv8518887987ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv8518887987 #yiv8518887987ygrp-mkp .yiv8518887987ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv8518887987 #yiv8518887987ygrp-mkp .yiv8518887987ad p {margin:0;}#yiv8518887987 #yiv8518887987ygrp-mkp .yiv8518887987ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8518887987

I have not measured it but thank you for the reminder to do so Dennis as it may be undersized just enough. In all honesty I am leaning away from sanding because I am so bad at it.
Regarding stabilizing the blade, I know it is hard to picture w/o a picture but I am thinking that I would actually sort of sink the edge of the blade into the base I will create so it cannot move. Whatever I do I promise Rube Goldberg would be proud.
Bill Welch


Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board width?

Bill Welch
 

Amen Tom, Amen

Bill Welch


Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board width?

Tom Madden
 

---In STMFC@..., <fgexbill@...> wrote :
>
> I think that most people who know will say I follow the path
> of most resistance, or in other words, why do something the
> easy way when there is a hard way, or . . .

..."Why build one when you can have two at twice the price?"
John Hurt in "Contact"

Tom Madden


Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board width?

Charles Peck
 

Bill, you really need those 6" boards. Not to cut down to 5", but by the time you get a proper ship lap on them,
the exposed surface will be close to 5".  I'm sure you will find a way to do ship lap, after all, just laying boards
side by side would almost be cheating, right?
Chuck Peck in FL

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 5:19 PM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

I think that most people who know will say I follow the path of most resistance, or in other words, why do something the easy way when there is a hard way, or . . .


. . .well you get point.

Bill Welch



Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board width?

Bill Welch
 

I think that most people who know will say I follow the path of most resistance, or in other words, why do something the easy way when there is a hard way, or . . .

. . .well you get point.

Bill Welch


Re: Scalecoat I and Scalecoat II

Fred Jansz
 

Same with weathering, never weather with (thinned) solvent based paints over acrylic coat. But hey, did you ever try to remove that stone hard dried acrylic paint from your brush with thinner? Almost impossible. The reason why the solvent paint dissolves airbrushed acrylic paint must be in the thickness of the paint. It's so thin the pigment dissolves when you add solvent based paint.
Anyone with experience of airbrushing TruColor (solvent paint) over brass and other metals? Even with their gray TC primer as an undercoat I still manage to chip the paint off. Very frustrating. But I like the smoothness of TC which makes details  come alive.
Fred Jansz


Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board width?

Schuyler Larrabee
 

When I did the Rock Island Shake’n’Take car last year (meaning during 2015 to show at the 2016 Cocoa Beach bash) I became obsessed about the running boards (or roof walk if you prefer). I made several using real wood, which was labeled as 1x6. The prototype drawings (which we had to work from) showed a 1” gap between them and 5¾” boards. 3 x 5.75 = 17.25 + 2 = 19.25” overall width. What I made, using a spacer of 0.1.” styrene, came out to 21” plus. I asked myself what was going on, when I realized that there is a difference between what it said on the package, 1 x 6, and 1 x 5.75. I measured the wood in the package, and it turned out to be a full 6” wide, scale. So it was too wide, yes, .003” on each board.



In (obsessive) pursuit of getting this right, I decided to shave off just that amount from each board, and I constructed a jig just as Bill has described. Mine is on an .030 thick x 1.25” x 6”long base. On top of that are two pieces of .060 thick styrene, 1/1” x 6”, spaced about .014” apart (used a piece of the wood as a spacer). I then used a sharpened chisel blade held manually down on the top of this jig to shave off the offending ¼”. Successfully, I might add. The sharp leading edge of the blade ends up about .001” above the top of the .060” gauge.



As Dennis has predicted, the grain of the wood caused troubles. One piece neatly became two long triangles. At that point, I realized I needed to make the wood stay down into the slot. IIRC (this IS 16-18 months ago . . .) I simply held a finger-sized piece of styrene down on the wood as I slid the chisel blade along the top of the jig, holding the wood down into the slot. Not only did I get my 5¾‘ boards, I also got some scale excelsior! J



[Yes I know, excelsior is much smaller than that.]



Bill, it can be done, I’ve done some extreme modeling before.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 4:09 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widt hs?





I have not measured it but thank you for the reminder to do so Dennis as it may be undersized just enough. In all honesty I am leaning away from sanding because I am so bad at it.



Regarding stabilizing the blade, I know it is hard to picture w/o a picture but I am thinking that I would actually sort of sink the edge of the blade into the base I will create so it cannot move. Whatever I do I promise Rube Goldberg would be proud.



Bill Welch


Re: Scalecoat I and Scalecoat II

 

In my experience with the old formulas, SC 1 over SC 2 would almost instantly orange peel the SC 2.





Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni



From: STMFC List <STMFC@...> on behalf of STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Monday, January 30, 2017 at 3:18 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Scalecoat I and Scalecoat II





Part of the problem is that SC I is a lacquer based paint and SC II is an enamel base paint. While both use organic thinners and vehicles, they are quite different.

One can enamel over a lacquer, since the enamel base does not strongly effect a cured lacquered surface.



However to apply lacquer base paint over an enameled surface, especially one that has not cured for an extended period of time, it can soften and possibly dissolve the bond of the enamel paint under it.



Floquil at one time as also a lacquer based paint, not very good on plastics. But as time passed on, the formula was changed to a more plastic-friendly enamel type base.



Ed Bommer









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Excel K17 Knife

midrly
 

Once you use a scalpel a few times for model building, you may never go back to an X-Acto or any other hobby knife.

Steve Lucas


Re: Scalecoat I and Scalecoat II

Edward
 

Part of the problem is that SC  I is a lacquer based paint and SC II is an enamel base paint. While both use organic  thinners and vehicles, they are quite different.
One can enamel over a lacquer, since the enamel base does not strongly effect a cured lacquered surface.

However to apply lacquer base paint over an enameled surface, especially one that has not cured for an extended period of time, it can soften and possibly dissolve the bond of the enamel paint under it.

Floquil at one time as also a lacquer based paint, not very good on plastics. But as time passed on, the formula was changed to a more plastic-friendly enamel type base.

Ed  Bommer



Re: Real Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widths

Bill Welch
 

Andy, I have thought about using styrene and have dismissed it.

Bill Welch


Re: Real Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widths

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I agree with Andy, though I also have used wood to model wood, for running boards especially. However, I used scribed styrene to model the wood floor in my DT&I Shake’n’Take model several years ago, using acrylic paints to do so. No scratching at all, no sandpaper to start, just right on the shiny white plastic – and I have received many compliments and inquiries about “How did you do that” ever since.



Schuyler



Hi-

At risk of being a contrarian: but any thoughts of using Evergreen Styrene strips? 0.060" is only 0.003" off from 5 inches. Tichy Trains has instructions for good weathering for plastic flat car decks in their instructions. Decades ago, Narrow gauge & Shortline Gazette featured an article where the best technique (in my opinion) for simulating miniature weathered wood was with layered paint on styrene; with scratching down to lower layers with a fiberglass erasure pen. I think real wood always looks like model wood--it lacks realism and I don't think that it scales down well. I have heard forever that "you can't beat real wood" for weathering. I disagree.



-Andy Carlson

Ojai CA



_____

From: "destorzek@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widt hs?









---In STMFC@..., <fgexbill@...> wrote :

Actually what I am thinking is to glue down two parallel pieces of of .100 x .100 styrene using a piece of 6-inch wood to keep these parallel. Then I would initially push then pull the wood past a razor blade secured to remove one scale inch of wood. Still trying to sort out how to secure the blade. I may build a structure from styrene to hold the blade and glue the structure into place but still allow me to change blades.



I am sure an idea will come to me in the shower.



Bill Welch
==============
Bill, I think sanding is better. When trying to slice real wood with a blade, the blade will tend to follow the grain. It will either dig too deeply until it eithet stalls the pushing action or cuts the strip in two diagonally, or, if the grain is running the other way, force the blade out of the wood. These are all the problems one sees when planing wood with a hand plane, but the cast iron sole of the plane prevents it. Anything you can build out of styrene will have nowhere near the rigidity of a plane,

Brings to mind a point... did you measure the stripwood? A lot of suppliers don't bother to cut "six inch" scale stripwood to an actual .069", figuring .0625" is close enough.

Dennis Storzek







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widt hs?

Bill Welch
 

I have not measured it but thank you for the reminder to do so Dennis as it may be undersized just enough. In all honesty I am leaning away from sanding because I am so bad at it.

Regarding stabilizing the blade, I know it is hard to picture w/o a picture but I am thinking that I would actually sort of sink the edge of the blade into the base I will create so it cannot move. Whatever I do I promise Rube Goldberg would be proud.

Bill Welch


Re: Scalecoat I and Scalecoat II

Todd Sullivan
 

Thanks, Schuyler.  This is valuable information for a lot of us. 

I certainly hope your second attempt at painting these diesels is more successful than the first.

PS - I happen to use both acrylics and solvent-based paints, so I guess I'm a straddler.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Real Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widths

Richard Townsend
 

If you are a contrarian then so am I. .003 is just over a quarter of an inch in HO. And I agree on the styrene vs. wood.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Carlson midcentury@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Jan 30, 2017 11:56 am
Subject: [STMFC] Real Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widths

 
Hi-
At risk of being a contrarian: but any thoughts of using Evergreen Styrene strips? 0.060" is only 0.003" off from 5 inches. Tichy Trains has instructions for good weathering for plastic flat car decks in their instructions. Decades ago, Narrow gauge & Shortline Gazette featured an article where the best technique (in my opinion) for simulating miniature weathered wood was with layered paint on styrene; with scratching down to lower layers with a fiberglass erasure pen. I think real wood always looks like model wood--it lacks realism and I don't think that it scales down well. I have heard forever that "you can't beat real wood" for weathering. I disagree.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA



From: "destorzek@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widt hs?

 



---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Actually what I am thinking is to glue down two parallel pieces of of .100 x .100 styrene using a piece of 6-inch wood to keep these parallel. Then I would initially push then pull the wood past a razor blade secured to remove one scale inch of wood. Still trying to sort out how to secure the blade. I may build a structure from styrene to hold the blade and glue the structure into place but still allow me to change blades.

I am sure an idea will come to me in the shower.

Bill Welch
==============
Bill, I think sanding is better. When trying to slice real wood with a blade, the blade will tend to follow the grain. It will either dig too deeply until it eithet stalls the pushing action or cuts the strip in two diagonally, or, if the grain is running the other way, force the blade out of the wood. These are all the problems one sees when planing wood with a hand plane, but the cast iron sole of the plane prevents it. Anything you can build out of styrene will have nowhere near the rigidity of a plane,

Brings to mind a point... did you measure the stripwood? A lot of suppliers don't bother to cut "six inch" scale stripwood to an actual .069", figuring .0625" is close enough.

Dennis Storzek



Real Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widths

Andy Carlson
 

Hi-
At risk of being a contrarian: but any thoughts of using Evergreen Styrene strips? 0.060" is only 0.003" off from 5 inches. Tichy Trains has instructions for good weathering for plastic flat car decks in their instructions. Decades ago, Narrow gauge & Shortline Gazette featured an article where the best technique (in my opinion) for simulating miniature weathered wood was with layered paint on styrene; with scratching down to lower layers with a fiberglass erasure pen. I think real wood always looks like model wood--it lacks realism and I don't think that it scales down well. I have heard forever that "you can't beat real wood" for weathering. I disagree.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA



From: "destorzek@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widt hs?

 



---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Actually what I am thinking is to glue down two parallel pieces of of .100 x .100 styrene using a piece of 6-inch wood to keep these parallel. Then I would initially push then pull the wood past a razor blade secured to remove one scale inch of wood. Still trying to sort out how to secure the blade. I may build a structure from styrene to hold the blade and glue the structure into place but still allow me to change blades.

I am sure an idea will come to me in the shower.

Bill Welch
==============
Bill, I think sanding is better. When trying to slice real wood with a blade, the blade will tend to follow the grain. It will either dig too deeply until it eithet stalls the pushing action or cuts the strip in two diagonally, or, if the grain is running the other way, force the blade out of the wood. These are all the problems one sees when planing wood with a hand plane, but the cast iron sole of the plane prevents it. Anything you can build out of styrene will have nowhere near the rigidity of a plane,

Brings to mind a point... did you measure the stripwood? A lot of suppliers don't bother to cut "six inch" scale stripwood to an actual .069", figuring .0625" is close enough.

Dennis Storzek



Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widt hs?

SUVCWORR@...
 

Bill,

There is a cutter made for foam core board which you may be able to adapt for use with strip wood.

http://www.usi-laminate.com/store/wpbec_viewItem.asp?idProduct=3937&tid=hmETmMyL_dc&cid=z9vrhgdn80&pcrid=9461489106&pkw=&pmt=be&WT.srch=1&WT.mc_id=bing_Shopping%20IDs

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Jan 30, 2017 12:32 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wood Floors in Gondolas—Board widt hs?



Actually what I am thinking is to glue down two parallel pieces of of .100 x .100 styrene using a piece of 6-inch wood to keep these parallel. Then I would initially push then pull the wood past a razor blade secured to remove one scale inch of wood. Still trying to sort out how to secure the blade. I may build a structure from styrene to hold the blade and glue the structure into place but still allow me to change blades.

I am sure an idea will come to me in the shower.

Bill Welch



Scalecoat I and Scalecoat II

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Based on some very frustrating experience I have had lately, I spoke to the new owners of Scalecoat Saturday at the Springfield Train Show.  (Here in Massachusetts, we tend to refer to the “Amherst” show by its location, which is actually in West Springfield, not in or even near Amherst.)

 

I had painted two A units with Scalecoat I EL gray as a primer, and baked it as recommended.  I then painted the top of the nose and the leading edge of the roof, over the windshields, reefer yellow using Scalecoat II, as that is a better match for the Accucal yellow used for ERIE diesel units.  I then put the units under lamps for about a week, as the oven I usually use (not the kitchen oven) turned out to be out of commission.

 

I then masked off the yellow and painted everything not masked off Loco Black, using Scalecoat I.  Same routine with the lamps.

 

Then, when handling the unit, I found that the paint along the edges of the roof would simply rub off, right through the primer to the bare brass!

 

I described all this to the new purveyors of Scalecoat, Minuteman Scale Models from New Hampshire, and found out the following:

 

Scalecoat I followed by Scalecoat I will never have any problems.

 

Scalecoat I followed by Scalecoat II will not have problems.

 

Scalecoat I followed by Scalecoat II, then followed by Scalecoat I as I did, will essentially ruin the paint job, just as I described.

 

Not discussed, but I think logically following, Scalecoat II followed by Scalecoat I will have similar problems.

 

The cause is that the thinner for II if much more volatile than that for I.  When sprayed onto II, the thinner in I will attack and soften the II.  The area which would rub off on these units wasn’t really painted solid, but did have a good bit of overspray, and that was enough to cause the problems.

 

Summary:

I over I, no problems

II over I, no problems

I over II, problems.

 

Best: don’t mix the two.

 

Now, those of you who are anxious to tell me and the rest of us who prefer Scalecoat about how there’s NO problems with water based acrylic paint, please hold your fire.  Those of us who prefer solvent based paints are not going to be swayed.  Thanks.

 

Schuyler

 

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