Date   

Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Bruce, don’t think we’re not thinking about this . . .



Schuyler



I have three more words to add… Shake and Take!



Dennis and Accurail have been amazing supporters of the Shake and Take clinics over the years and this new 36' car is just LOADED with possible applications, such as the ventilated cars. I can certainly see it as fodder for a number of fun conversion projects!!



Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, Al

On Feb 20, 2017, at 10:43 AM, destorzek@mchsi.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <eric@...> wrote :
There are two words that should get the blood flowing for any Y’All road modeler.





Ventilated cars

There were many 36-foot ventilated box cars in the 1945-1952 years.

Eric Hansmann





El Paso, TX

=====================



I keep looking at photos of 'vents', and just don't see a good way to do the barred door. A sandwich of three etchings would do for the door bars and frame, with some molded styrene door rollers, but that just isn't an Accurail 'easy assembly' kit.

Dimensionally, a lot of vents are the same size as this car.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

Jon Miller
 

On 2/20/2017 9:00 AM, John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC] wrote:
so a simple add on in the closed position would work for me.

    Wonder if a 3-D from Shapeways would work here.  Might be too thin for Shapeways!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

Bruce Smith
 

I have three more words to add… Shake and Take!  

Dennis and Accurail have been amazing supporters of the Shake and Take clinics over the years and this new 36' car is just LOADED with possible applications, such as the ventilated cars.  I can certainly see it as fodder for a number of fun conversion projects!!

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, Al

On Feb 20, 2017, at 10:43 AM, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
---In STMFC@..., <eric@...> wrote :
There are two words that should get the blood flowing for any Y’All road modeler.

Ventilated cars
 There were many 36-foot ventilated box cars in the 1945-1952 years. 
Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 =====================


I keep looking at photos of 'vents', and just don't see a good way to do the barred door. A sandwich of three etchings would do for the door bars and frame, with some molded styrene door rollers, but that just isn't an Accurail 'easy assembly' kit.

Dimensionally, a lot of vents are the same size as this car.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

Bill Welch
 

Actually except for the L&N's vents, all the rest of the major's Vents have been covered by resin—CofG, ACL, SAL. Other owners—N&W, C&O, Southern—numbers too inconsequential to interest me.

Re: Don's comments believe or not I have my possibilities firmly in hand and know exactly what I am doing.

Bill Welch


Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Dennis,

Maybe what we need is a conversion mini-kit, or several, since just about every railroad's ventilator cars were unique. Still, there might be some common parts like Wine ventilators that could be mass produced.

Most of these cars had some type of end ventilator, and Wine ventilators were among the most common, though they came in a number of distinctive types. Wine ventilators were also applied to the sides of some cars, including 40' steel types. C&O and Seaboard come to mind. These could be done as thin resin parts, or perhaps Tichy or somebody might tool us up some in styrene.

I remember the old Ambroid ACL kit came with a delicately milled wooden door frame with very fine grooves cut into the back side. Fine wire was inserted into these grooves to make the bars. The frame would be a natural for resin today.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 2/20/17 11:43 AM, destorzek@... [STMFC] wrote:
 


I keep looking at photos of 'vents', and just don't see a good way to do the barred door. A sandwich of three etchings would do for the door bars and frame, with some molded styrene door rollers, but that just isn't an Accurail 'easy assembly' kit.


Dimensionally, a lot of vents are the same size as this car.


Dennis Storzek

 



Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

John Barry
 

Dennis,

I concur that as an out the door kit, it won't fit your business model or the majority of the public's expectations from your line.  However, it is an opportunity for some enterprising soul to add a vent door aftermarket item to convert your kits to vents.  Even I would buy or build a pair of VMs based on a photo I've seen of a pair of ACL VMs in San Francisco near my era. I think they had been used as boxes with the vents closed, so a simple add on in the closed position would work for me.

John
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "destorzek@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

 



---In STMFC@..., wrote :

There are two words that should get the blood flowing for any Y’All road modeler.
 
Ventilated cars
 
 
There were many 36-foot ventilated box cars in the 1945-1952 years.
 
Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX
 =====================

I keep looking at photos of 'vents', and just don't see a good way to do the barred door. A sandwich of three etchings would do for the door bars and frame, with some molded styrene door rollers, but that just isn't an Accurail 'easy assembly' kit.

Dimensionally, a lot of vents are the same size as this car.

Dennis Storzek
 



Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <eric@...> wrote :

There are two words that should get the blood flowing for any Y’All road modeler.

 

Ventilated cars

 

 

There were many 36-foot ventilated box cars in the 1945-1952 years.

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 =====================


I keep looking at photos of 'vents', and just don't see a good way to do the barred door. A sandwich of three etchings would do for the door bars and frame, with some molded styrene door rollers, but that just isn't an Accurail 'easy assembly' kit.


Dimensionally, a lot of vents are the same size as this car.


Dennis Storzek

 


Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

Eric Hansmann
 

John presents interesting comparative quantities for the 36- and 50-foot cars of his early 1945 modeling era. The K brake system ban took effect on January 1, 1954. Many railroads were moving their older equipment to scrap or maintenance in the year or two before the ban. If you are modeling timeframe falls before 1953, then you need to consider the 36-foot box cars as your fleet develops. Just paging through Kline & Culotta’s Postwar Freight Car Fleet reveals many older cars in service.

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

 

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 2:03 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

 

John Barry wrote:


I had to run to the post office and neglected to add that the short box was 57917, 9.4% of the US XM count.  The 119,727 in North America was 16.3% of the continental XMs.

When you look at the XAs, the US numbers were 1643 short, 75517 40ft, 35951 50ft and one 70 ft car for 1.5%, 66.8%, 31.8% and 0%.  The addition of Canada and Mexico did not appreciably change either the quantity or percentage of the various length auto cars.

Put another way, in Jan 1945 when I model, the 36 ft box was almost twice as common as the 50' auto car and more than 4 times as common as a 50' box.  In other words, I need to balance the P2K 50'ers on my roster with a bunch of shortys. 

Well, maybe I can get away with an imbalance account the jeep production at Richmond and the truck production in the South Bay that needed the auto cars, just as I need a higher than standard proportion of flats.

I do look forward to future releases, but at the same time am willing to wait as you 20's modeler's should pay for all the tooling filling your voids.

John Barry


Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

dale florence <dwwesley@...>
 

Tank cars were a round a lot longer then you think  I went to High School from 58 to 62, and I use to have to cross Gibson yards every day. I would read the dates on cars that  were built, in  01,02,03,04,05, 06, etc. All these tank cars were coming from the four refineries in Whiting Indiana

Dale Florence



From: "riverman_vt@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars



Gee, Bill, just think of the broader number of car types there would be for you to model if you backed your time frame up from five to ten years. Let's see, there are all sorts of 36 ft. cars that were gone by 1955 not to mention early reefers and tank cars that you like. Just thinking out loud but consider the possibilities!

My best, Don Valentine





Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

Eric Hansmann
 

There are two words that should get the blood flowing for any Y’All road modeler.

 

Ventilated cars

 

 

There were many 36-foot ventilated box cars in the 1945-1952 years.

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 9:13 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

 



Gee, Bill, just think of the broader number of car types there would be for you to model if you backed your time frame up from five to ten years. Let's see, there are all sorts of 36 ft. cars that were gone by 1955 not to mention early reefers and tank cars that you like. Just thinking out loud but consider the possibilities!

 

My best, Don Valentine



Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

riverman_vt@...
 

Gee, Bill, just think of the broader number of car types there would be for you to model if you backed your time frame up from five to ten years. Let's see, there are all sorts of 36 ft. cars that were gone by 1955 not to mention early reefers and tank cars that you like. Just thinking out loud but consider the possibilities!

My best, Don Valentine


Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

riverman_vt@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <westerfieldalfred@...> wrote :

Dennis - When I copied the AC&F builders photos I was given permission to reproduce them in any way I wanted.  If you have the Westerfield AC&F photos disk you can also do so.  - Al Westerfield



      That's what I was advised by the ACF folks as well, Al, when I was there making copies and this was long before the Mercantile Library became involved.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Upcoming RPMs

Eric Hansmann
 

A  bunch of prototype modeler events are set for the next few months. The Resin Car Works blog features a calendar review to help you plan your RPM adventures.

http://blog.resincarworks.com/rpm-season-2/



If I missed an event, please send me an email with the details.


Eric Hansmann

RCW web guy


Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote :




Physical possession of negatives or drawings does not constitute renewed copyright.
So while a museum or library can control access to physical materials, it does not
change the copyright status of the materials! Of course you might really piss them
off and they'll never let you in the door again, so there's that.
====================

Tim you are correct. For material this old, it's a matter of contract law, not copyright. Many places do as the Mercantile Library does, and sign you to a licensing agreement before giving you the photo. If you violate the agreement, most likely they won't sue you, although they could... But they'll certainly never deal with you again.

Dennis - When I copied the AC&F builders photos I was given permission to reproduce them in any way I wanted.  If you have the Westerfield AC&F photos disk you can also do so.  - Al Westerfield
====================

Al, I'll pass that on to Ray, who I think has plans to publish photos of these cars.

Dennis Storzek


2017 NERPM in Enfield, CT is June 2-3

Dave Owens
 

Hello all:

We are working on the program for this year's NE Proto Meet/NERPM,
scheduled for Friday and Saturday, June 2-3, 2017 in Enfield,
Connecticut, and we hope you can join us.

Our meet consists of a variety of clinics, a large model display,
manufacturers, some great vendors and layout open houses.

And to make it even easier to register for the meet, we have online
registration on our webpage.

This will be our second year at the Holiday Inn Springfield South in
Enfield, which is just off exit 49 of I-91.

We plan to have three clinics at a time, a separate room for vendors,
and then a large room for models, non-selling manufacturers and
historical societies.

Our goal is to make the model display room more relaxed so that it
becomes a place where people can pull up chairs and hang out and chat,
much like it was in Collinsville. Last year, the model/vendor room was
too crowded.

We'll have a variety of first-class vendors, including Funaro &
Camerlengo, Ron's Books, Bob's Photo, Minuteman Scale Models,
Speedwitch Media, the Hobby Gallery, New England Rail Service and
Tom's Trains, to name but a few. Manufacturers we expect to join us
include Rapido, Atlas and ESU-Loksound.

We will offer a varied program that hits on a variety of model
railroading and prototype topics. As always, our goal is for everyone
to have a great time, to learn and to get energized to go home and do
some great modeling.

And with about 60 clinic slots to fill, we need help! If you have an
idea for a clinic, please tell us about it. And if you know of another
person who would be a good addition to the meet, please tell us about
them.

We'll also have a room dedicated to hands-on clinics.

As always, people who present clinics get into the meet at no cost. We
also intend to provide an honorarium to presenters.

We hope to have at least one activity Thursday evening and will have
layout open houses on Sunday. We'll also try for operating sessions at
area layouts on Thursday.

If you need lodging, we hope you'll consider staying at the meet
hotel. We have to fill a certain number of rooms to ensure we can keep
the meet at the hotel in the future. If you plan to stay at the meet
hotel, our code is RPM. A link for the hotel is on our web page:
http://nerpm.org/index.html

Also, please follow us on Facebook for updates: https://www.facebook.com/NERPM/

Please do not hesitate to contact me with any questions, comments,
suggestions, criticisms, etc.

Thanks again,

Dave Owens
Meet coordinator
neprotomeet@gmail.com


Admin: Approval of photos

Mikebrock
 

Tim O’Connor writes:

 

“Any ACF photos published in the USA (say, in a Car Builder Cyclopedia) before
1923 are expired copyrights - they are in the PUBLIC DOMAIN - unless they were
republished later with notice (1923 to 1963) with a RENEWED copyright, or they
were republished with notice (1964 to 1977). Somehow I doubt ACF republished the
images or renewed the copyrights.

Physical possession of negatives or drawings does not constitute renewed copyright.
So while a museum or library can control access to physical materials, it does not
change the copyright status of the materials! Of course you might really piss them
off and they'll never let you in the door again, so there's that.

EVERYTHING published prior to 1897 (120 years ago) is expired. The 120 year limit
applies to all works, even modern works.”

 

Yes, but the way Yahoo makes sure those photos that ARE still under protection is for the owner to verify them. Hence, approval.

 

Mike Brock

STMFC Owner



Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

Tim O'Connor
 


Any ACF photos published in the USA (say, in a Car Builder Cyclopedia) before
1923 are expired copyrights - they are in the PUBLIC DOMAIN - unless they were
republished later with notice (1923 to 1963) with a RENEWED copyright, or they
were republished with notice (1964 to 1977). Somehow I doubt ACF republished the
images or renewed the copyrights.

Physical possession of negatives or drawings does not constitute renewed copyright.
So while a museum or library can control access to physical materials, it does not
change the copyright status of the materials! Of course you might really piss them
off and they'll never let you in the door again, so there's that.

EVERYTHING published prior to 1897 (120 years ago) is expired. The 120 year limit
applies to all works, even modern works.

http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm

Tim O'Connor




Dennis - When I copied the AC&F builders photos I was given permission to reproduce them in any way I wanted.  If you have the Westerfield AC&F photos disk you can also do so.  - Al Westerfield


Admin: RE: photos..

Mikebrock
 

Tim O'Connor says: "..but you can't post photos to STMFC yet".



True. I'm not sure what Tim means by "yet". Photos may be sent to the STMFC
but require "approval" for display in order to verify copyright ownership. I
don't see that changing any time soon considering that it is a law.



Mike Brock

STMFC Owner








From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:09 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Car supports...






they sound interesting but you can't post photos to STMFC yet

A couple of years ago, I designed a pair of HO freight car supports and had
them printed in 3D by Shapeways. They let you position a model freight car
that you are working on with either the roof up or the underbody up and are
very stable. They should work with box cars, stock cars, refrigerator cars,
flat cars, and gondolas but probably not very well with tank cars. I know,
you can make cut-outs in the box the kit came from but I like to be a
little
more hi-tech than that.



I've been using mine for the past couple of years and decided to offer them
to others. At $21.75 for a pair they aren't cheap but I had them printed in
the cheapest material available from Shapeways and the price reflects the
quantity of material in the pair.the pieces are 3/16" thick for stability.
My cost is $20.91 and Shapeways adds 3.5% for handling the sales aspects so
I price them at $21.75 for a pair.an $0.11 markup.



Attached are four photos. The first photo shows the six pieces connected by
sprues. The second photo shows the two supports built up. You need to cut
off the sprues and glue the parts together with 5-minute epoxy. Be sure
that
the leg supports are square with the body and that you assemble them on a
flat surface. The other two photos show a refrigerator car in both
positions.



I'm sharing these in case someone else might think that they might be
beneficial.



Jack Burgess


Re: Steamtown photos

Eric Hansmann
 

Claus,

I don't think this Coal & Coke box car has an end door. While there are end
door dimensions on the ORER listing, I think these reflect the sizes of the
smaller doors on the car side that can be seen in the image.

A beehive coke facility often had tracks lower than an area where coke was
pulled from the ovens to cool. Here's a great HABS/HAER drawing that
illustrates the loading area for a beehive coke operation.
http://www.wvexp.com/index.php/File:Bee_Hive_Coke_Oven_3.jpg

The smaller doors on the C&C box car would line up well with the area to
load coke. Here's the image link again to review.
http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-01-21-17/A-235.jpg




Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:52 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Steamtown photos

Hi Eric and List members,

I had not known the car had an end door.

I wonder if perhaps the intention of the side openings was to allow one to
load the car with a conveyor from the side (one door each for the left and
right hand parts of the car), and the intention for the end door was so one
could load the entire car with a conveyor via the end door.

You mention the car was far from its home territory - it would seen like
these cars would also be very useful for loading long lumber, in which case
it might travel a bit further than one might think. The car would need to
have any remaining coal or coke thoroughly swept out first, but a work crew
could easily handle that jon.

Claus Schlund



----- Original Message -----
From: "'Eric Hansmann' eric@hansmanns.org [STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Steamtown photos


It could be, Claus. I stumbled upon that image last month, too, and the
doors are a puzzle. It is a bit removed from West Virginia home rails.

As per a 1909 ORER, C&C 497 is one of 500 cars in the 100-599 series.
There
are no notes associated with the cars but there are dimensions for an end
door. These don't seem like typical end door dimensions for a car of
8-foot,
4-inch interior width; 4-foot, 6-inches wide and 3-foot, 7.25-inches tall.


Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX



-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 12:42 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Steamtown photos

Hi Earl and List Members,

Thanks Earl for the list of images.

I find the image linked below to be of interest...

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-01-21-17/A-235.jpg

The C&C boxcar seems to have covered openings in the sides of the car. Any
thoughts? Given the road name, is this car perhaps intended to actually be
used for coal and/or coke loading?

Claus Schlund





------------------------------------
Posted by: "Eric Hansmann" <eric@hansmanns.org>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links





------------------------------------
Posted by: "Claus Schlund" <claus@hellgatemodels.com>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Re: Accurail 36 foot boxcars

 

Dennis - When I copied the AC&F builders photos I was given permission to reproduce them in any way I wanted.  If you have the Westerfield AC&F photos disk you can also do so.  - Al Westerfield


On Sunday, February 19, 2017 1:58 PM, "destorzek@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Well, it's been nice reading the heated discussion about the new Accurail car kit. I have to apologize for my rather terse reply Friday... I was feeling like crap, checked the e-mail one last time before leaving work, and Andy's message popped up. Now that I'm feeling better, let's see if I can cover all replies in one message.

PROTOTYPE
I thought it was no secret that this is a New York Central System car - both versions. The NYC adopted this fishbelly underframe before they adopted steel ends, so the cars were built new both ways. The 1400 and 1800 series kits are going to be the same bodies with a straight 15" channel underframe that will allow them to become "stand-ins" for the great number of prototypes that did not have fishbelly center sills.

SOURCE DATA
The NYC had these cars built for itself and subsidiaries by at least five builders, over a span of eleven or so years. Drawings of lots built by both Pullman Co. and Haskell & Barker exist in the Pullman Library of the Illinois Railway Museum... extensive coverage, but incomplete. There are also no builders photos in the IRM collection. The best builders photos are of AC&F cars. There are identifiable minor differences between each lot I have drawings for, and also between those drawings and the AC&F cars in the photos.

DEVIATION FROM ORIGINAL
The Pullman and H&B drawings, and all the builders photos, show the cars were built with outside metal roofs having prominent clasps holding the ends of the seam caps and additional clasps holding the middle of the sheets at the eaves. These are the original form of a non-flexible outside metal roof, and they did not last long at all. There are numerous photos of the cars still with their pre-1926 data lettering that have had their roofs replaced. In the materials from the Pullman Library were some drawings of rebuildings of NYC truss rod cars with new underframes dated 1922, and those showed the replacement roofs. Manufacturer is not noted, but they look like Murphy XLA, and that is what is on the kits.

PUBLISHING PROTOTYPE DATA
I'm sorry, the license agreement with Bombardier Corp, the actual owner of the drawings in the IRM collection prohibits reproduction.Likewise, while the AC&F photos are on loan to us, I know that the St. Louis Mercantile Library, the holder of the ACF builders photo collection, has essentially the same terms, requiring payment of royalties for publication. Accurail is not in the publishing business. We've done our homework to develop the kits, they are what they are, anyone who wants prototype photos will need to do their own research.  Ray Breyer has been generous in sharing what he has, and has mentioned his intention to publish articles about the cars in the future.The material IS out there.

THAT END SILL
These cars have a channel steel end sill with the flanges turned inward, rather than outward as is common on many other cars. The underframe is exactly the same length on cars with either wood or steel ends, with the end material outside the ends. Since the wood car siding is 9/16" thicker than the steel end sheet, that means the wood car is actually 1-1/8" longer over the sheathing. This was going to cause a problem with the fascia under a common roof. While the H&B drawings show the car siding stopping at the top of the end sill channel, thus overhanging the face of the channel by 13/16", the AC&F photos show much less overhang... of course, without access to the AC&F drawings, it's impossible to tell exactly what they did differently.  To solve my fascia problem. I decreased the overhang of the siding by .005", to about a scale 3/8". This seems consistent with what shows in the AC&F photos.

Also, thanks Tony for pointing out those six square things on the corners are bolt heads, not rivets.

Dennis Storzek




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