Date   

Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Charles Hostetler
 

Hi Jim,

I took a quick look for shipments of coal to California, Oregon, and Washington In 1951 and 1952 from the 1% Waybill Survey.  These figures are carloads in the sample; to estimate carloads per year multiply by 100. 

There was 1 shipment of anthracite from Pennsylvania to Oregon in the 1952 sample.  All other coal in 1951 and 1952 sample were bituminous: 

To California 
From Arkansas - 21 (1951); 20 (1952)
From New Mexico - 0 (1951); 16 (1952)
From Oklahoma - 0 (1951); 4 (1952)
From Utah - 149 (1951); 128 (1952)
From WVa - 3 (1951); 1 (1952)
From Wyoming - 5 (1951); 2 (1952)

To Oregon
From Utah - 33 (1951); 42 (1952)
From WVa - 0 (1951); 1 (1952)
From Wyoming - 20 (1951); 15 (1952)

To Washington:
From Colorado - 2 (1951); 1 (1952)
From Montana - 21 (1951); 12 (1952)
From Okla - 1 (1951); 0 (1952)
From Utah - 114 (1951); 151 (1952)
From Wash - 95 (1951); 117 (1952)
From WVa - 0 (1951); 1 (1952)
From Wyo - 79 (1951); 117 (1952)

I would say that most of the bituminous coal going to California, Oregon, and Washington came from Utah and Wyoming, with secondary flows from Arkansas and Montana.  It also appears that there was a pretty significant redistribution flow (From Wash to Wash) that was probably from the coal docks in the Tacoma tide flats or Puget Sound.  

Regards,

Charles Hostetler
Washington Ill


Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Tony Thompson
 

JIm I believe back then all commodities traveled by a ton mile price.  So if A traveled 10 miles and B traveled 15 miles.  A would be cheaper for the same tonnage.  Then there is also the price of the coal and if it varied any.

     Not when the ICC was in charge. Maybe today.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Betz wrote:

How far would coal be shipped in hoppers? Especially as
it relates to the West Coast. I'm talking about regular
everyday coal for steam - such as to a railroad or to a
cement plant (or any other large industry such as a steel
mill or power plant).


   Two points: first, it depends on a number of factors as to route, etc.. Second, steam coal to a power plant, or premium locomotive coal, is very different from coal for fuel at a cement plant. Broadly speaking, these are all different. Coal may easily come from different places to satisfy different needs.

And what was truly in control of the sourcing of coal?
Of course it was price per ton - but, for instance, how
much closer would the coal mine have to be before
the shipping costs based upon ton miles started to be
more important than how many RRs were involved in
the shipment or other factors?


         You would just look up the tariff. Tariffs were all over the map, and were most certainly NOT, repeat NOT, scalable by distance. They were tariffs between points. There were often discrepancies, and then special rules were put it to try and avoid ways to end-run the tariff. Complex subject, I'll expand if anyone really wants to know.

For instance - where would coal for such purposes
have been shipped from - going to locations in Central
or Northern California?
I know there was coal in Utah that was being shipped
to Southern California. Other sources/locations?


Western Colorado, Eastern Utah coal was decent quality. So was Black Diamond coal from Washington. Coal certainly came from farther away when there were strikes in one of the mining areas.

Extra credit - what 'influence' did the railroad that the
industry was on have on the source of the coal in
received? For instance if you have a cement plant
in Northern California being served by the ATSF ...
where did the coal it received -probably- come from?


       Again, just look at the tariffs. No simple answer.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Tom Vanwormer
 

Jim,
The Southern Pacific in the 1890s was shipping coal from Australia, Japan and British Columbia. 
Tom VanWormer
Documenting the 1890s

jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Hi,

How far would coal be shipped in hoppers? Especially as
it relates to the West Coast. I'm talking about regular
everyday coal for steam - such as to a railroad or to a
cement plant (or any other large industry such as a steel
mill or power plant).
And what was truly in control of the sourcing of coal?
Of course it was price per ton - but, for instance, how
much closer would the coal mine have to be before
the shipping costs based upon ton miles started to be
more important than how many RRs were involved in
the shipment or other factors?

For instance - where would coal for such purposes
have been shipped from - going to locations in Central
or Northern California?
I know there was coal in Utah that was being shipped
to Southern California. Other sources/locations?

Extra credit - what 'influence' did the railroad that the
industry was on have on the source of the coal in
received? For instance if you have a cement plant
in Northern California being served by the ATSF ...
where did the coal it received -probably- come from?

Steam/transition era answers only - please. I'm not
asking "what is happening today?" or "what happened
in the 70's or 80's?".
- Jim B.


Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Tim O'Connor
 


 >> How far would coal be shipped in hoppers?


ALL tariffs after the creation of the ICC were subject to regulation
and review. In order to ship commodity X from point A to point B there
had to be a tariff on file. Shippers as well as other railroads could
comment on or protest a tariff filing. But once the tariff from A to B
was in place, then ANY railroads that could fulfill that movement could
offer to move commodity X under the tariff to all potential shippers.

Why the roundabout explanation? Because A to B may not be a straight line.
Railroad P may have a direct route from A to B, but railroad Q might have
to go from A to C to B, possibly adding HUNDREDS of miles to the route. In
that case, the rate is the SAME regardless of the distance. Why would Q do it?
Many reasons are possible. Q might figure that a little extra tonnage on
their daily A-to-C or C-to-B freights is a tiny fractional cost, so why not?
Or maybe they're doing it to spite railroad P. Real examples abound, so we
know it happened all the time. My favorite example is Peoria to St Louis
via the CNW (less than 200 miles), and the Rock Island signed on to the
same tariff and had to haul the cargo Peoria to Kansas City, and back to
St Louis - about 600 miles!

In general, though, "steam coal" was widely available around the country so
the average haul was definitely less than 500 miles. Special grades of coal
such as met coal or anthracite could travel much farther because it wasn't
found in all coal deposits.

Tim O'


Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Al Kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

Not to be picky but 10 miles or 15 miles is a local charge and would be different than long haul . . . many times two local runs say from mine to the yard and the yard to the customer.


Al Kresse

On February 26, 2017 at 7:56 PM "bill Vaughn atsfmodlr@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

 

JIm I believe back then all commodities traveled by a ton mile price.  So if A traveled 10 miles and B traveled 15 miles.  A would be cheaper for the same tonnage.  Then there is also the price of the coal and if it varied any.

Bill Vaughn


On Sunday, February 26, 2017 4:39 PM, "jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


 
Hi,

How far would coal be shipped in hoppers? Especially as
it relates to the West Coast. I'm talking about regular
everyday coal for steam - such as to a railroad or to a
cement plant (or any other large industry such as a steel
mill or power plant).
And what was truly in control of the sourcing of coal?
Of course it was price per ton - but, for instance, how
much closer would the coal mine have to be before
the shipping costs based upon ton miles started to be
more important than how many RRs were involved in
the shipment or other factors?

For instance - where would coal for such purposes
have been shipped from - going to locations in Central
or Northern California?
I know there was coal in Utah that was being shipped
to Southern California. Other sources/locations?

Extra credit - what 'influence' did the railroad that the
industry was on have on the source of the coal in
received? For instance if you have a cement plant
in Northern California being served by the ATSF ...
where did the coal it received -probably- come from?

Steam/transition era answers only - please. I'm not
asking "what is happening today?" or "what happened
in the 70's or 80's?".
- Jim B.
 


 


 


Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Bill Vaughn
 

JIm I believe back then all commodities traveled by a ton mile price.  So if A traveled 10 miles and B traveled 15 miles.  A would be cheaper for the same tonnage.  Then there is also the price of the coal and if it varied any.

Bill Vaughn


On Sunday, February 26, 2017 4:39 PM, "jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Hi,

How far would coal be shipped in hoppers? Especially as
it relates to the West Coast. I'm talking about regular
everyday coal for steam - such as to a railroad or to a
cement plant (or any other large industry such as a steel
mill or power plant).
And what was truly in control of the sourcing of coal?
Of course it was price per ton - but, for instance, how
much closer would the coal mine have to be before
the shipping costs based upon ton miles started to be
more important than how many RRs were involved in
the shipment or other factors?

For instance - where would coal for such purposes
have been shipped from - going to locations in Central
or Northern California?
I know there was coal in Utah that was being shipped
to Southern California. Other sources/locations?

Extra credit - what 'influence' did the railroad that the
industry was on have on the source of the coal in
received? For instance if you have a cement plant
in Northern California being served by the ATSF ...
where did the coal it received -probably- come from?

Steam/transition era answers only - please. I'm not
asking "what is happening today?" or "what happened
in the 70's or 80's?".
- Jim B.



ATSF caboose truck

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

    Are there any trucks close to this one?  Also this is from the side door caboose so wonder if by '41 the trucks were changed?  Not even sure these were used at all by '41!



-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Shipping Coal - How Far?

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

How far would coal be shipped in hoppers? Especially as
it relates to the West Coast. I'm talking about regular
everyday coal for steam - such as to a railroad or to a
cement plant (or any other large industry such as a steel
mill or power plant).
And what was truly in control of the sourcing of coal?
Of course it was price per ton - but, for instance, how
much closer would the coal mine have to be before
the shipping costs based upon ton miles started to be
more important than how many RRs were involved in
the shipment or other factors?

For instance - where would coal for such purposes
have been shipped from - going to locations in Central
or Northern California?
I know there was coal in Utah that was being shipped
to Southern California. Other sources/locations?

Extra credit - what 'influence' did the railroad that the
industry was on have on the source of the coal in
received? For instance if you have a cement plant
in Northern California being served by the ATSF ...
where did the coal it received -probably- come from?

Steam/transition era answers only - please. I'm not
asking "what is happening today?" or "what happened
in the 70's or 80's?".
- Jim B.


Re: Really interesting freight car photos today

Bill Welch
 

I have an Icing Scene photo that must date just after Western Fruit was formed showing two of their reefers still mostly in their GN scheme with large Goat but with their "GN" reporting marks painted out and WFEX stenciling. Coupled between them is an ex-L&N reefer just taken into FGE ownership with expedient reporting marks similarly applied in white stencil paste as L&N car was BCR.

Bill Welch


Re: Really interesting freight car photos today

gary laakso
 

When Great Northern created the wholly-owned subsidiary Western Fruit Express in 1923, their refrigerator cars were repainted and a much smaller full face herald was used.  I have not found many photos to confirm, but my guess would be that the re-paints came very fast. 

 

Gary Laakso

South of Mike Brock

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 3:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Really interesting freight car photos today

 

 

Hi Schuyler,

I find images 1427 and 1426 to be most interesting, as on the left side of the photo is a string of reefers, including one or two from the Great Northern.  What is unique to me is the GN goat herald on the reefer side.  That herald was common on box cars during that era, but did not realize it had also been applied to reefers.  Wonder how long that herald lasted into the 1920's?

Ted

At 10:32 AM 2/26/2017, you wrote:

http://lists.railfan.net/listthumb.cgi?erielack-02-26-17
 
In particular, image 1424.  Check out the roof in the foreground.  Hatches and different roofs on the two sides of the same car!
 
Schuyler

Rails Unlimited
Ted Schnepf
railsunl@...
847-697-5353
126 Will Scarlet
Elgin, Ill. 60120
http://RailsUnlimited.ribbonrail.com/

Model Railroad Sales and Service with
a personal touch.
Books new and used.  HO and O scales.
DCC supplies. O scale urethane cars.
Photos and darkroom services.
Checks, cash (0%) or credit (secure server at web site 5% added).


Avast logo

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

 


Steam Era Freight Cars Reference Manual, Vol. 3 and FOFC re-prints

Ted Culotta
 

Apologies if you've received this elsewhere....

It's been about a decade since the last Steam Era Freight Cars Reference Manual was published. The wait is over. I am happy to announce the next volume in the series: Volume Three: Refrigerator Cars. Like the previous titles, it is intended to be a go-to reference to understand the major prototypes roaming the rails during the late Steam Era (1920s to the early 1950s). Information may be found at http://speedwitchmedia.com

There is a pre-order discount period that runs through March 10th.

For those who may have missed them, Focus on Freight Cars, Volume Three: Refrigerator Cars and Volume Four: Steel Box Cars, are being re-printed. There is a discounted pre-order for those two titles, as well.

Thank you.
Cheers,
Ted



Re: Really interesting freight car photos today

Ted Schnepf
 

Hi Schuyler,

I find images 1427 and 1426 to be most interesting, as on the left side of the photo is a string of reefers, including one or two from the Great Northern.  What is unique to me is the GN goat herald on the reefer side.  That herald was common on box cars during that era, but did not realize it had also been applied to reefers.  Wonder how long that herald lasted into the 1920's?

Ted

At 10:32 AM 2/26/2017, you wrote:


http://lists.railfan.net/listthumb.cgi?erielack-02-26-17
 
In particular, image 1424.  Check out the roof in the foreground.  Hatches and different roofs on the two sides of the same car!
 
Schuyler

Rails Unlimited
Ted Schnepf
railsunl@...
847-697-5353
126 Will Scarlet
Elgin, Ill. 60120
http://RailsUnlimited.ribbonrail.com/

Model Railroad Sales and Service with
a personal touch.
Books new and used.  HO and O scales.
DCC supplies. O scale urethane cars.
Photos and darkroom services.
Checks, cash (0%) or credit (secure server at web site 5% added).


Re: steamerafreightcars.com - Updated 1932 ARA, 1937 AAR, Modified 19...

Greg Martin
 

Ed,
 
I am on AOL and my default browser is set for Google and it came through just fine.
 
I really appreciate all the time and energy you have put into this information. I have a couple of unfinished Athearn AAR boxcars that came to me from the Stan Rydariwzc estate and he did just the very basics to them. I want for step back a bit and perhaps remove the ends ala WESTRAILS thinking and upgrade it to some basic personal standards that I think Stan would have gone to. Stan over the years gave me several partially finished project that under scrutiny just didn't stand up, but not that there wasn't some genius in there, there was but he ran into an issue that made him stop.
 
These are fun projects that I will post to Shake N Take as they develop and perhaps in MRH under Mont and my byline "at the Bench"  or RMC under my old byline "jewels from the junk box" or "weekender projects" . This is all just to help promote folks to model again using the information you have provided.
 
 
Greg Martin    
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 2/21/2017 10:09:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
Jim,
I Al need to figure out why the exact same PDFs that I sent to Rob had thin grid lines when I printed/saved them from Microsoft Excel spreadsheets appear much different when downloaded from the STMFC web site. The files I downloaded in 8 1/2  x 11 format have very thick grid lines, and the 11 x 17 tabloid files are nearly all black. 

All of this makes no sense to me. There an obvious incompatibility somewhere that needs fixing. I created the Excel files on an iMac using OS 10.9 & Excel 2011 upgraded recently to version 14.7.1. The Adobe Acrobat software I  using is 15.020.20042.

If anyone has ideas of how to generate these files so that anyone car download them and read them as intended with thin grid lines, please contact me Off List at hawk0621@.... 
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Sunshine 44.4 X37B

Ted Culotta
 

Does anybody out there have a spare kit 44.4 PRR X37B that they'd care to part with? I'm a builder, not a collector, so I have to preface it by saying that I don't mind paying a premium, but I don't want it enough to pay collectors' prices! If anyone is so inclined, I'd also swap a built and weathered F&C X37 (although I just sent the decal artwork to be printed so it could be as much as 6-8 weeks before I can finish and send the completed F&C model). Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Ted


Re: Really interesting freight car photos today

Charles Peck
 

One more step towards proving that there is a prototype for everything. Except molded on ladders and hand grabs I guess.
Chuck Peck in FL

On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

On 2/26/2017 9:31 AM, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] wrote:
And BTW, I meant No. 1425, not 1424.  Even wrote the number down so I'd get
it right and then posted it incorrectly.  Some days . . .

 Schuyler

    If one modeled that car it would get a lot of comments (grin)!

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems,
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS



Re: Really interesting freight car photos today

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 2/26/2017 9:31 AM, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] wrote:
And BTW, I meant No. 1425, not 1424.  Even wrote the number down so I'd get
it right and then posted it incorrectly.  Some days . . .

 Schuyler

    If one modeled that car it would get a lot of comments (grin)!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Decal tips

Gary Ray
 

Eric,

 

Thanks for posting the tips.  I enjoy reading your blogs.

 

Gary Ray

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 7:07 AM
To: 1914to1940rring@...; stmfc@...; resinfreightcars@...; proto-layouts@...
Subject: [STMFC] Decal tips

 




After painting a few models recently, it was time to apply decals. A few tips are shared in the latest DesignBuildOp blog post.

 

http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/2017/02/26/fresh-decals/

 

 

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX





Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Really interesting freight car photos today

Schuyler Larrabee
 

But Gary, look at the roof itself. Left side, wood boards, right side,
Viking!



I agree that the hatches were originally the same, but now that I see the
roof's been replaced/rebuilt, maybe one of these (probably the one on the
right) is a rebuilt/replacement hatch.



And BTW, I meant No. 1425, not 1424. Even wrote the number down so I'd get
it right and then posted it incorrectly. Some days . . .



Schuyler



Schuyler: You found a really great picture! Thank you for sharing it.
It appears that both hatches were originally 7 boards wide with the one on
the grab iron side having ages with heavy use with all the hardware loose,
perhaps accelerated from the loss of the catch board that would hold the
hatch before it slammed onto the roof. I think that they are the same
hatches, just at different ages of use. If there is any paint left over on
the roof, it sure appears to have fallen off the car.



Gary Laakso

South of Mike Brock



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 11:33 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Really interesting freight car photos today





http://lists.railfan.net/listthumb.cgi?erielack-02-26-17



In particular, image 1424. Check out the roof in the foreground. Hatches
and different roofs on the two sides of the same car!



Schuyler


Re: Really interesting freight car photos today

gary laakso
 

Schuyler:  You found a really great picture!  Thank you for sharing it.    It appears that both hatches were originally 7 boards wide with the one on the grab iron side having ages with heavy use with all the hardware loose, perhaps accelerated from the loss of the catch board that would hold the hatch before it slammed onto the roof.  I think that they are the same hatches, just at different ages of use.  If there is any paint left over on the roof, it sure appears to have fallen off the car. 

 

Gary Laakso

South of Mike Brock

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 11:33 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Really interesting freight car photos today

 

 

http://lists.railfan.net/listthumb.cgi?erielack-02-26-17

 

In particular, image 1424.  Check out the roof in the foreground.  Hatches and different roofs on the two sides of the same car!

 

Schuyler

 

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