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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
George Courtney
I'm not that knowledgable, but isn't one factor getting a contract? A foundry in Chicago might want to buy coal from a mine in eastern Kentucky. But that mine has a contact with a steel mill in Gary that takes all the coal it can mine.
So the foundry finds a supplier in West Virginia. But then a newly opened mine in S.W. Virginia underprices the West Virginia mine. The L&N asks for a tariff to compete with the C&O's tariff in West Virginia. Like a contractor a mine will take a million dollar bid over ten hundred thousand dollar bids. Thus the coal contract itself is another factor beyond BTU and distance? Again I don't clam expertise just adding to the discussion. George Courtney
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
Aley, Jeff A
Oops. I didn’t see that Charles had already replied. My email software puts “RE: [STMFC] Shipping Coal” into a separate thread from “RE: [STMFC] Re: Shipping Coal”.
Mea culpa.
-Jeff
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 2:07 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: RE: [STMFC] Shipping Coal - How Far?
This looks like a job for Super [Charles] Hostetler!
Seriously, what you probably want is to look at the ICC 1% Waybill analysis for state-to-state distribution of coal. It should very clearly show which states supplied coal to California.
Charles probably has the data at his fingertips. (Who knows, it may already be in his blog).
Regards,
-Jeff
From:
STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Hi,
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
Aley, Jeff A
This looks like a job for Super [Charles] Hostetler!
Seriously, what you probably want is to look at the ICC 1% Waybill analysis for state-to-state distribution of coal. It should very clearly show which states supplied coal to California.
Charles probably has the data at his fingertips. (Who knows, it may already be in his blog).
Regards,
-Jeff
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 4:39 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Shipping Coal - How Far?
Hi,
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
And there's that photo in C&NW In Color Volume 1, p. 97 - a 1953 photo of a Reading hopper (bearing the famous anthracite red/black logo) on the dock in Manitowoc Wisconsin! :-) Tim O'Connor
In the 19th Century and the early part of the 20th the west end of the Lackawanna railroad was Green Bay, Wisconsin. DL&W president Sam Sloan was also president or an officer of nearly 30 other railroads, including the Kewanee, Green Bay & Western and other grangers as Sloan tried to develop new markets. Sloan, Iowa, was named for him. Anthracite from Lackawanna-owned mines near Scranton traveled via lake boats from Buffalo and reloaded into local-road railcars in Green Bay.
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
MDelvec952
In the 19th Century and the early part of the 20th the west end of the Lackawanna railroad was Green Bay, Wisconsin. DL&W president Sam Sloan was also president or an officer of nearly 30 other railroads, including the Kewanee, Green Bay & Western and other grangers as Sloan tried to develop new markets. Sloan, Iowa, was named for him. Anthracite from Lackawanna-owned mines near Scranton traveled via lake boats from Buffalo and reloaded into local-road railcars in Green Bay.
....Mike Del Vecchio
Coal was brought into Duluth-Superior on lake boats, and reloaded into -----Original Message----- From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] To: STMFC Sent: Mon, Feb 27, 2017 3:43 pm Subject: Re: [STMFC] Shipping Coal - How Far? Coal was brought into Duluth-Superior on lake boats, and reloaded into railroad cars. And there was a steel mill in the same vicinity. I don't know how much coal was brought into the area in the STMFC era. Tim O'Connor >Actually, only partially true, at least as far as the statements about the GN. In 1950, the GN owned almost 3000 GS gondolas, and just less than 700 50 ton twin hoppers, AAR class HM. The vast majority of the thousands of AAR class HM hoppers the GN owned were 70 ton ore cars. Given their low cubic capacity, I doubt the ore hoppers were ever used in significant numbers for hauling coal. > >The ore hoppers, (or jennies, if you prefer), however, were used in the seasonal sugar beet rushes, mostly because they were available at the time, as sugar beet harvest coincides with the end of the lake boat ore shipping season. Another reason they were used is the short duration of the sugar beet harvest. Called "campaigns", these lasted about 6-8 weeks, and were short hauls from the beet dumps to the sugar beet refineries. The GN AFEs related to the purchase of the 300 Hart ballast hoppers in 1953 mention the seasonal beet campaigns, but beet traffic alone did not justify investing in specialized cars. GN beet trains would have ore cars, hoppers, GS gondolas, and the longitudinal hoppers, AAR class HK. (The Atlas Hart ballast hopper). > >Lest you think of GS gondolas as a western phenomenon, there is documentation of these cars going all over the United States, as befitting their general service classification. > >Regards, >Bob Heninger >Minot, ND
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Re: Great Northern Car Counts
John Barry
Gary, Bob, Thank you for your clarification r.e. the GN hopper count. Yes, it does include all the H class cars listed in the ORER. When I constructed my index of the Jan 45 ORER, I broke out the XMs and XAs by length, but have road totals for the other classes of cars: V, S, G, F, H, T, R, L, Ballast (MWB) and Log. Some roads included their ballast cars in the H or G classes and for them, those class totals are inflated. I'm sure there are a few errors in the 948 roads entered with a grand total of 2,235,954 cars listed in North America. Well, one less, I did include TOCX, True's Oil Company and the single tank car they owned when they were not listed in that particular edition. A number of other small private owners are not listed in that edition, so the total is off a bit, but by an insignificant amount. John Barry
From: "'gary laakso' vasa0vasa@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 3:09 PM Subject: [STMFC] Great Northern Car Counts That referenced total number of hoppers on the Great Northern includes iron ore cars. The 1947 Annual Report listed 8,006 ore cars and 3,421 coal cars and the number of coal cars included gondolas. GN had few open top hopper cars, only 2 classes by WW II: Standard Steel Car 2 bay cars in the 73200-73699 series and the Canton Car (rebuilds?) of 1929 in the 73000-73199 series. It was 22 years later that additional hoppers were ordered in the 78000-78299 series, 70 ton Rodger-Hart, primarily for ballast service. Gary Laakso South of Mike Brock From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 2:46 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Shipping Coal - How Far? John Barry wrote:
Very true John.Moreover, many of the cars listed as hoppers in the ORER for western roads were ballast cars. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
John and Friends, This doesn't answer the question about coal for Columbia Steel, but here is some information about the plant from my old SN On-line site: http://www.wplives.org/sn/steel.html . Most of their can production was cold rolled, but they also worked steel for other uses. I have seen photos of a hot ladle from their works. It is likely that soaking pits and remelt furnaces were gas fired, as was the case of some other California remelt plants (Bethlehem Steel in Downey being one example). Yours Aye,
Garth Groff
On 2/27/17 2:48 PM, 'Dave Nelson'
Lake_Muskoka@... [STMFC] wrote:
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
Coal was brought into Duluth-Superior on lake boats, and reloaded into
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
railroad cars. And there was a steel mill in the same vicinity. I don't know how much coal was brought into the area in the STMFC era. Tim O'Connor
Actually, only partially true, at least as far as the statements about the GN. In 1950, the GN owned almost 3000 GS gondolas, and just less than 700 50 ton twin hoppers, AAR class HM. The vast majority of the thousands of AAR class HM hoppers the GN owned were 70 ton ore cars. Given their low cubic capacity, I doubt the ore hoppers were ever used in significant numbers for hauling coal.
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Re: Steam Era Freight Cars Reference Manual, Vol. 3 and FOFC re-prints
Tony Thompson
Bob Heninger wrote:
Again, I think Bob has it right. The tank car Reference Manual, Volume 2, is extremely useful, with a wide variety of car pictured. It's like having a terrific photo collection of your own. They are basically Xerox images, but as Bob says, comprehensive and certainly useful. I'm glad Bob posted about these books. I expected Ted to do so, as he's reading the list, but Bob's summary is right on target. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Great Northern Car Counts
gary laakso
That referenced total number of hoppers on the Great Northern includes iron ore cars. The 1947 Annual Report listed 8,006 ore cars and 3,421 coal cars and the number of coal cars included gondolas. GN had few open top hopper cars, only 2 classes by WW II: Standard Steel Car 2 bay cars in the 73200-73699 series and the Canton Car (rebuilds?) of 1929 in the 73000-73199 series. It was 22 years later that additional hoppers were ordered in the 78000-78299 series, 70 ton Rodger-Hart, primarily for ballast service.
Gary Laakso South of Mike Brock
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 2:46 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Shipping Coal - How Far?
John Barry wrote:
Very true John.Moreover, many of the cars listed as hoppers in the ORER for western roads were ballast cars.
Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
Robert Heninger
Actually, only partially true, at least as far as the statements about the GN. In 1950, the GN owned almost 3000 GS gondolas, and just less than 700 50 ton twin hoppers, AAR class HM. The vast majority of the thousands of AAR class HM hoppers the GN owned were 70 ton ore cars. Given their low cubic capacity, I doubt the ore hoppers were ever used in significant numbers for hauling coal. The ore hoppers, (or jennies, if you prefer), however, were used in the seasonal sugar beet rushes, mostly because they were available at the time, as sugar beet harvest coincides with the end of the lake boat ore shipping season. Another reason they were used is the short duration of the sugar beet harvest. Called "campaigns", these lasted about 6-8 weeks, and were short hauls from the beet dumps to the sugar beet refineries. The GN AFEs related to the purchase of the 300 Hart ballast hoppers in 1953 mention the seasonal beet campaigns, but beet traffic alone did not justify investing in specialized cars. GN beet trains would have ore cars, hoppers, GS gondolas, and the longitudinal hoppers, AAR class HK. (The Atlas Hart ballast hopper). Lest you think of GS gondolas as a western phenomenon, there is documentation of these cars going all over the United States, as befitting their general service classification. Regards, Bob Heninger Minot, ND
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
Dave Nelson
I’m skeptical about Colombia Steel needing coal.
The plant did not need coal to produce coke because (AFAIK) there were no blast finances there and I’m inclined to think they did not need boiler coal either as natural gas was readily available as a fuel for any reheat jobs they had. By and large the Colombia Steel plant produced sheet steel for the tin can industry. This product was the highest profit margin for any steel mill and it is produced by rolling cutting, and final finishing of material from steel coils. What I don’t recall right now is whether this was done by cold rolling or whether the source material was heated first. I’m inclined to guess it was cold rolled. Colombia Steel did get a lot of steel coil, DRGW/WP/SN and they shipped their product to can making factories all over central California and perhaps beyond. Dave Nelson From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 11:12 AM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [STMFC] Shipping Coal - How Far? Columbia Steel at Pittsburg, CA got most of it's coal from Utah. Originating on the D&RGW, it went via WP to either Sacramento thence the Sacramento Northern or Stockton for ATSF delivery. Rio Grande had a tremendous fleet of gons (6048 in Jan 45) for hauling that coal and almost no hoppers (72, including a few covered HMRs). Prior to the future, almost all the coal shipped from mines in the western US most likely came in a gon rather than a hopper unless it originated on the GN. They alone of the western roads had a majority of hoppers (9827) over gondolas(1711). Not that hoppers were unknown, the western lines owned 28,801 but they also owned 71,164 gondolas, 2.4 to 1, better than 3 to one outside the GN. John Barry On 2/26/17 8:19 PM, Tom VanWormer robsmom@pcisys.net [STMFC] wrote: Jim, The Southern Pacific in the 1890s was shipping coal from Australia, Japan and British Columbia. Tom VanWormer Documenting the 1890s jimbetz jimbetz@jimbetz.com [STMFC] wrote: Hi, How far would coal be shipped in hoppers? Especially as it relates to the West Coast. I'm talking about regular everyday coal for steam - such as to a railroad or to a cement plant (or any other large industry such as a steel mill or power plant). And what was truly in control of the sourcing of coal? Of course it was price per ton - but, for instance, how much closer would the coal mine have to be before the shipping costs based upon ton miles started to be more important than how many RRs were involved in the shipment or other factors? For instance - where would coal for such purposes have been shipped from - going to locations in Central or Northern California? I know there was coal in Utah that was being shipped to Southern California. Other sources/locations? Extra credit - what 'influence' did the railroad that the industry was on have on the source of the coal in received? For instance if you have a cement plant in Northern California being served by the ATSF ... where did the coal it received -probably- come from? Steam/transition era answers only - please. I'm not asking "what is happening today?" or "what happened in the 70's or 80's?". - Jim B.
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
Tony Thompson
John Barry wrote:
Very true John.Moreover, many of the cars listed as hoppers in the ORER for western roads were ballast cars. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
John Barry
Columbia Steel at Pittsburg, CA got most of it's coal from Utah. Originating on the D&RGW, it went via WP to either Sacramento thence the Sacramento Northern or Stockton for ATSF delivery. Rio Grande had a tremendous fleet of gons (6048 in Jan 45) for hauling that coal and almost no hoppers (72, including a few covered HMRs). Prior to the future, almost all the coal shipped from mines in the western US most likely came in a gon rather than a hopper unless it originated on the GN. They alone of the western roads had a majority of hoppers (9827) over gondolas(1711). Not that hoppers were unknown, the western lines owned 28,801 but they also owned 71,164 gondolas, 2.4 to 1, better than 3 to one outside the GN. John Barry
On 2/26/17 8:19 PM, Tom VanWormer
robsmom@... [STMFC] wrote:
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Re: Steam Era Freight Cars Reference Manual, Vol. 3 and FOFC re-prints
Robert Heninger
Dan, Seeing that no one has answered your question, and having a little time here over lunch, I'll give you my impressions. Focus on Freight Cars is simply a collection of volumes of freight car photos that were in a collection that Ted was given access to. Although the collection of negatives belonged to a man named Michael Urac, I don't believe he was the photographer. The photos were all taken in Southern California, the Los Angeles area, IIRC, in the mid to late 1930s. At any rate, the photos are all clear, well exposed shots showing to good advantage the details of the cars. There is no discernible rhyme or reason for what got photographed, but as I understand the photographer took the pictures with the intent of building models. So they are very much the type of photos I wish I could go trackside today and obtain. Most of the cars are clean, no doubt to show the lettering to good advantage. Although the paint schemes have sometimes changed by my modeling era, oftentimes the details of the cars have not, so I find these books very useful. In contradistinction, the Reference Manuals are much more comprehensive in scope, although they are not exhaustive in their coverage. The boxcar and tank car volumes cover the most numerous types of cars for the largest railroads in the US and Canada. These volumes provide an economical and comprehensive overview of the freight car types they cover, for a good portion of the steam era. They are excellent reference sources. The paper quality and photo reproduction is much better in the FOFC series, however the photos in the Reference Manuals are perfectly usable for modeling. The Reference manuals are much thicker volumes, and would cost much more if printed to the standards of the FOFC books. The volumes are complementary in my opinion. I buy both series as they become available, and many on this list do the same. Regards, Bob Heninger Minot, ND
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
Dave Nelson
In short, coal is basically dirt with a whole lot of stuff mixed in. It is
not a mineral. I'd like to add that the distance involved varies considerably by the nature of the coal. Coking coal will ship much further than boiler coal. Also, do not overlook the HUGE effect the ICC has, which picked markets for producers and controlled rates to keep those producers within those markets. Also, don't overlook rail - water - rail shipments. For most of the steam era it was a savings to deliver boiler coal to a Great Lakes or Atlantic Coast loading point for water transfer when the avoided rail distance was greater than ~100-150 miles. Dave Nelson From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 12:04 AM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Shipping Coal - How Far? I get it that the coal suppliers (mines/etc.) priced by the BTU. Yes, but also by composition: percentage ash, content of sulfur and other undesirables, coking potential, etc. Coal is definitely not just coal. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
railsnw@...
Years ago I was doing research on car shipments on the Yakima Valley Transportation Co. in Yakima, WA during the 1950's. On the railroad were many small coal yards for providing heating coal for houses. Most all of the coal came out of Utah, Montana, and Wyoming and was mostly delivered in drop bottom gondolas, not hoppers.
Rich Wilkens
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1 train crew member needed for Alma branch, Saturday, March 4th
Jared Harper
I still have an opening for a train crew member at the Saturday, March 4th on Alma branch trains 95/96. Lunch will be served before we retire to the basement to operate trains. Jared Harper 420 Woodward Way Athens, GA 30606 706-543-8821
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
Dennis Storzek
Jim Dick said,
"BTUs per ton that is what gives. And what no one has stated so far. That Kentucky Chestnut coal has quite substantial BTU’s compared to the “brown dirt” lignite that the NP mined. It I only that the NP could mine with non-union labor with strip mining techniques that made even that coal useful. The lignite had about 1/3 of the BTU content, however was about 1/4 the price of better grades of coal" Just an anecdote. Back in the steam days the Soo Line bought real bituminous coal for locomotive fuel, but North Dakota lignite for the depot stoves. The late Les Kruta, in his "North Dakota Memories" series in The SOO, mentions that typically every depot had a bucket or two of "locomotive coal", borrowed off the tenders, squirreled away for use on really cold nights when the stove needed all the help it could get. Dennis Storzek
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Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?
Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
Not quite, Allen. By 1924, Phelps Dodge was tired of running a railroad, and approached SP to buy the EP&SW. SP wasn't interested, so they built the Tucson Extension to force SP's hand, and the deal was done. The EP&SW had no intention of building past Tucson. Bill Daniels San Francisco, CA
On Monday, February 27, 2017 5:19 AM, "Allen Montgomery sandbear75@... [STMFC]" wrote: There are plenty of examples of a railroad or mining company buying coal bearing land just to reduce the price for the company. It didn't matter how far away it was if they could mine it cheaper themselves. My favorite example is the Phelps Dodge Company, who owned copper mines in Arizona. They were being eaten alive by shipping coal for their smelters. The cheap solution? Their railroad, the El Paso and Southwestern built a line from El Paso up to Dawson, New Mexico. Building a line across the state just to haul their own coal was cheaper than paying the SP to ship it to them. The outcome of that was that the Rock Island built from Oklahoma to Santa Rosa, where the EP & SW veered off to the northwest. Now the EP & SW had a bridge route all the way to Tucson. There was nothing to stop them from building the rest of the way to California. The SP was so threatened by this that they bought the whole railroad at top dollar. An incredible cost just to limit the competition. And the whole thing started because of the cost of coal. Allen Montgomery P.S. They still haul coal up to Morenci, Arizona in low gondolas. The grade from Clifton to the mine is too steep to use hoppers or bathtubs. On Monday, February 27, 2017 1:04 AM, "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" wrote:
Yes, but also by composition: percentage ash, content of sulfur and other undesirables, coking potential, etc. Coal is definitely not just coal. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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