Date   

Re: early ORER's

Richard Townsend
 

The California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento has an excellent collection of ORERs in their library, which is open to the public.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: mike barone fmikebarone@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Tue, Feb 28, 2017 3:43 pm
Subject: [STMFC] early ORER's

 
Gentlemen:
Would anyone happen to know where I could access ORER's for the 1905-1915 period? I have checked with the NMRA library and they do list the material but it is still in the middle of a move to Sacramento so cannot access these and it maybe some time before they will be available again. I have ORER's both pre and post period so it is only those years I'm lacking. Specifically what I need are the CPR pages for those years,
Thanks
Mike Barone


Re: early ORER's

SUVCWORR@...
 

Some of them are on google books and can be downloaded  1901, 03, 05, 07, 08, 09, 13, 17

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: mike barone fmikebarone@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Tue, Feb 28, 2017 6:43 pm
Subject: [STMFC] early ORER's



Gentlemen:
Would anyone happen to know where I could access ORER's for the 1905-1915 period? I have checked with the NMRA library and they do list the material but it is still in the middle of a move to Sacramento so cannot access these and it maybe some time before they will be available again. I have ORER's both pre and post period so it is only those years I'm lacking. Specifically what I need are the CPR pages for those years,
Thanks
Mike Barone



Re: early ORER's

Ray Breyer
 

Most of them are online as PDFs (or as e-books...yuk) on Google Books. Most specifically, 82 monthly issues between March 1905 and December 1915.

Eric Lombard has an Excel spreadsheet in this group's files section, listing the Google PLAY e-book links. It takes a little cross-digging, but all of the PDFs are also readily available from the more conventional Google Books site.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "mike barone fmikebarone@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 5:37 PM
Subject: [STMFC] early ORER's



Gentlemen:
Would anyone happen to know where I could access ORER's for the 1905-1915 period? I have checked with the NMRA library and they do list the material but it is still in the middle of a move to Sacramento so cannot access these and it maybe some time before they will be available again. I have ORER's both pre and post period so it is only those years I'm lacking. Specifically what I need are the CPR pages for those years,
Thanks
Mike Barone





Re: early ORER's

Jack Burgess
 

The California State Railroad Museum Library most likely has copies of those ORERs and can make photocopies for you:



https://www.californiarailroad.museum/visit/library



Give them a call during open hours.



Jack Burgess







From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 3:38 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: [STMFC] early ORER's








Gentlemen:

Would anyone happen to know where I could access ORER's for the 1905-1915 period? I have checked with the NMRA library and they do list the material but it is still in the middle of a move to Sacramento so cannot access these and it maybe some time before they will be available again. I have ORER's both pre and post period so it is only those years I'm lacking. Specifically what I need are the CPR pages for those years,

Thanks

Mike Barone










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


early ORER's

mike barone
 

Gentlemen:
Would anyone happen to know where I could access ORER's for the 1905-1915 period? I have checked with the NMRA library and they do list the material but it is still in the middle of a move to Sacramento so cannot access these and it maybe some time before they will be available again. I have ORER's both pre and post period so it is only those years I'm lacking. Specifically what I need are the CPR pages for those years,
Thanks
Mike Barone


Re: Really interesting freight car photos today

Dennis Storzek
 

Ten years.... and it didn't have the drawing I thought it had, although I referenced Voss, who does present a drawing of the grooves. The old memory sure isn't what it used to be.

Sorry about the flub in spelling your name, Jack.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Really interesting freight car photos today

Jack Mullen
 

Dennis said:
 as I recall Jack Mullens posted a link to a diagram of the construction used by the Milwaukee Road

I didn't post that diagram, tho I might have referenced it sometime, as I will do now.

. Credit goes to Richard Wilkens, who also posted this accompanying  note with text from a Milw car repair manual.

That was in response to a thread on board roofs, in which Dennis had this informative post:

That all was 10 years ago. A lot of great reference material in the STMFC archives.

Jack Mullen (not plural)


Re: Really interesting freight car photos today

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote :

Thanks, Dennis, I see what you are talking about.  Always glad to be corrected when I screw up.

Were the drain grooves in the center of the boards?  Seems unlikely that the roof would be made with chamfered boards, making the grooves where the joint is.  One groove per board, or multiple?

Schuyler

=============

Well, this took some time. We had some discussion about double board roofs some time ago, and as I recall Jack Mullens posted a link to a diagram of the construction used by the Milwaukee Road. Rather than search for that, I thought I'd use the time to see if I could find an applicable MCB/ARA standard, or Recommended Practice. The ARA adopted standard lumber sections to be used in carbuilding in 1914, revised in 1920. The sections are illustrated in the 1922 CBC. I could not find illustrations from earlier, so can't say what was revised. As of 1920, the standard for "roofing and lining" was 1x4 or 1x6 boards, dressed 13/16" thick with tongue and groove edges, either 3-1/4" or 5-1/4" face. These did not have V grooves. This is what we are seeing on the left side of the roof in the photo.

The double board roof material was harder to track down, as it was apparently never made to any standard. However, illustrations appear in both the 1879 and 1895 Car Builder's Dictionary, both available on-line. Here is a link to the 1895 CBD:

https://books.google.com/books?id=0UJttWHSwNYC&pg=PP9#v=onepage&q&f=false

Unfortunately, There doesn't seem to be any way to link directly to the page. The illustration in question is Fig. 2379 on the bottom of page 205 of the file.

Briefly, the boards are square edge (no T&G) with a half round groove about 1" in from each edge. On the top layer these are intended to catch most (some) of the water sluicing across the roof, and channel it to the eave.  The boards are laid up with a half board overlap, so what water seeps through the joint in the top layer ends up in the middle of the board below. As it spreads sideways, it comes to the half round grooves in the layer below, which channel it out to the eave, or so the theory goes.

Did it work? If it worked well, there never would have been a need to try to develop sheet metal coverings for freightcar roofs. But it did work well enough to be in common usage for three or four decades.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Steam Era Freight Cars Reference Manual, Vol. 3 and FOFC re-prints

Ted Culotta
 

I'm replying Dan's original message. I tend to collect the daily digests and go back to them every few days so I am seeing Dan's message and the replies all anew. Thanks to Bob, Tony, and Bill for their succinct and well reasoned answers. Also, thanks to Tony for his blog posting. I'll add my two cents.

The Reference Manuals are intended to be something that sits on the workbench or desktop and is a quick go-to reference to understand the basics about major prototypes. What was the major house cars type on the Central Vermont? It's in there.

Conversely, as great as the images in the FOFC series are, they are completely governed by what's in the collection. Coverage of prototypes was amazing, but there are gaps in terms of significant prototypes (albeit not many). If it's in the collection, it's in the books. If it's not, then it's absent. I'll refer to but not rehash the comments about the photos being intended for modeling, hence the detail shots are incredible fodder for us. Also, except in rare instances (no other photo of the prototype exists or a detail cannot be referenced any other way) the FOFC images will not appear anywhere else.

If anyone has more questions, I'm happy to answer.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Ted


Ban On Wood Running Boards

thecitrusbelt@...
 

I understand that in 1944 wood running boards banned on new freight cars, except tank cars (1948).
In what year were wood running boards banned for all existing freight cars?
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA



 


Re: K brakes

thecitrusbelt@...
 

If my sources are correct:


1933 -  Type AB brakes required on all newly-built cars.

1937 - Type AB brakes required on all newly-rebuilt cars.


Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA




Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Tim O'Connor
 


I downloaded the PDF - very interesting. California is not even mentioned,
and Washington state shows an 80% decline from 1918 to the late 1940's - down
to 899,000 tons or less than fifty 50 ton carloads a day. Utah shows 7 times
as much, and Colorado 5 times as much, as Washington.

Price patterns are interesting too. From 1940 to 1944 coal prices increased
over 50% !! And continued to rise after the war, with railroad fuel coal prices
doubled from 1940 to 1950. No wonder they dieselized!

Information on work days lost to strikes is remarkable - an AVERAGE of over
40,000 lost days of work PER DAY, EVERY DAY in 1949 - almost 1/10 of the entire
coal mining labor force. Even as mechanization reduced the number of jobs in a
steady pattern that continues to this day.

Tim O'Connor



Jim,
   You might find this Bureau of Mines / Minerals yearbook 1950 interesting.

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/EcoNatRes/EcoNatRes-idx?type=div&did=EcoNatRes.MinYB1950.WYoung&isize=XL

Allen Rueter


Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Dennis Storzek
 

Comment about coal tonnage thru the Twin Ports... Keep in mind that all those ore boats that went east with iron ore would be coming back empty, if it wasn't for coal, which is the reason water transport of coal on the Lakes was so cheap. Just about any port on the upper lakes that had an ore dock also had a coal wharf. Ashland, Marquette, and Escanaba certainly did. Also other ports, although they couldn't load ore directly, coal wharves in places like Green Bay, and Manitowoc paid the freight for most of the return trip. In later years C. Reiss seemed to be the big player for commercial distribution on the upper Lakes, but I know at one time they had competition, Clarkson Coal Co. had wharves in at least Superior and Ashland. Clarkson even had their own fleet of GS gons in the WWI era, 300 cars, IIRC, later sold to the Soo. Sorry, I've never looked into it far enough to have tonnage figures, but I suspect they were near the iron ore figures year by year.

Dennis Storzek  


Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Allen Rueter
 

Jim,
   You might find this Bureau of Mines / Minerals yearbook 1950 interesting.

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/EcoNatRes/EcoNatRes-idx?type=div&did=EcoNatRes.MinYB1950.WYoung&isize=XL

Allen Rueter


Re: Really interesting freight car photos today

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Thanks, Dennis, I see what you are talking about.  Always glad to be corrected when I screw up.

Were the drain grooves in the center of the boards?  Seems unlikely that the roof would be made with chamfered boards, making the grooves where the joint is.  One groove per board, or multiple?

Schuyler



---In STMFC@..., <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote :

But Gary, look at the roof itself. Left side, wood boards, right side,
Viking!
=====================

 

I'm sorry, Schuyler, by no means is that a Viking roof. Among other things, where are the seam caps?

 

What you are looking at is a wood roof where the boards are either V grooved, or milled with the water drain grooves that were common on double board roofs; from the low angle, it is hard to tell which. The half of the roof on the left side of the view has been replaced with boards that lack the milled detail, but are functionally the same. It's just a wood roof. What is interesting is the amount of material that was replaced without the decision being made to do the whole roof. That in itself is worth modeling.

 

Dennis Storzek


K brakes

Seth Lakin
 

Group I have a question regarding the dates of K brake phase out.

I know K brakes were banned from interchange in/about 1953, but when were K brakes banned from new installations and heavy rebuilds?

Thanks
Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN


Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

John,

I have also heard/read that coal was what brought Columbia to Pittsburg. According to Bert Ward's MOUNT DIABLO COAL MINE RAILROADS, coal was being commercially taken from Mt. Diablo as early as the 1850s.

The earliest was the Union mine at Somersville was one about 10 related or neighboring operations that shipped coal to Pittsburg on the Pittsburg Railroad. Operations were largely wound down by 1907, but the mines and the railroad limped along until 1916.

Black Diamond Coal and Railroad Company began operation around 1859 in the Nortonsville area. The company also shipped to Pittsburg, but was wound down in 1902 and the railroad was removed around 1911.

The final operation began around 1861, but really didn't take off until a number of years later. In 1878 the investors opened the Empire Coal Mine and Railroad Co., which ran between several mines/shafts at Stewartsville and Antioch. This operation closed down in 1897.

Railroad Historian Dan McKellips claimed the mines supplied bunker coal to Sacramento and San Joaquin river boats and it was also used on the SP ferry Contra Costa. Some was sold for industrial use in Stockton. Neither he or Ward mention coal being sold to the Columbia works.

Hope this of use.

Yours Aye,


Garth


On 2/27/17 5:42 PM, John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC] wrote:
 
Garth,

Thanks for that pointer.  I have from another source that Columbia received pig iron from the mills in Utah.   The jury is still out on coal needs prior to the end of the war.  The mill was sited in Pittsburg due to it's proximity to the local coal deposits.  As they petered out and the local coal hauling road shut down and pulled up the tracks from the right of way some form of fuel had to replace the local coal.  I have no direct evidence of coal shipments or a gas pipeline but the plant's history page shows that they started with a 150 ton open hearth furnace in 1910.

Columbia steel Pittsburg history
1910-1920
The first Pittsburg steel facility opened in 1910 as a 60-man foundry under the name of Columbia Steel. Consisting of one building and a single 150-ton open hearth, the plant furnished steel castings for the dredging, lumber and shipping industries.

In the 1920’s, the plant expanded to include the West’s first nail mill, and later, the first hot dip tin mill west of the Mississippi.
1930-1940
During the 1930’s and 1940s, facilities and equipment were added to help supply major public works projects – the most notable being the San Francisco/Oakland Bay Bridge – and to meet the demand for steel products during WWII.

Post-war expansion includes modern continuous sheet and tin mills, the West’s first continuous rod mill, cold rolling mills, electrolytic tinning, cleaning, continuous coating and annealing lines.

I can confirm that they did provide steel to the war effort but got behind on some of the orders due to the priority system.  This was noted in a history report in the national archives that referenced an Oakland manufacturer of practice bombs that had to re-order from eastern mills when Pittsburg could not make an immediate delivery mid-war.  That order was for a quantity of thin sheet that would be used for bomb blanks.  Orders for Oakland and San Francisco industries would be nearly on-layout moves for me, and that delivery was scheduled via rail.

It would be interesting to confirm the availability of gas.

John Barry




From: "Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Shipping Coal - How Far?

 
John and Friends,
This doesn't answer the question about coal for Columbia Steel, but here is some information about the plant from my old SN On-line site: http://www.wplives.org/sn/steel.html . Most of their can production was cold rolled, but they also worked steel for other uses. I have seen photos of a hot ladle from their works. It is likely that soaking pits and remelt furnaces were gas fired, as was the case of some other California remelt plants (Bethlehem Steel in Downey being one example).
Yours Aye,

Garth Groff

On 2/27/17 2:48 PM, 'Dave Nelson' Lake_Muskoka@... [STMFC] wrote:
 
I’m skeptical about Colombia Steel needing coal.

The plant did not need coal to produce coke because (AFAIK) there were no blast finances there and I’m inclined to think they did not need boiler coal either as natural gas was readily available as a fuel for any reheat jobs they had.

By and large the Colombia Steel plant produced sheet steel for the tin can industry. This product was the highest profit margin for any steel mill and it is produced by rolling cutting, and final finishing of material from steel coils. What I don’t recall right now is whether this was done by cold rolling or whether the source material was heated first. I’m inclined to guess it was cold rolled.

Colombia Steel did get a lot of steel coil, DRGW/WP/SN and they shipped their product to can making factories all over central California and perhaps beyond.

Dave Nelson

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 11:12 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Shipping Coal - How Far?

Columbia Steel at Pittsburg, CA got most of it's coal from Utah. Originating on the D&RGW, it went via WP to either Sacramento thence the Sacramento Northern or Stockton for ATSF delivery. Rio Grande had a tremendous fleet of gons (6048 in Jan 45) for hauling that coal and almost no hoppers (72, including a few covered HMRs).

Prior to the future, almost all the coal shipped from mines in the western US most likely came in a gon rather than a hopper unless it originated on the GN. They alone of the western roads had a majority of hoppers (9827) over gondolas(1711). Not that hoppers were unknown, the western lines owned 28,801 but they also owned 71,164 gondolas, 2.4 to 1, better than 3 to one outside the GN.

John Barry

On 2/26/17 8:19 PM, Tom VanWormer robsmom@... [STMFC] wrote:

Jim,
The Southern Pacific in the 1890s was shipping coal from Australia, Japan and British Columbia.
Tom VanWormer
Documenting the 1890s

jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC] wrote:

Hi,

How far would coal be shipped in hoppers? Especially as
it relates to the West Coast. I'm talking about regular
everyday coal for steam - such as to a railroad or to a
cement plant (or any other large industry such as a steel
mill or power plant).
And what was truly in control of the sourcing of coal?
Of course it was price per ton - but, for instance, how
much closer would the coal mine have to be before
the shipping costs based upon ton miles started to be
more important than how many RRs were involved in
the shipment or other factors?

For instance - where would coal for such purposes
have been shipped from - going to locations in Central
or Northern California?
I know there was coal in Utah that was being shipped
to Southern California. Other sources/locations?

Extra credit - what 'influence' did the railroad that the
industry was on have on the source of the coal in
received? For instance if you have a cement plant
in Northern California being served by the ATSF ...
where did the coal it received -probably- come from?

Steam/transition era answers only - please. I'm not
asking "what is happening today?" or "what happened
in the 70's or 80's?".
- Jim B.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

np328
 

Tim O' mentioned about wondering how much coal came in the Twin Ports.   

On Post 65627, I answer this question (how many tons came into the Twin Ports, to some degree) and provide source data. For those not inclined to look, the NP Rwy ordered 750,000 tons of coal for their own use. I know from some other letters, they from time to time supplied the CM&StP (later CMStP&P) with coal, this being around 1910+/-.  However I would think at later dates the CMStP&P might have used other sources, and 1926, the CMStP&P did exercise trackage rights over the NP (Twin Ports-Twin Cities) and started hauling their own trains, so while I have some 1926 records on CMStP&P, I only have them for that year and hesitate to project further.

The DM&N and the D&IR (later the DM&IR) both got coal off the Great Lakes for their own needs .The steel mill in the Duluth / Superior area was US Steel, the plant closed in the 60s. And the DM&IR was on of the nations last to run steam. (US Steel bought the Ford dock in Duluth for coal) .

From the paperwork I have read (and posted about - Post 83190) coal was THE largest commodity out of the Twin Ports.  There was much domestic coal going south to the Twin Cities and again, our Reverend Doug (Harding) has the M&StL Watertown waybill listings and you can find plenty of coal shipments that started from Duluth/Superior (after water). 

 From other letters, the traffic salesmen for the NP lament that the coal companies tell the NP that they are getting "their share" of the traffic and so I would imagine GN, Omaha, Soo, and Milwaukee Road all got equal parts of that pie, their tonnage mirroring the NPs. So to answer Tim O', I would say - quite a lot, and almost up to the end of this lists time frame.  

            Dave Nelson writes about coal being dirt. I am not a chemist however, of those mail order fireman's books, most of them reference Carbon as the key ingredient when they list grades of coal, with Anthracite being listed as "almost pure carbon". I petition that carbon could be a more correct term. Lignite I do recall as having much organic matter and dirt seems most appropriate.

            Dr. Bob (Heninger) posted about GN hoppers and gons.

Of the gons vs hoppers, I had posted on that, with numbers on the NP car make up on post 145704 and up until 1950, gons did outnumber hoppers by vast ratios, the hoppers being mostly ballast cars. (In 1929, on the NP, there were 5,759 gons and 98 hoppers.) The numbers in April 1950 on the NP 3,814 gons and 4,509 hoppers. I would agree with Bob on the GS nature, it did make these cars roam far and wide.

Also thanks to Charles Hostetler for his presentation (last Chicagoland?) on pig iron, for me that is a load that goes hand in hand with gons.

            Dennis S, Not sure what you meant with - "an anecdote".  Just asking about clarification. There was some 1925(?) Railway Age article that read something like "NP saves over a million dollars a year in (finding a way to use online) lignite". I will see if I can dig it up, scan it and have the Sherriff approve it. (Jeez, I hate wading through piles of railroad paper junk, most notably when they are my own piles of railroad junk.) 

George Courtney and Tony talk of brokered coal. There were yard tracks at Laurel, MT, Mandan, ND, on the NP and some also on the Soo Line in ND, where coal trickled out of mines nearby and was held till a broker found a buyer. Then it was off to the races.  

Of other coal postings - see postings 111293, 65630, and 65627.

One last comment – somewhere in my past notes I have a comment by Richard Hendrickson circa 2009 – “not coal cars again”, however I cannot seem to find it.  Has anyone compiled a roster of Richard’s wisdom, yet?  I looked through old posts of his, wow…. Glad to have known the man for the time I did.                                             Jim Dick – St. Paul


Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Nelson wrote:

 

The key point below is the absence of any mention of smelting iron ore. You need coke to do that. The mention of the Open Hearth Furnace is saying they took pig iron and by melting it and adding a bit of this and that changed the iron into a complex compound – steel. Obviously melting the iron requires a lot heat but that could be from any fuel. I’d put my money on natural gas for most of the 20th century (with the chance they used coal before the 1930’s) because there are natural gas wells in the area, including some just on the other side of the Sacramento River opposite Pittsburg.


    It's a common misconception that smelting iron from ore requires fuel. The only fuel used is at start-up, when the materials have to be gotten hot. Once the reaction between carbon (in the form of coke) and iron oxide (main part of the ore) begins, it is EXOTHERMIC and no fuel i consumed at all. The oxygen combines with the carbon, leaving iron behind, which is molten. During a furnace campaign, only very minor amounts of fuel, if any, are consumed to make up for heat losses in the furnace.
     Melting iron pigs for further processing is another story. It does require fuel, which certainly need not be coke.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Shipping Coal - How Far?

cliffprather
 

Except for the Kaiser Steel plant at Fontana and coke for foundries, I don't think that there was much demand for coal in Southern California during the stream era after the uses of fuel oil was developed. Cement plants used oil until cost of its cost jumped in the last third of the 20th century. Power plants used oil until they switched to natural gas. I believe that the export of coal to other countries through Sothern California was not important until the latter part of 20th century.


A note on routing Utah coal to Kaiser Steel at Fontana.  Coal that was shipped via UP (LA&SL) from Utah was interchanged to the Santa Fe at Barstow for deliver to Kaiser.


Clifford Prather

34601 - 34620 of 182477