Date   

Re: GN USRA boxcars, was Re: What can I model?

Bill Welch
 

Tim, here is photo of my GN Plywood model. Going on memory Andy only offered the doors and sides. In addition to DA ends it looks like I used their ladders. Mostly I used CDS Dry Transfers applied to decal substrait. An intersting detail on these cars was the used of drop grabs on the left end of the sides, the left end of which was a Bracket. For this part I used the now discontinued Overland bracket.


The other two models built from Andy's casting are also there if you look around.

Bill Welch


Re: ORERs

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <mark_landgraf@...> wrote :


It's the accountants telling operations when portions of the fleet are worthless and are at the end of their lives. After which any serious repairs cause the car to be white lined. 

Mark
=========================
But not at the time the depreciation ended, because I doubt they had to run a forty year depreciation schedule. After the car is depreciated down to it's scrap value, it's essentially free, until it needs major repairs, and those were looked at as cost of upgrades vs. potential additional life.

The fact remains, though, that the company needed to know what they owned at any given time, if for no other reason than to set the asset value of the company.

Dennis Storzek



Re: Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <rwitt_2000@...> wrote :

FWIW the NH and BAR "potato" cars from the early 1950s were classed XIH so they were considered a box car insulated with heaters. I can't recall other examples.

Bob Witt
================
The Soo Line insulated some 40' wood sheathed automobile cars in the fifties, which made them XI's; ten in 1954 for use in wet pulp service (so the bales wouldn't freeze to the cars.) and 15 in 1958 with wood plug doors(!) assigned to Campbell Soup Co.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

rwitt_2000
 

FWIW the NH and BAR "potato" cars from the early 1950s were classed XIH so they were considered a box car insulated with heaters. I can't recall other examples.

Here's a link to a NHRATA forum discussion about these cars:

http://thenhrhtanewhavenrailroadforum.yuku.com/topic/8135#.WOxTrY61tmA


Bob Witt


Re: ORERs

mark_landgraf
 

Tim

Several things come into play. We've all seen trust plates on various freight cars. In that case the bank owned the car. Many new cars from ACF, Pullman Standard, Greenville, etc were financed. Cars built by home road car shops were more typically fully owned by the railroad. The later cars would be depreciated over a 10 to 20 year depreciation schedule. Just like your personal auto, a 10 year old freight car isn't worth what you paid for it. This factors into the overall capital value of the fleet, and would have been used in the ICC Valuation of rolling stock report. Financed cars would also have been depreciated, but probably at a rate that was the same as the finance period. 

It's the accountants telling operations when portions of the fleet are worthless and are at the end of their lives. Afterwhich any serious repairs cause the car to be white lined. 

Mark

From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 9:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Reply To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: ORERs

 


Ok, Mark, you have me stumped. What does depreciation of cars have to
do with any of this?

Tim O'




 > Mark Landgraf wrote Monday, April 10, 2017 6:48 PM

 > I suspect the accountants may have driven the periodic changes in the
 > remaining cars in the fleet. While most of the cars that were coming off
 > the road were fully depreciated, there was still the need of the accountants
 > to know the periodic value of the whole fleet.



Bob

My reply was really directed to Ike's post but I had not seen it,
only your reply...

Anyway I thought of an EXCELLENT reason why ALL railroads were very interested
in the exact number of freight cars they owned - Per Diem! There had better be
an account of every single car's whereabouts at midnight every night and if they
were offline, the account had better be paid!

Tim



Re: Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

Tim O'Connor
 


Yeah, but Hershey was a huge company, that ran their own car fleet. Hop in your time machine,
try ordering an RB from the local railroad and see what you get. Dennis Storzek


Dennis

? Is that really the same question ? RB's were around in the 1930's for wine, beer, chocolate, and other
products. I don't know of any in railroad company service (were there XI's?)  but maybe there were some.

In the 1930's if you needed an insulated box car, you used a reefer most of the time. I think it was Tony (or
someone) who said that 20% or so of PFE carloadings were non-refrigerated items.

But a candy company could BUY Hershey's Chocolate - in fact, BULK cocoa and chocolates are definitely
types of product sold by Hershey's to third parties - chocolate OEM's if you will. These might arrive in HERX
RB insulated box cars.

Tim O'Connor


Re: ORERs

Tim O'Connor
 


Ok, Mark, you have me stumped. What does depreciation of cars have to
do with any of this?

Tim O'




 > Mark Landgraf wrote Monday, April 10, 2017 6:48 PM

 > I suspect the accountants may have driven the periodic changes in the
 > remaining cars in the fleet. While most of the cars that were coming off
 > the road were fully depreciated, there was still the need of the accountants
 > to know the periodic value of the whole fleet.



Bob

My reply was really directed to Ike's post but I had not seen it,
only your reply...

Anyway I thought of an EXCELLENT reason why ALL railroads were very interested
in the exact number of freight cars they owned - Per Diem! There had better be
an account of every single car's whereabouts at midnight every night and if they
were offline, the account had better be paid!

Tim


Re: Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote :


Say WHAT?? There was no such thing as an insulated box car (i.e. RB bunkerless reefer) ???

I have shots of wood sheathed steam era Hershey's RB's. The "L" refers to loading devices, which
really came into their own with forklifts and pallets. Prior to that time loads were braced or packed in
such a way to avoid load shifting.

Tim O'
=======================

Yeah, but Hershey was a huge company, that ran their own car fleet. Hop in your time machine, try ordering an RB from the local railroad and see what you get.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <vasa0vasa@...> wrote :

 

 

Would such factories have their own power plant or would they have used the local grid?  It could be a function of the age of machinery in the plant: steam v. electric? 

 

Gary Laakso thinking of candies while working on tax forms

South of Mike Brock

======================


Likely not a power plant for electric generation... and steam powered line shafts were history in the WWI era in most industries. But food processing needs lots of steam; for the cooking kettles, and also hot water and steam for cleaning the equipment. Not sure oil fired power boilers were all that common before the late fifties, and coal was available up there.


Dennis Storzek


Re: ORERs

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Tim has hit on the most important reason that railroads would care about how
many of each car class remained on their rosters: Not per diem per se, but
ACCOUNTING.



Railroads employed legions of accountants for all sorts of purposes, one of
which was to keep track of how much the railroad was worth as a going
enterprise. A lot of that assessment has to do with the physical plant,
both the stationary plant and the rolling stock. I think it was Dennis
mentioned that the ICC Valuation reports were required to be updated until
sometime in the late 50s, early 60s. In order to keep a valuation up to
date, you would have to know how many of each type of car is still a viable
investment.



And then we get into the discussion of when a car isn't covering its costs
to own. Another reason to keep tabs on the cars you have in your fleet.



But for me, the point was to find out how many cars were in service after
1950. And it turns out that this is important for a model manufacturer to
know so as to judge whether it's worth producing a model. And it was quite
effective for my purposes, thank you very much.



Too bad the Southern didn't take this more seriously. I wonder what the ICC
had to say about it.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 12:46 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: ORERs





Bob

My reply was really directed to Ike's post but I had not seen it,
only your reply...

Anyway I thought of an EXCELLENT reason why ALL railroads were very
interested
in the exact number of freight cars they owned - Per Diem! There had better
be
an account of every single car's whereabouts at midnight every night and if
they
were offline, the account had better be paid!

Tim




Tim,

You have me there. I should have said, "if it wasn't important for the
number of cars in a series to be accurate, why was it tracked in the ORER?"
My response was in reply to George Eichelberger's post of April 8, 2017.
Apparently the Southern didn't care too much about the accuracy of the
listings of cars being taken out of service. The GN did, dutifully counting
down the numbers of GN truss rod cars, despite their wholesale retirement in
the postwar years.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND


Re: Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Gary,

I would think that cream would be locally sources and would arrive via a motor carrier and not on the rails. I also do not believe that cocoa beans would require insulated shipment. Most likely these are shipped in bags. If this was coming in off of freighters at the Port of Tacoma, these may also have been shipped via motor carrier. Not knowing exactly where the candy plant was/is in relationship with the port this could also be a rather short railroad move. 

As for utilities powering the plant, I will leave that up to those that know the territory better than I.

Cheers & Happy Modeling,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA



On Apr 10, 2017, at 3:05 PM, 'gary laakso' vasa0vasa@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


The Milwaukee Road served the Brown & Haley candy factory in Tacoma, WA, a substantial building of maybe 5 stories and there is a partial picture of it on page 43 of A Northwest Rail Pictorial  II using pictures from Warren W. Wing.

 

Boxcars would have delivered bagged sugar and most other ingredients, though maybe a refrigerator car for creams.  The packaging materials would likely also be delivered by boxcars.  Assuming that this or other similar candy factories shipped out to small stores on line crates of candies, they likely would have gone REA, unless a large a distributor needed LCL service.  Flavorings could have moved via refrigerator cars returning for further loads.  Would cocoa beans be delivered in refrigerator cars acting as insulated boxcars returning to their home road?  

 

Would such factories have their own power plant or would they have used the local grid?  It could be a function of the age of machinery in the plant: steam v. electric?  

 

Gary Laakso thinking of candies while working on tax forms

South of Mike Brock




Re: ORERs

mark_landgraf
 



From: Mark Landgraf
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 6:48 PM
To: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]; STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: ORERs

I suspect the accountants may have driven the periodic changes in the remaining cars in the fleet. While most of the cars that were coming off the road were fully depreciated, there was still the need of the accountants to know the peeiodic value of the whole fleet. 

Periodic could be weekly, monthly or quarterly, depending on the rr. 

In some cases, when an aging fleet starts costing more to maintain than the revenue it can generate, certainly the accountants would start arguing for retirement. 

In 2017, our 1100 vehicle fleet, we retire a vehicle when the maintenace costs exceed 2/3 of the replacement cost. I suspect that most of the rrs had a  fleet mgt plan of some sort‎. 

Mark Landgraf
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 12:47 PM
To: STMFC@...
Reply To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: ORERs

 

Bob

My reply was really directed to Ike's post but I had not seen it,
only your reply...

Anyway I thought of an EXCELLENT reason why ALL railroads were very interested
in the exact number of freight cars they owned - Per Diem! There had better be
an account of every single car's whereabouts at midnight every night and if they
were offline, the account had better be paid!

Tim



Tim,

You have me there. I should have said, "if it wasn't important for the number of cars in a series to be accurate, why was it tracked in the ORER?" My response was in reply to George Eichelberger's post of April 8, 2017. Apparently the Southern didn't care too much about the accuracy of the listings of cars being taken out of service. The GN did, dutifully counting down the numbers of GN truss rod cars, despite their wholesale retirement in the postwar years.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND




Re: GN USRA boxcars, was Re: What can I model?

Todd Sullivan
 

Well, my 1952 ORER says the GN USRA originals and clones had the same height to the eaves, running board and top of the brake staff, and the same cuft capacity (3098).  The only difference is that I can see from the dimensions is that the clones had an extreme width 2" wider at 10'-1" and the extreme width point occurred at a different height from the rail (12'-6" vs 11'-7" on the originals).

Guess I'll wait on the ends if Andrew is working on them.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

gary laakso
 

Thanks, Tim O’!

 

Gary Laakso

south of Mike Brock

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 6:54 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

 

 

Gary

Cocoa beans did not need refrigeration or insulation. Hershey had insulated
cars for its PRODUCTS, which did need insulation. Deliveries to the candy factory
should include packaging (specialty cardboard papers), inks (for decorating candy
boxes), sugars (cane sugar or syrup, or corn syrup), fats (butter, oils), possibly
milk (for milk chocolate) and the other ingredients (chocolate, flavorings). A large
candy producer certainly could generate carloads, but LCL sounds right for a small
factory.

Tim O'

>The Milwaukee Road served the Brown & Haley candy factory in Tacoma, WA, a substantial building of maybe 5 stories and there is a partial picture of it on page 43 of A Northwest Rail Pictorial II using pictures from Warren W. Wing.
>
>Boxcars would have delivered bagged sugar and most other ingredients, though maybe a refrigerator car for creams. The packaging materials would likely also be delivered by boxcars. Assuming that this or other similar candy factories shipped out to small stores on line crates of candies, they likely would have gone REA, unless a large a distributor needed LCL service. Flavorings could have moved via refrigerator cars returning for further loads. Would cocoa beans be delivered in refrigerator cars acting as insulated boxcars returning to their home road?
>
>Would such factories have their own power plant or would they have used the local grid? It could be a function of the age of machinery in the plant: steam v. electric?
>
>Gary Laakso thinking of candies while working on tax forms
>South of Mike Brock


Re: GN USRA boxcars, was Re: What can I model?

Todd Sullivan
 

Tim O' wrote:

Does Accurail offer its USRA DS box car with 7/8 ends??

I don't know if Accurail does, but Westerfield offers a 7/8 corrugated end that looks like it should fit their USRA DS kit.  I'm going to try those soon to see if they do.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

Tim O'Connor
 


Say WHAT?? There was no such thing as an insulated box car (i.e. RB bunkerless reefer) ???

I have shots of wood sheathed steam era Hershey's RB's. The "L" refers to loading devices, which
really came into their own with forklifts and pallets. Prior to that time loads were braced or packed in
such a way to avoid load shifting.

Tim O'




Jeff,

I would think heat in the summer melting the bars was more of an issue than shelf life.   RBL cars did not yet exist.  Reefers where used to keep the contents cool just from all the insulation.  Express reefers reduced the likelyhood of the car standing in multiple yards and the load being lost.

Rich Orr


Re: Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

SUVCWORR@...
 

Jeff,

I would think heat in the summer melting the bars was more of an issue than shelf life.   RBL cars did not yet exist.  Reefers where used to keep the contents cool just from all the insulation.  Express reefers reduced the likelyhood of the car standing in multiple yards and the load being lost.

Rich Orr



Re: Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

Jeffrey White
 

Gary,

I can't speak for Brown and Haley, but I've done a lot of research on Hollywood Brands Candy in Centralia, IL. They made the $100,000 bar and I think the Zero candy bar.�

It was built in a large building that was previously an envelope factory.� It was served by the IC and it had it's own power plant.� I have a photograph of express reefers spotted at the plant in the era covered by this list.�� I have been unable to find out if they routinely shipped the product in express reefers though.� I don't know what the shelf life of the candy was in those days.� Perhaps it had to go by express service?

Jeff White

Alma, IL


On 4/10/2017 5:05 PM, 'gary laakso' vasa0vasa@... [STMFC] wrote:
�

The Milwaukee Road served the Brown & Haley candy factory in Tacoma, WA, a substantial building of maybe 5 stories and there is a partial picture of it on page 43 of A Northwest Rail Pictorial� II using pictures from Warren W. Wing.

�

Boxcars would have delivered bagged sugar and most other ingredients, though maybe a refrigerator car for creams.� The packaging materials would likely also be delivered by boxcars.� Assuming that this or other similar candy factories shipped out to small stores on line crates of candies, they likely would have gone REA, unless a large a distributor needed LCL service.� Flavorings could have moved via refrigerator cars returning for further loads.� Would cocoa beans be delivered in refrigerator cars acting as insulated boxcars returning to their home road?�

�

Would such factories have their own power plant or would they have used the local grid?� It could be a function of the age of machinery in the plant: steam v. electric?�

�

Gary Laakso thinking of candies while working on tax forms

South of Mike Brock



Re: Car Types for a Brown & Haley Candy Factory

Tim O'Connor
 

Gary

Cocoa beans did not need refrigeration or insulation. Hershey had insulated
cars for its PRODUCTS, which did need insulation. Deliveries to the candy factory
should include packaging (specialty cardboard papers), inks (for decorating candy
boxes), sugars (cane sugar or syrup, or corn syrup), fats (butter, oils), possibly
milk (for milk chocolate) and the other ingredients (chocolate, flavorings). A large
candy producer certainly could generate carloads, but LCL sounds right for a small
factory.

Tim O'

The Milwaukee Road served the Brown & Haley candy factory in Tacoma, WA, a substantial building of maybe 5 stories and there is a partial picture of it on page 43 of A Northwest Rail Pictorial II using pictures from Warren W. Wing.

Boxcars would have delivered bagged sugar and most other ingredients, though maybe a refrigerator car for creams. The packaging materials would likely also be delivered by boxcars. Assuming that this or other similar candy factories shipped out to small stores on line crates of candies, they likely would have gone REA, unless a large a distributor needed LCL service. Flavorings could have moved via refrigerator cars returning for further loads. Would cocoa beans be delivered in refrigerator cars acting as insulated boxcars returning to their home road?

Would such factories have their own power plant or would they have used the local grid? It could be a function of the age of machinery in the plant: steam v. electric?

Gary Laakso thinking of candies while working on tax forms
South of Mike Brock


Re: ORERs

mark_landgraf
 

I suspect the accountants may have driven the periodic changes in the remaining cars in the fleet. While most of the cars that were coming off the road were fully depreciated, there was still the need of the accountants to know the peeiodic value of the whole fleet. 

Periodic could be weekly, monthly or quarterly, depending on the rr. 

In some cases, when an aging fleet starts costing more to maintain than the revenue it can generate, certainly the accountants would start arguing for retirement. 

In 2017, our 1100 vehicle fleet, we retire a vehicle when the maintenace costs exceed 2/3 of the replacement cost. I suspect that most of the rrs had a  fleet mgt plan of some sort‎. 

Mark Landgraf
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 12:47 PM
To: STMFC@...
Reply To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: ORERs

 

Bob

My reply was really directed to Ike's post but I had not seen it,
only your reply...

Anyway I thought of an EXCELLENT reason why ALL railroads were very interested
in the exact number of freight cars they owned - Per Diem! There had better be
an account of every single car's whereabouts at midnight every night and if they
were offline, the account had better be paid!

Tim



Tim,

You have me there. I should have said, "if it wasn't important for the number of cars in a series to be accurate, why was it tracked in the ORER?" My response was in reply to George Eichelberger's post of April 8, 2017. Apparently the Southern didn't care too much about the accuracy of the listings of cars being taken out of service. The GN did, dutifully counting down the numbers of GN truss rod cars, despite their wholesale retirement in the postwar years.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND


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