Date   

Re: using blue flags

Tony Thompson
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:

 
The blue flag decals mentioned in Tony's blog were from:

 

DM Custom Decals
Donald Manlick
2127 South 11th Street
Manitowoc, WI 54220
920-684-8688

 

I tried calling several times but after the phone was answered I was cut-off. Maybe someone else will have better luck.

  Yes, I added a comment to my modeling post, identifying Don. In fact, Don passed away in February 2015 and the existing stock of decals was auctioned off. But I have not been able to find out whether the artwork survives and if it is in use by anyone. The reach of this list might be great enough to turn up an answer.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954

Tony Thompson
 

Fenton Wells wrote:

 
Gentlemen, I'm no freight car expert but the two Warren cars appear to be different.  One appears to be insulated (Obviously a Sunshine  kit;>) With the black or dark lower band while the other appears to be non insulated and no dark band at the bottom.  I'm assuming Warren had both types.

    The term "dark lower band" is a good visual description, but be aware it is in fact the entire lower sheet of the (removable) jacket over the insulation. This was commonly painted black.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Shipping Steel by rail in 1955

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Steve,

Not mid-western roads, but the Denver & Rio Grande Western, Western Pacific and Sacramento Northern were handling coil for U.S. Steel from Geneva, Utah, to Pittsburg, California, at least as early as 1945. They used whatever D&RGW or WP gondolas available, originally with disposable wooden blocking. There are photos showing WP and D&RGW Greenville 53' mill gondolas, WP 65' mill gondolas, steel D&RGW GS drop-bottom gondolas, and the WP's composite drop-bottom cars. In 1953, the WP took delivery of 100 29' mill gondolas from Greenville specifically designed for coil service. These saved dead weight from the center of longer cars since the coils were generally loaded in the ends over the trucks anyway. In the mid-1950s these short cars received permanent coil racks.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 5/1/17 11:11 AM, no1detail@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Good morning group, our group was discussing shipping steel by rail Sunday.  We've all see coiled steel in gondolas in the present day and as far back as the 60's.  But none of us can remember seeing coiled steel in gondolas around 1955.  I've been searching online but with no luck.  We are all midwest to western modelers if that makes any difference.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you
Steven E. Cerka




Re: [Non-DoD Source] Shipping Steel by rail in 1955

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Oh, and to add to the earlier message, there are a lot of misconceptions about steel coil loading. Steel could be highly protected (as far as early technology was concerned, or all the way to basically unprotected at all. Labor was cheap, and you could hire people cheaply to remove rust and oil (used to protect from rusting).

There were few to no "dedicated" steel coil cars until the mid-fifties, and since most of it moved in box cars, the times you see coil is in loading and unloading. Coil was loaded into box cars by driving a forklift over a loading platform, driving it to the end of the car, and leaving it, eye-first (latitudinally) up to the car end. The coils were then roughly blocked in place to prevent tipping or sideways rolling. This habit was extremely destructive to car sides (and ends). The coils were very large, and rolled or tipped easily. I have photos from 1938 that show destroyed car interiors on the PRR. PRR rebuilt box cars as "dedicated" interior lined cars in 1938. They are the first I can find record of. I have never seen a photo of one of those classes stenciled, but suspect they were in dedicated service. The largest coils in that service look to be about 48" in diameter.

The industry's pleas for cars that could handle even larger coils, specifically the 72" coil, led to the development of the true dedicated "coil car".

That is another story...

Sadly, no one makes an accurate kit or otherwise, of an early coil gon. Not even early coils and racks. I have had to make all mine one way or another.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 12:29 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [Non-DoD Source] [STMFC] Shipping Steel by rail in 1955



Steven;

Coil up to around 1955 was shipped in either box cars, in the case of cold-rolled finished sheet, or commonly uncovered in gons with 3 or so over each truck, in the case of unfinished hot-rolled sheet. A lot of experiments were conducted from late forties, through mid-fifties, to see if they could come up with the means to top load (as opposed to box car use) either gons or flats, first using things like treated kraft paper or canvas tarpaulins, to cover the new larger, heavier coils. None of that worked very well. Early designs of either floating or fixed racks or skids were pretty primitive and required much disposable blocking and/or untested skid designs. From about 1954 on, the RRs started was design war of competing designs, most using skids and covers, of which there were many patents floated. NKP was a big practitioner of early coil accommodation. Smaller coils were accommodated by re-construction of gons to include raised sides and removable roofs. There are many photo s out there, but they take some time to find.

I am slowly putting together an article or two on this subject, and have been researching it for a while. There is also a bit on this in the PRR gon book.

Let me know if you have further questions. I do have some more photos. BTW, ATSF, CB&Q, WP, and other mid-to-western roads were interested.

Elden Gatwood


-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 11:11 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [STMFC] Shipping Steel by rail in 1955



Good morning group, our group was discussing shipping steel by rail Sunday. We've all see coiled steel in gondolas in the present day and as far back as the 60's. But none of us can remember seeing coiled steel in gondolas around 1955. I've been searching online but with no luck. We are all midwest to western modelers if that makes any difference. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you
Steven E. Cerka







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Shipping Steel by rail in 1955

Al Kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

The C&O's designs were either based on Evans Products' in Plymouth, Michigan, or their Wyoming Shops outside of Grand Rapids, Michigan.  The baseline for their evaluations were the spring-loaded PRR skid systems inserted into low-sided gondola cars.  They initially wanted to use canvas tarps on hoops . . . but ran into union-issues at the mills.  Steel covers could be removed or installed by the SAME CRANE OPERATORS AS HANDLING THE COILS . . . instead of adding more laborers.


C&O rans coils between Gary, Indiana, Burns harbors, etc. and Grand Rapids, Flint and Detroit.


Al


Pictures o the early system are in COHS Digital Archives.

On May 1, 2017 at 12:28 PM "'Gatwood, Elden J CIV CESAW CESAD (US)' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Steven;

Coil up to around 1955 was shipped in either box cars, in the case of cold-rolled finished sheet, or commonly uncovered in gons with 3 or so over each truck, in the case of unfinished hot-rolled sheet. A lot of experiments were conducted from late forties, through mid-fifties, to see if they could come up with the means to top load (as opposed to box car use) either gons or flats, first using things like treated kraft paper or canvas tarpaulins, to cover the new larger, heavier coils. None of that worked very well. Early designs of either floating or fixed racks or skids were pretty primitive and required much disposable blocking and/or untested skid designs. From about 1954 on, the RRs started was design war of competing designs, most using skids and covers, of which there were many patents floated. NKP was a big practitioner of early coil accommodation. Smaller coils were accommodated by re-construction of gons to include raised sides and removable roofs. There are many photos out there, but they take some time to find.

I am slowly putting together an article or two on this subject, and have been researching it for a while. There is also a bit on this in the PRR gon book.

Let me know if you have further questions. I do have some more photos. BTW, ATSF, CB&Q, WP, and other mid-to-western roads were interested.

Elden Gatwood


-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 11:11 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [STMFC] Shipping Steel by rail in 1955



Good morning group, our group was discussing shipping steel by rail Sunday. We've all see coiled steel in gondolas in the present day and as far back as the 60's. But none of us can remember seeing coiled steel in gondolas around 1955. I've been searching online but with no luck. We are all midwest to western modelers if that makes any difference. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you
Steven E. Cerka







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 


Re: using blue flags

thecitrusbelt@...
 

The blue flag decals mentioned in Tony's blog were from:

 

DM Custom Decals

Donald Manlick

2127 South 11th Street
Manitowoc, WI 54220

920-684-8688

 

I tried calling several times but after the phone was answered I was cut-off. Maybe someone else will have better luck.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954

Bill Welch
 

Kadee is doing a Warren car soon, albeit with silver lettering: https://kadee.com/month/future/9010l.jpg

Bill Welch


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Shipping Steel by rail in 1955

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Steven;

Coil up to around 1955 was shipped in either box cars, in the case of cold-rolled finished sheet, or commonly uncovered in gons with 3 or so over each truck, in the case of unfinished hot-rolled sheet. A lot of experiments were conducted from late forties, through mid-fifties, to see if they could come up with the means to top load (as opposed to box car use) either gons or flats, first using things like treated kraft paper or canvas tarpaulins, to cover the new larger, heavier coils. None of that worked very well. Early designs of either floating or fixed racks or skids were pretty primitive and required much disposable blocking and/or untested skid designs. From about 1954 on, the RRs started was design war of competing designs, most using skids and covers, of which there were many patents floated. NKP was a big practitioner of early coil accommodation. Smaller coils were accommodated by re-construction of gons to include raised sides and removable roofs. There are many photos out there, but they take some time to find.

I am slowly putting together an article or two on this subject, and have been researching it for a while. There is also a bit on this in the PRR gon book.

Let me know if you have further questions. I do have some more photos. BTW, ATSF, CB&Q, WP, and other mid-to-western roads were interested.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 11:11 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [STMFC] Shipping Steel by rail in 1955



Good morning group, our group was discussing shipping steel by rail Sunday. We've all see coiled steel in gondolas in the present day and as far back as the 60's. But none of us can remember seeing coiled steel in gondolas around 1955. I've been searching online but with no luck. We are all midwest to western modelers if that makes any difference. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you
Steven E. Cerka


Re: BLI NYC USRA Steel Box Car Corrections Needed

Mark.Rossiter@...
 

Michael, Andy Sperandeo did a little blog on modifying the unusual BLI trick mounting arrangement in order to substitute trucks from Tahoe Model Works, etc.  These cars are notorious for the running boards/roof walks popping loose, so there was some discussion about using Canopy Cement to solve that problem.  I'll look around for Andy's blog later tonight. 


Mark Rossiter


Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954

Richard Townsend
 

AHM made a model tank car whose tank is a good starting point for modeling these cars. They show up regularly on eBay. I just checked and two are there now. One is lettered for Gulf and the other for Jack Frost, for those who want to see the models. Kaminski's ACF and tank car books have a few photos of these cars.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Gatwood, Elden J CIV CESAW CESAD (US)' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC] (US)' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, May 1, 2017 7:26 am
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954

 
Fenton;

Bruce is indeed correct. That is a c.'55-'60 ACF welded jacket and frame tank car. You can tell by the rounded stub end sill typical for ACF products of that time. It also has the rounded insulated tank ends they did typically for their more-"standardized" products.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 9:59 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [STMFC] Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954

Fenton,

I think that the second car is in fact insulated. If you look closely, you can see the tank bands appear to disappear just about the turnbuckles. That car is much newer.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
Blockedhttps://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

On May 1, 2017, at 7:59 AM, O Fenton Wells srrfan1401@... <mailto:srrfan1401@...>; [STMFC] <STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC@...>; > wrote:

Gentlemen, I'm no freight car expert but the two Warren cars appear to be different. One appears to be insulated (Obviously a Sunshine kit;>) With the black or dark lower band while the other appears to be non insulated and no dark band at the bottom. I'm assuming Warren had both types.

Blockedhttps://farm9.staticflickr.com/8750/28004957510_666dfbfac9_k.jpg https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8750/28004957510_666dfbfac9_k.jpg>;


Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954

gary laakso
 

It appears that Fenton,  is in fact, a freight car expert and that he was trying to disguise his skills, to no avail.  Should his nick name be “Warren”?

 

Gary Laakso

south of Mike Brock

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 10:26 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954

 

 

Fenton;

Bruce is indeed correct. That is a c.'55-'60 ACF welded jacket and frame tank car. You can tell by the rounded stub end sill typical for ACF products of that time. It also has the rounded insulated tank ends they did typically for their more-"standardized" products.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 9:59 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [STMFC] Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954

Fenton,

I think that the second car is in fact insulated. If you look closely, you can see the tank bands appear to disappear just about the turnbuckles. That car is much newer.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
Blockedhttps://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

On May 1, 2017, at 7:59 AM, O Fenton Wells srrfan1401@... <mailto:srrfan1401@...> [STMFC] <STMFC@... > > wrote:

Gentlemen, I'm no freight car expert but the two Warren cars appear to be different. One appears to be insulated (Obviously a Sunshine kit;>) With the black or dark lower band while the other appears to be non insulated and no dark band at the bottom. I'm assuming Warren had both types.

Blockedhttps://farm9.staticflickr.com/8750/28004957510_666dfbfac9_k.jpg


Re: BLI NYC USRA Steel Box Car Corrections Needed

Donald B. Valentine
 




---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote :


I have done a bit of work on a BLI NYC steel box car with 7/8 ends and seem to recall past remarks in this group on the "troubles" with these cars.  I know NYC did many rebuilds of these with new roofs and running boards, but apart from being unable to match a specific BLI road number with the "proper" roof or running board for a specific period, what are the most egregious details on the out-of-box model that need to be corrected?

Michael Gross

--------------------------

Michael,

As far as I have learned, the models are good for NYC - although someone mentioned
that they may represent a modernized car (?) Anyway, here are some previous references
from old emails -

   In the October 2006, RMC, Essential Freight Car article #34, NYC USRA design box cars,
   there is a table that lists all of the cars, and their similarities/differences.
   - Aaron Gjermundson

   That information is also in the roster in my
March, 2007 Railmodel Journal article
   on these cars. The only Spec. 486 box cars that had Dreadnaught ends were those built
   in 1927: 1,000 cars for the Big Four (later absorbed into the NYC roster), 50 cars
   for the Peoria & Eastern, and 1,000 cars for the NYC itself. So that's 2,050 cars
   out of almost 21,000, approximately one in ten. All the other cars had 7-8 corrugated
   ends. - Richard Hendrickson

I hope that helps a little

Tim O'Connor



    I've been pretty happy with the BLI NYC cars as modeled. If BLI were to modify them at
all I have supplied them with the changes needed, and photos, to get very nearly correct
DL&W and Reading prototypes out of these same models. Different ends, different doors 
but little else is required. Getting Bob Grubba, BLI's president, to move on almost any
change or improvement, however, is about as much fun as kicking a fire hydrant. In
addition, I write "very nearly correct" because I know some fellows on this list have little to 
do other than nit pick every new model to death. Perhaps they need to be reminded that 
we are dealing with injection molded styrene models for the masses rather than expensive,
imported brass models for the few who can still afford them.

Cordially, Don Valentine



Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks Bruce I love the tank cars but am not a student of same.

On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 9:58 AM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Fenton,

I think that the second car is in fact insulated.  If you look closely, you can see the tank bands appear to disappear just about the turnbuckles.  That car is much newer.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith            
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

 
On May 1, 2017, at 7:59 AM, O Fenton Wells srrfan1401@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Gentlemen, I'm no freight car expert but the two Warren cars appear to be different.  One appears to be insulated (Obviously a Sunshine  kit;>) With the black or dark lower band while the other appears to be non insulated and no dark band at the bottom.  I'm assuming Warren had both types.




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Shipping Steel by rail in 1955

Steven Cerka
 

Good morning group, our group was discussing shipping steel by rail Sunday.  We've all see coiled steel in gondolas in the present day and as far back as the 60's.  But none of us can remember seeing coiled steel in gondolas around 1955.  I've been searching online but with no luck.  We are all midwest to western modelers if that makes any difference.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you
Steven E. Cerka



Re: using blue flags

Eric Hansmann
 

Here's another take on modeling blue flags and using them in operating
sessions. This was posted last June on the DesignBuildOp blog.

http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/2016/06/24/blue-flags/



Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX


Re: BLI NYC USRA Steel Box Car Corrections Needed

Bruce Smith
 

Michael,

Richard Hendrickson worked with BLI on these cars, and for a post-WWII NYC car, I believe that they are very accurate.  I think most of our past discussion focused on the roofs and metal running boards for cars that might be backdated. I looked at some of the past threads and I can’t find any that found real faults.  You mention the roof.  Richard indicated that 90% of the cars had the 7/8 ends so that seems a good “fleet” choice ;)

Note that you can search the archives to find the discussions, although Yehaw doesn’t make it easy.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Apr 30, 2017, at 11:35 PM, ActorMichaelGross@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

I have done a bit of work on a BLI NYC steel box car with 7/8 ends and seem to recall past remarks in this group on the "troubles" with these cars.  I know NYC did many rebuilds of these with new roofs and running boards, but apart from being unable to match a specific BLI road number with the "proper" roof or running board for a specific period, what are the most egregious details on the out-of-box model that need to be corrected?

Thanks, in advance, for any help.

Michael Gross


Boxcar travels, was Looking for Box Car Advert.

Bruce Smith
 

Phil,

It is important to understand that for the period of this list, the railroads did not “control” the loading and routing of their general service boxcars.  This was controlled by the car service rules. Those rules were intended to load home road cars or foreign cars headed in the direction of home preferentially.  Railroads were also under some pressure to either load or get empty foreign road cars off their rails due to per diem charges. Note that I said “in the direction of home” above and that could be interpreted somewhat loosely.  Additionally, at the level of the local office, looking for a car to satisfy a customer, these rules were often regarded, much like the pirate book of rules, more as suggestions, than law ;)  A consequence of this was that general service boxcars traveled widely on US rails, giving the impression of being “free rollers”, although that wasn’t 100% true. Both the Monon and PRR had public relations campaigns centered on the travels of one of their boxcars.

The observations above are the distillation of many, many discussions on this list regarding boxcar distribution. We often refer to what I have described as the “Nelson-Gilbert” model, named after two individuals on this list. HOWEVER, it is important to realize that the N-G model does not apply to home road cars, special service cars, cars in dedicated service, individual trains, or any car type other than boxcars (or flat cars).  In addition, if you are using the model to predict traffic for a model railroad, it does not do as well on more lightly traveled branch lines as it does on main lines.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On May 1, 2017, at 12:43 AM, clark3332003@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


When did boxcars become common user?

Phil 'expat limey' Clark, Catarman, N. Samar, Philippines. 


Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Fenton;

Bruce is indeed correct. That is a c.'55-'60 ACF welded jacket and frame tank car. You can tell by the rounded stub end sill typical for ACF products of that time. It also has the rounded insulated tank ends they did typically for their more-"standardized" products.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 9:59 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [STMFC] Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954



Fenton,

I think that the second car is in fact insulated. If you look closely, you can see the tank bands appear to disappear just about the turnbuckles. That car is much newer.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
Blockedhttps://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On May 1, 2017, at 7:59 AM, O Fenton Wells @srrfan <mailto:@srrfan> [STMFC] <STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC@...> > wrote:


Gentlemen, I'm no freight car expert but the two Warren cars appear to be different. One appears to be insulated (Obviously a Sunshine kit;>) With the black or dark lower band while the other appears to be non insulated and no dark band at the bottom. I'm assuming Warren had both types.


Blockedhttps://farm9.staticflickr.com/8750/28004957510_666dfbfac9_k.jpg <Blockedhttps://farm9.staticflickr.com/8750/28004957510_666dfbfac9_k.jpg>


WP automobile box car upgrades

Eric Hansmann
 

Pete Hall upgraded a pair of HO scale plastic box car kits to reflect Western Pacific prototyeps. He shares his techniques in the latest post on the Resin Car Works blog. 

http://blog.resincarworks.com/upgrading-a-western-pacific-50-foot-automobile-box-car/



Eric Hansmann
RCW web guy


Re: Warren Tank Cars In-train in 1954

Bruce Smith
 

Fenton,

I think that the second car is in fact insulated.  If you look closely, you can see the tank bands appear to disappear just about the turnbuckles.  That car is much newer.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith            
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

 

On May 1, 2017, at 7:59 AM, O Fenton Wells srrfan1401@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Gentlemen, I'm no freight car expert but the two Warren cars appear to be different.  One appears to be insulated (Obviously a Sunshine  kit;>) With the black or dark lower band while the other appears to be non insulated and no dark band at the bottom.  I'm assuming Warren had both types.