Date   

Re: Kits are now for sale

Dave Parker
 

Jonathan:

Thanks so much for your thorough and detailed narrative about the origins (and later fate) of the CP auto cars.

With my ORERs spanning 1926 to 1945, I had worked out most of what happened to the 600 cars in the 297500 and 297800 series, but you filled in some key details while also shedding light on what, for me, is the "distant future".

One comment concerning the 500 similar cars built in 1921-22 (297000 series).  In my 1926 and 1930 ORERs, these too have an IL of 10-0 and a CU FT of 3442.  The IL of 10-1 and CU FT of 3471 first appears in my 1935 edition.  So, in at least some of the early ORERs, the interior dimensions of the two groups of cars are the same, a possible source of confusion.  I would note that the external dimensions are consistently different across the two groups of cars, reflecting their different origins that you enumerate.

Last, just a reminder that there should be a fourth door configuration available (Pierre has promised!):  the original 10-0 doors that will be a welcome sight for us pre-1936 modelers.

Thanks again for your efforts here.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 7:47 PM, "'Jonathan McConathy' jothsue@... [STMFC]"


 
I hope the group excuses me for not being on the eight-ball with the following information. Having researched (still a work in progress sorting the variations and many subseries reported in ORERs from the 1920s to the 1970s ) CPR’s 1,100, 1920s-built steel frame automobile cars for years now, I want to pass on some of my findings relevant to Yarmouth Model Works’ exquisite new offering.  
Between late 1923 through 1924, the Canadian Pacific built 600 cars to this design in two orders at the railway’s Angus Shops in Montreal. The 1923-built, 300-car, 297500-297799 series (E.O. 2051) and the 1924-built, 300-car, 297800-298099 series (E.O. 2094)  would continue to be listed separately in ensuing ORERs up until sometime in the late 1940s (my insight ends with the July 1947 ORER) . By the April 1951 ORER, the two series had been combined and listed as the single 297500-298099 series. As built, both series were identical, featuring an offset 10’-opening, Murphy X.L.A. roof, 5/5/5 inverted Murphy ends, deep fishbelly centersill, fishbelly sidesill, and arch bar trucks.  The car’s interior dimensions: Length- 40'6", Width - 8'6", Height- 10'0".
Let me take a moment here to emphasize differences between these cars and an earlier design of CPR steel frame automobile cars, which are often conflated. Between 1921 and 1922, 500 cars were ordered from Angus shops (85 cars built in 1921 [E.O. 1708] were subsequently combined with the 415 ordered in 1922 [E.O. 1954] into a single series 297000-297499). These 500 CPR auto cars featured a Hutchins Dry Lading roof, 5/5/7 (3-panel, top-to-bottom) Murphy ends, straight centersill, Andrews trucks and a distinctive stepped sidesill reinforcement.  These cars features nearly identical interior dimensions as those of the 1923-1924 production series, save the height measuring 10’1”.     
Now, back to the cars pertaining to the kit.
During the mid-1930s, hundreds of cars were withdrawn from the two 1923/24 production series, shopped with larger door openings and reassigned to two new subseries described below.  All of the remaining cars in the 297500-298099 series retained their 10’ door openings through at-least 1951, but no later than 1954 (my insight ends with 176 cars listed in the April 1951 ORER and does not pick up again until 1954). By the January 1954 ORER, the remaining cars were shopped with 13’-6’ openings and other updates and entered into yet another subseries (see 1950s 297700-297899 subseries).
296800-296899: This 100-car subseries was shopped in 1934 with a 12’ width opening. This required the removal of the second diagonal hat-brace to accommodate the new auxiliary door, which was now wider than the main door. There is no ORER or M.P. 14 data that indicate any other improvements during the remainder of the 1930s, but in later years select cars received brake and truck upgrades. In 1952, 81 of the remaining 97 cars were removed from the 296800 series, shopped and renumbered in the 297300-297399 series and re-built with diagonal panel roofs, steel running boards, A/B brakes (AJAX hand brake), and cast steel frame trucks (if not already improved). The installation of the diagonal panel roof resulted in increased interior height of 10’6”. The remaining cars retained their “as-built” Murphy XLA roofs and were assigned to the 40237-40250 series in 1956 (14 Cars listed in the Oct. 1956 ORER).
296300-296599: This 300-car subseries was shopped between 1936 and 1938 with 13’3” doors.  The July 1935 ORER recorded 498 cars remaining in the 1923/24 production series equipped with 10’ wide doors, which were becoming quite antiquated as automobile designs grew proportionally larger during the 1930s.  Photo evidence confirms that the auxiliary doors on cars with 13’-3” openings abutted the second vertical steel brace and no further because otherwise the auxiliary door would interfere with the grab irons.   
Canadian Pacific’s 1941 M.P. 14 lists 50 cars from this subseries as having been equipped with cast steel side frames with the other 250 cars presumably retaining their original arch bar trucks.  There is no ORER or M.P. 14 data that suggest any other improvements during this period, but in 1950, 200 cars were withdrawn from this series and shopped with diagonal panel roofs, steel running boards, A/B brakes and cast steel frame trucks and renumbered into the 299600-299799 series, leaving just 96 cars in the 296300 subseries. In 1952, 43 of the remaining 95 cars were shopped with the same improvements and entered into the 297400-297448 subseries. In 1956, the remaining cars in the subseries transitioned to the 4XXXX? Series (looking for photos of cars in the 40000-40047 series).
Finally, the last CPR series of cars that can be modelled is the short-lived 177-car 297700-297899 subseries, which was created in 1954 and for all intents and purposes, lasted a mere two years (only five remaining in 1956).  The 297700 series was drawn from the as-built 1923-1924 production series previously mentioned.  It’s also imperative to note that this series’ number range occupies part of the as-built 1923-1924 series’ number range, which by the January 1954 ORER had been abbreviated to 297500-297699 in order to make room for the new series. This series was shopped with a 13’-6” door openings, but according to the Jan.1954, Jan.1955 and Oct.1956 ORERs, this series maintained its as-built Murphy XLA roof, making it a candidate for this kit.
To summarize, here are the series that can be modelled (consistent with the unimproved Murphy XLA roof):   
CP 296800-296899 series with 12” wide door openings: 100 cars in 1934, 97 in 1951, 14 in 1954, and gone by 1956.
CP 296300-296599 series with 13’3” wide openings : 32 cars in 1936, 300 in 1938, 296 in 1944, 96 in 1951, 52 in 1954 and 2 in 1956.
CP 297700-297899 series with 13’6”openings: 177 cars in 1954, 5 in 1956 and gone by 1958.
CP  40237-40250 series, née 1934 296800-296899 series (above) with 12” door openings (15 cars): 14 cars in 1956, still 14 in 1962, 9 in 1964, 4 in 1968 and 2 in 1977.
 
Jonathan McConathy



Re: Santa Fe Caswell gondola question

Jon Miller
 

On 6/7/2017 9:56 PM, harperandbrown@... [STMFC] wrote:

The IM Ga-2 model I have has a wood floor with the boards running the length of the car.  Isn't that unusual for car floors?

    I don't know that answer.  Would be good to have a photo of the inside of these cars.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Photo wanted

Bruce Smith
 

Bill,

It’s a D&H thing - Leonor F. Loree was an engineer who was president of the D&H from 1907 to 1938.  He was also president of the B&O (1901-04), CRI&P (1904), KCS (1918-1920) and chairman of the MKT (1926-28).  He was know for encouraging innovative engineering approaches.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jun 8, 2017, at 9:21 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



My Mistake Ben. Have no idea what "Loree-era" means.

Bill Welch




Re: Photo wanted

Bill Welch
 

My Mistake Ben. Have no idea what "Loree-era" means.

Bill Welch


Re: Photo wanted

Benjamin Hom
 

Bill Welch wrote:
"Actually the only Hopper/Gondola combination F&C offers is their Kansas City Southern kit."

Not true.  Funaro offers three Loree-era D&H composite hopper-bottom gons.  These have been in their line since the mid-1980s.

These cars were on their way out by the transition era (< 10 of each type by 1950 IIRC), but have that funky throwback Loree-era vibe shared by the original configuration Seley hoppers.


Ben Hom


  


Re: Photo wanted

Benjamin Hom
 

Jared  Harper asked: 
"Can anyone provide a prototype photo of the hopper/gon that F&C offers in kit form?  I would appreciate it."

Staffan Ehnbom replied:
"If it is the KCS hopper gon there are photos and drawings on pages 272-273 in Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 5."

I see now - synapses weren't all firing at once at 0400.

See also "All Welded Hopper-Gon - Unique to the KCS" by Martin Lofton in the January 1991 issue of Mainline Modeler.


Ben Hom


Re: Photo wanted

Bill Welch
 

Actually the only Hopper/Gondola combination F&C offers is their Kansas City Southern kit.

Bill Welch


Re: Photo wanted

Staffan Ehnbom
 

If it is the KCS hopper gon there are photos and drawings on pages 272-273 in Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 5.

Staffan Ehnbom

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Jared Harper harperandbrown@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Can anyone provide a prototype photo of the hopper/gon that F&C offers in kit form?
I would appreciate it.

Jared Harper



Re: Photo wanted

Benjamin Hom
 

Jared Harper asked:
"Can anyone provide a prototype photo of the hopper/gon that F&C offers in kit form?
I would appreciate it."

Could you be more specific? Funaro makes a bunch of hopper and gon kits.


Ben Hom


Photo wanted

Jared Harper
 

Can anyone provide a prototype photo of the hopper/gon that F&C offers in kit form?
I would appreciate it.

Jared Harper


Re: Ertl cars

Jared Harper
 

I wouldn't be interested in these.

Jared Harper


---In STMFC@..., <smithbf@...> wrote :

Clark,

The Ertl flat is the same prototype as the Tichy flat, an NC&St.L. car and several of the other road names offered are correct such as ACL, SP&S 

The gondola is an MEC or ACL prototype.

Lots of discussion on both in the archives.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jun 7, 2017, at 2:50 PM, cepropst@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



A friend was in Omaha looking in antique stores...I don’t know why? He picked up three Ertl cars for five bucks each on my behalf. So now I own a box car, gondola and flat car. What to do with the box car’s a no brainer, but I don’t know much about the other two cars. I looked in my RMJ index and only saw reference to the box car. So, I have to ask - what are some prototypes for the gon and flat, or would someone like to buy them? I can bring them to St L.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa




Re: Ertl cars

Jared Harper
 

Ben,

If I knew the prototypes I might be interested.

Jared Harper


---In STMFC@..., <b.hom@...> wrote :

Clark Propst asked:
"A friend was in Omaha looking in antique stores...I don’t know why? He picked up three Ertl cars for five bucks each on my behalf. So now I own a box car, gondola and flat car. What to do with the box car’s a no brainer, but I don’t know much about the other two cars. I looked in my RMJ index and only saw reference to the box car. So, I have to ask - what are some prototypes for the gon and flat, or would someone like to buy them? I can bring them to St L."

The flat is the same prototype as the Tichy flat.  See Richard Hendrickson's article in the June 1993 issue of Railmodel Journal for more details.

The gon is ACL or MEC IIRC, but can serve as a stand-in for other low-side gons (LV, SOU).  The devil, is of course, in the details, so, as usual, check photos before moving forward.


Ben Hom


Re: Santa Fe Caswell gondola question

Jared Harper
 

The IM Ga-2 model I have has a wood floor with the boards running the length of the car.  Isn't that unusual for car floors?

Jared Harper


---In STMFC@..., <atsfus@...> wrote :


On 6/5/2017 4:43 PM, Jared Harper harperandbrown@... [STMFC] wrote:
Neither source mentions anything about wood floors. 

    This from the Westerfield site from their description;

"solid floors were laid on top of the drop floors but the shafts were not removed."

    This would tend to say the floor was wood.  I doubt steel plate was welded in.  Need to find pictures!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Santa Fe Caswell gondola question

Jon Miller
 

On 6/5/2017 4:43 PM, Jared Harper harperandbrown@... [STMFC] wrote:
Neither source mentions anything about wood floors. 

    This from the Westerfield site from their description;

"solid floors were laid on top of the drop floors but the shafts were not removed."

    This would tend to say the floor was wood.  I doubt steel plate was welded in.  Need to find pictures!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Bowser Colgate Palmolive covered hopper

Ed Hawkins
 


On Jun 7, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Tom towazy@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

I just saw that Bowser produced an ACF 70 ton covered hopper with SHPX reporting marks lettered for Colgate Palmolive in the past. My dad worked his entire life for Colgate starting in the early 50s,only interrupted by his stint in Korea. I asked him if he ever remembered seeing any railroad cars lettered for Colgate during his career and he said he had no recollection of seeing any. He remembered rail cars being delivered by the "Penn" RR as he called it, PRR as the plant was in Jersey City,NJ,but recall seeing any with Colgate markings. I'm curious if there is a prototype for this car,or if it is at least a stand in type model,or is it entirely a foobie? Were there ever any Colgate Palmolive lettered cars riding the rails in any era? 

Tom,
Colgate-Palmolive-Peet leased 70 SHPX 1958 cu. ft. covered cars built by ACF from 2-48 to 1-52 in 4 groups. Given the company stencils applied to these cars, they were likely on long-term leases, probably 10 years.

In lot number sequence:
Lot 3238, 10 cars, SHPX 25418-25427 (2-48)
Lot 3406, 10 cars, SHPX 25380-25389 (9-49)
Lot 3535B, 25 cars, SHPX 25666-25690 (7-51)
Lot 3707, 35 cars, SHPX 25866-25900 (1-52)

Note the first two series were built out of chronological sequence. These cars were covered in Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Volume 27, an entire 113-volume on the subject of the ACF 70-ton, 1,958 cu. ft. covered hopper cars. Included were page-width photos of three ACF builder photos SHPX 25386, 25419, & 25673. I believe that the ACF builder photo from the final group was taken of SHPX 25869, however, this image wasn’t available to publish. 

The SHPX cars were also discussed & illustrated in my 6-part series on the subject published in Railmodel Journal during the early 1990s. The January 1992 issue focused on cars of the Shippers’ Car Line that included photos of SHPX 25386 & SHPX 25673.

The company web site indicates that the name became Colgate-Palmolive-Peet Co. in 1928. In 1953 the “Peet” was dropped.

Hope this helps.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins



Re: Kits are now for sale

joth1930s
 

I hope the group excuses me for not being on the eight-ball with the following information. Having researched (still a work in progress sorting the variations and many subseries reported in ORERs from the 1920s to the 1970s ) CPR’s 1,100, 1920s-built steel frame automobile cars for years now, I want to pass on some of my findings relevant to Yarmouth Model Works’ exquisite new offering.  

Between late 1923 through 1924, the Canadian Pacific built 600 cars to this design in two orders at the railway’s Angus Shops in Montreal. The 1923-built, 300-car, 297500-297799 series (E.O. 2051) and the 1924-built, 300-car, 297800-298099 series (E.O. 2094)  would continue to be listed separately in ensuing ORERs up until sometime in the late 1940s (my insight ends with the July 1947 ORER) . By the April 1951 ORER, the two series had been combined and listed as the single 297500-298099 series. As built, both series were identical, featuring an offset 10’-opening, Murphy X.L.A. roof, 5/5/5 inverted Murphy ends, deep fishbelly centersill, fishbelly sidesill, and arch bar trucks.  The car’s interior dimensions: Length- 40'6", Width - 8'6", Height- 10'0".

Let me take a moment here to emphasize differences between these cars and an earlier design of CPR steel frame automobile cars, which are often conflated. Between 1921 and 1922, 500 cars were ordered from Angus shops (85 cars built in 1921 [E.O. 1708] were subsequently combined with the 415 ordered in 1922 [E.O. 1954] into a single series 297000-297499). These 500 CPR auto cars featured a Hutchins Dry Lading roof, 5/5/7 (3-panel, top-to-bottom) Murphy ends, straight centersill, Andrews trucks and a distinctive stepped sidesill reinforcement.  These cars features nearly identical interior dimensions as those of the 1923-1924 production series, save the height measuring 10’1”.     

Now, back to the cars pertaining to the kit.

During the mid-1930s, hundreds of cars were withdrawn from the two 1923/24 production series, shopped with larger door openings and reassigned to two new subseries described below.  All of the remaining cars in the 297500-298099 series retained their 10’ door openings through at-least 1951, but no later than 1954 (my insight ends with 176 cars listed in the April 1951 ORER and does not pick up again until 1954). By the January 1954 ORER, the remaining cars were shopped with 13’-6’ openings and other updates and entered into yet another subseries (see 1950s 297700-297899 subseries).

296800-296899: This 100-car subseries was shopped in 1934 with a 12’ width opening. This required the removal of the second diagonal hat-brace to accommodate the new auxiliary door, which was now wider than the main door. There is no ORER or M.P. 14 data that indicate any other improvements during the remainder of the 1930s, but in later years select cars received brake and truck upgrades. In 1952, 81 of the remaining 97 cars were removed from the 296800 series, shopped and renumbered in the 297300-297399 series and re-built with diagonal panel roofs, steel running boards, A/B brakes (AJAX hand brake), and cast steel frame trucks (if not already improved). The installation of the diagonal panel roof resulted in increased interior height of 10’6”. The remaining cars retained their “as-built” Murphy XLA roofs and were assigned to the 40237-40250 series in 1956 (14 Cars listed in the Oct. 1956 ORER).

296300-296599: This 300-car subseries was shopped between 1936 and 1938 with 13’3” doors.  The July 1935 ORER recorded 498 cars remaining in the 1923/24 production series equipped with 10’ wide doors, which were becoming quite antiquated as automobile designs grew proportionally larger during the 1930s.  Photo evidence confirms that the auxiliary doors on cars with 13’-3” openings abutted the second vertical steel brace and no further because otherwise the auxiliary door would interfere with the grab irons.   

Canadian Pacific’s 1941 M.P. 14 lists 50 cars from this subseries as having been equipped with cast steel side frames with the other 250 cars presumably retaining their original arch bar trucks.  There is no ORER or M.P. 14 data that suggest any other improvements during this period, but in 1950, 200 cars were withdrawn from this series and shopped with diagonal panel roofs, steel running boards, A/B brakes and cast steel frame trucks and renumbered into the 299600-299799 series, leaving just 96 cars in the 296300 subseries. In 1952, 43 of the remaining 95 cars were shopped with the same improvements and entered into the 297400-297448 subseries. In 1956, the remaining cars in the subseries transitioned to the 4XXXX? Series (looking for photos of cars in the 40000-40047 series).

Finally, the last CPR series of cars that can be modelled is the short-lived 177-car 297700-297899 subseries, which was created in 1954 and for all intents and purposes, lasted a mere two years (only five remaining in 1956).  The 297700 series was drawn from the as-built 1923-1924 production series previously mentioned.  It’s also imperative to note that this series’ number range occupies part of the as-built 1923-1924 series’ number range, which by the January 1954 ORER had been abbreviated to 297500-297699 in order to make room for the new series. This series was shopped with a 13’-6” door openings, but according to the Jan.1954, Jan.1955 and Oct.1956 ORERs, this series maintained its as-built Murphy XLA roof, making it a candidate for this kit.

To summarize, here are the series that can be modelled (consistent with the unimproved Murphy XLA roof):   

CP 296800-296899 series with 12” wide door openings: 100 cars in 1934, 97 in 1951, 14 in 1954, and gone by 1956.

CP 296300-296599 series with 13’3” wide openings : 32 cars in 1936, 300 in 1938, 296 in 1944, 96 in 1951, 52 in 1954 and 2 in 1956.

CP 297700-297899 series with 13’6”openings: 177 cars in 1954, 5 in 1956 and gone by 1958.

CP  40237-40250 series, née 1934 296800-296899 series (above) with 12” door openings (15 cars): 14 cars in 1956, still 14 in 1962, 9 in 1964, 4 in 1968 and 2 in 1977.

 

Jonathan McConathy


Re: Ertl cars

Donald B. Valentine
 




---In STMFC@..., <cepropst@...> wrote :

A friend was in Omaha looking in antique stores...I don’t know why? He picked up three Ertl cars for five bucks each on my behalf. So now I own a box car, gondola and flat car. What to do with the box car’s a no brainer, but I don’t know much about the other two cars. I looked in my RMJ index and only saw reference to the box car. So, I have to ask - what are some prototypes for the gon and flat, or would someone like to buy them? I can bring them to St L.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

Hi Clark, 

    The gon is an excellent model of the Maine Central #17000-#17099 series gons.
To the best of my knowledge these were originally bought to carry copper ore from 
Blue Hill, Me. to a smelter in Long Island City, NY. In later years they were used to
transport chunk limestone for a quarry in Swanton, Vt. to paper mills in Maine. 
I have been told, and Bill Welch has nored, that the gons are also accurate for some 
ACL gons but the only ACL gons I've seen looked like some modifications were needed 
to the ends though IIRC they were minor. The Ertl gons are easy to find, and cheap to 
purchase, on eBay as long as you are not looking for the MEC one.

My best, Don Valentine
 


Re: Bowser Colgate Palmolive covered hopper

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Steve Johnson wrote:

One of the old Topps railroad trading cards  . . . “

Say what?  “railroad trading cards?”  That’s a new one on me.  When did Topps make these?

Schuyler


Re: Bowser Colgate Palmolive covered hopper

Douglas Harding
 

Company History states it was 1953 when they became the Colgate-Palmolive Company.

Doug Harding


Re: Bowser Colgate Palmolive covered hopper

Larry Smith
 

Big oops there

Larry