Date   

What Kind Of Car Is This?

thecitrusbelt@...
 

This photo is from the Barringer Library, probably pre-1940:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12293135473/in/dateposted/

 

Notice the freight car to the left. It appears to be a flat car with three vertical wooden tanks on it. But maybe it's something else?

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Help on tank colors - GATX 68508

Jim Hayes
 

I used the 8K acid tank.

Jim

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Jim

Which Tangent tank car frame did you use?

Tim O'Connor


I just matched a partially assembled Tangent tank car with a Red Caboose Undec 10K tank car kit. The Red Caboose tank is a perfect match to the Tangent frame. The bolster to bolster length is the same. In fact the truck screws on the Tangent will screw directly into the existing holes in the bottom of the Red Caboose tank.

The existing Red Caboose dome is 60". The dome on the CSC tank in the picture might be the same. The major item we still need is DECALS.

Jim



Re: YVRR layout video on YouTube...

Steve SANDIFER
 

Yes, please. I am a novice at such and need to build a depot!

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:29 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] YVRR layout video on YouTube...

 

 

The videographers who shot the layout video are looking for other related videos from me. I have been doing SketchUp/3D printing clinics for a couple of years now at regional and national NMRA conventions as well as RPM meets at Naperville and Cocoa Beach. Those clinics are designed to illustrate how to get started in using SketchUp and 3D printing. If there is enough interest, this subject will move up on their priority list…

Jack

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:13 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] YVRR layout video on YouTube...

I would like to see a video for others can get started in 3d train modeling jack you know how can you post a you tube video?

On Tuesday, June 13, 2017, gtws00@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Jack,

What an amazing layout. The Scenery is outstanding. I was impressed that all the Structures appear to actually be on foundations or timbers. I can say that for your modeling of freight cars and track work as well. Love the animations for the signals and water spout.

I have a question on 3D printing. Is Sketchup still available. I thought I heard the free version is gone?

Thanks for sharing

George Tpman

--

Thomas j Cataldo


Re: Help on tank colors - GATX 68508

Tim O'Connor
 

Jim

Which Tangent tank car frame did you use?

Tim O'Connor


I just matched a partially assembled Tangent tank car with a Red Caboose Undec 10K tank car kit. The Red Caboose tank is a perfect match to the Tangent frame. The bolster to bolster length is the same. In fact the truck screws on the Tangent will screw directly into the existing holes in the bottom of the Red Caboose tank.

The existing Red Caboose dome is 60". The dome on the CSC tank in the picture might be the same. The major item we still need is DECALS.

Jim


Re: YVRR layout video on YouTube...

Jack Burgess
 

The videographers who shot the layout video are looking for other related videos from me. I have been doing SketchUp/3D printing clinics for a couple of years now at regional and national NMRA conventions as well as RPM meets at Naperville and Cocoa Beach. Those clinics are designed to illustrate how to get started in using SketchUp and 3D printing. If there is enough interest, this subject will move up on their priority list…



Jack



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:13 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] YVRR layout video on YouTube...





I would like to see a video for others can get started in 3d train modeling jack you know how can you post a you tube video?





On Tuesday, June 13, 2017, gtws00@yahoo.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Jack,

What an amazing layout. The Scenery is outstanding. I was impressed that all the Structures appear to actually be on foundations or timbers. I can say that for your modeling of freight cars and track work as well. Love the animations for the signals and water spout.

I have a question on 3D printing. Is Sketchup still available. I thought I heard the free version is gone?



Thanks for sharing



George Tpman



--

Thomas j Cataldo











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Ratios

Tim O'Connor
 


That's one strategy. Another is to maintain an off-layout "stage" of extra
cars and figure out how to randomize the use of all of the cars, so you don't
have the same cars all the time on the layout.

Tim O'Connor




I had far too many freight cars when I finished building my layout.  I measured each siding, including the yard tracks and figured out how many forty-foot cars would fit onto those tracks.  Then I divided that number by two which gave me the maximum number of cars that could be on the layout at any time.  This prevents gridlock and makes plenty of room to actually operate the layout.  After that I looked at the industries on the layout to determine what kind of freight cars I needed to service those industries.  I immediately eliminated refrigerator cars because there was no place to deliver them.  I have a coal mine that can handle nine cars so I needed eighteen hopper cars divided between loads and empties.  Flat cars are not really needed either so I have only a couple.  The time frame is 1953 so no cars have build or reweigh dates later than 1953.  The layout is set in northwestern Pennsylvania so the emphasis is on eastern roads although, because there is a lumber yard, a few western and Canadian boxcars are occasionally used for lumber traffic.  I still have too many cars and will sell off some more sooner or later.  No point in having them sit on boxes on shelves when someone else might enjoy having them.  Hugh t Guillaume


Re: YVRR layout video on YouTube...

Jack Burgess
 

Thanks George.



No, the free version of SketchUp in still available. But they don’t make it easy to find it. Go to my website at



www.yosemitevalleyrr.com



and click on Clinics. My clinic handout on that link provides detailed information on how to download the free version plus all of the notes from my SketchUp/3D printing clinics. If you have any questions, let me know.



Jack



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:05 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: YVRR layout video on YouTube...





Jack,

What an amazing layout. The Scenery is outstanding. I was impressed that all the Structures appear to actually be on foundations or timbers. I can say that for your modeling of freight cars and track work as well. Love the animations for the signals and water spout.

I have a question on 3D printing. Is Sketchup still available. I thought I heard the free version is gone?



Thanks for sharing



George Tpman










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: YVRR layout video on YouTube...

tjcataldo
 

I would like to see a video for others can get started  in 3d train modeling jack you know how can you post a you tube video?



On Tuesday, June 13, 2017, gtws00@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Jack, 

What an amazing layout. The Scenery is outstanding. I was impressed that all the Structures appear to actually be on foundations or timbers. I can say that for your modeling of freight cars and track work as well. Love the animations for the signals and water spout. 
I have a question on 3D printing. Is Sketchup still available. I thought I heard the free version is gone?

Thanks for sharing 

George Tpman



--
Thomas  j Cataldo


Re: YVRR layout video on YouTube...

gtws00
 

Jack, 
What an amazing layout. The Scenery is outstanding. I was impressed that all the Structures appear to actually be on foundations or timbers. I can say that for your modeling of freight cars and track work as well. Love the animations for the signals and water spout. 
I have a question on 3D printing. Is Sketchup still available. I thought I heard the free version is gone?

Thanks for sharing 

George Tpman


Re: Ratios

 

I had far too many freight cars when I finished building my layout.  I measured each siding, including the yard tracks and figured out how many forty-foot cars would fit onto those tracks.  Then I divided that number by two which gave me the maximum number of cars that could be on the layout at any time.  This prevents gridlock and makes plenty of room to actually operate the layout.  After that I looked at the industries on the layout to determine what kind of freight cars I needed to service those industries.  I immediately eliminated refrigerator cars because there was no place to deliver them.  I have a coal mine that can handle nine cars so I needed eighteen hopper cars divided between loads and empties.  Flat cars are not really needed either so I have only a couple.  The time frame is 1953 so no cars have build or reweigh dates later than 1953.  The layout is set in northwestern Pennsylvania so the emphasis is on eastern roads although, because there is a lumber yard, a few western and Canadian boxcars are occasionally used for lumber traffic.  I still have too many cars and will sell off some more sooner or later.  No point in having them sit on boxes on shelves when someone else might enjoy having them.  Hugh t Guillaume


Re: Ratios

Aley, Jeff A
 

Armand,

 

                Unless I am mistaken, you have a very nice collection of Rutland wheel reports / conductor’s books.  So perhaps your problem is really one of “how do I selectively compress my fleet”?

 

                Others have written about how to select the ROADNAMES for a fleet, and I think you should also have no problem selecting the ratio of reefers to tank cars, etc.

 

                The problem gets a lot more complicated when you want to maintain a ratio of single-sheathed boxcars vs double-sheathed vs steel.  How many of the steel cars are PS-1’s vs X29 “clones”?  In this case, I personally would err on the side of “what is easily modeled”.  If I need a single Maine Central boxcar, I’m going to see which of their cars is most easily modeled, which may not be their most common car.

 

                I also happen to know that Armand is a much better modeler than I am, so perhaps he’ll pick the most obscure MEC boxcar, just for the challenge of scratchbuilding it.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 7:37 AM
To: stmfc@...
Subject: [STMFC] Ratios

 

 

I have had a major problem dealing with ratios .Considering the number of variables  that affect a relatively accurate of freight car distribution  i.e. Date ; Region ; Railroad.I have a relatively large roster  ,but have been troubled that I didn't have an  accurate distribution ,by car  type i.e wood vs steel  ,Reefer vs Box car  etcI ,etc ,etc .I would like to hear from others on how they deal with prototype practices ..Armand Premo


Re: Ratios

O Fenton Wells
 

Brian you da man


On Jun 13, 2017, at 1:32 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Exactly, Tony. I try to be correct, but sometimes you see something and just have to have it.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@...> on behalf of STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 12:19 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ratios

BRIAN EHNI wrote:

It’s my railroad.

Brian cites the familiar "Rule No. 1" employed by many modelers. But as Tony Koester often says, if you hide behind Rule No. 1 all the time, you are confessing that you aren't really trying to model anything specific. That's a perfectly fine hobby, but it's not modeling real railroading. I think if you use the context right (as I believe Brian does), Rule No. 1 only says "I get to choose my prototype and era," but I would say, "beware of using Rule No. 1 for everything."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history




Barringer Library - Freight Car Photos

Andy Laurent
 

The Barringer Library has posted several interesting steam era freight car ACF builder photos in the past week, including ATMX 1000-series helium cars under construction in 1955, USN 100 twin hopper from Lot 3425 in 1949, and RDG boxcars from Lot 3469.  From this link you can browse the images:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/35034446102/in/photostream/

Andy L.
Cedar Rapids, IA



Re: Ratios

Tony Thompson
 

     Excellent summaries by Bruce Smith and by Nelson Moyer. I know people who are just starting to plan get overwhelmed by the variety of informations sources, but we really do know a great deal about how to answer Armand's questions.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Ratios

 

Exactly, Tony. I try to be correct, but sometimes you see something and just have to have it.





Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni



From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 12:19 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ratios





BRIAN EHNI wrote:





It’s my railroad.



Brian cites the familiar "Rule No. 1" employed by many modelers. But as Tony Koester often says, if you hide behind Rule No. 1 all the time, you are confessing that you aren't really trying to model anything specific. That's a perfectly fine hobby, but it's not modeling real railroading. I think if you use the context right (as I believe Brian does), Rule No. 1 only says "I get to choose my prototype and era," but I would say, "beware of using Rule No. 1 for everything."



Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com

Publishers of books on railroad history













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Ratios

Tony Thompson
 

BRIAN EHNI wrote:

 
It’s my railroad.

      Brian cites the familiar "Rule No. 1" employed by many modelers. But as Tony Koester often says, if you hide behind Rule No. 1 all the time, you are confessing that you aren't really trying to model anything specific. That's a perfectly fine hobby, but it's not modeling real railroading. I think if you use the context right (as I believe Brian does), Rule No. 1 only says "I get to choose my prototype and era," but I would say, "beware of using Rule No. 1 for everything."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: [Non-DoD Source] Ratios

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Armand;

I did a large amount of research before coming up with my late PRR in the Monongahela River Valley car fleet. I looked over hundreds of photos, RR-generated class and type numbers, and what train lists exist, so I knew what yards hosted what types of cars, what RRs and car types were seen, and what industries they were probably serving. I then generated a large list of RRs I had seen represented on the PRR in photos of the area, established a maximum (for me) fleet size (500-600 cars), and worked backward to cover PRR vs non-PRR car numbers by time period (this is available, and varies by year); this followed by "presence on the PRR" in volume of cars, then by type and class (by use of ORERs). The presence and number of cars of various RRs and car types really does vary by yard and train, and if you look long enough you can spot the trains and even yards by what appears, since it is so dependent on industries served and such.

If you are still interested, I will send you the "living" document I have developed. It could still be a work in progress if I find significant numbers of additional photos.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 10:37 AM
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [STMFC] Ratios



I have had a major problem dealing with ratios .Considering the number of variables that affect a relatively accurate of freight car distribution i.e. Date ; Region ; Railroad.I have a relatively large roster ,but have been troubled that I didn't have an accurate distribution ,by car type i.e wood vs steel ,Reefer vs Box car etcI ,etc ,etc .I would like to hear from others on how they deal with prototype practices ..Armand Premo


Re: Ratios

Bruce Smith
 

Armand,

What follows is the approach I am using for modeling June 1944 (that creates some important caveats due to the war and I note that they may make my decisions easier!)

1) First determine the traffic on your section of railroad.  How many trains will you model?  What are the proportions of types of trains/cars (e.g. minerals, reefers, merchandise, petroleum, etc…)  Combined with train length, this will determine the proportion and number of car types needed (hopper, gondola, reefer, tank, box, flat, helium, pickles, etc…).  For a nice fleet, I would think at least double the number of cars for the number of trains you have would be a good place to start. This is often the most difficult data to find.

2) Second, identify the % home road cars.  On the PRR, that sticks pretty darn close to 50% overall over many many years. However, this is an average.  If you split cars out by type, it is likely that 75% of hoppers, 50% of gons and 25% of boxcars on the PRR were PRR, but there is no official reporting to support this. Apply these percentages to the total for each car type determined in #1
caveat - this includes stored serviceable cars, so the actual number of cars working may be less, depending on the economy.  For me, with a war on, there are almost no stored cars

3) Model the home road fleet on the basis of the actual home road fleet.  Modeling the home fleet based on the ORER will automatically compensate for construction and class.
caveat - this may be adjusted by assigned service cars.  In other words, if a large group of cars was in assigned service in or through the area you model, they may be disproportionally over represented.  Likewise if the assigned service cars don’t cross your rails on the prototype, they may be disproportionately under represented.

4) Model the foreign box cars and flat cars based on the national fleet composition, minus your home road fleet. To that end, the bigger the fleet, the more it matters.  If you identify the common cars in the big fleets for the date(s) you are modeling, that will automatically tend to adjust your ratios to represent the reality that was out there. That can be a lot of legwork, but much of that information is now in the archives of this list. 
caveat - In my own experience for 1944, it would appear that the bigger fleets were biased to more modern construction (steel).  As a consequence, my acquisition pattern for smaller fleets tends to emphasize older cars (often what that fleet consisted of anyway) with composite (wood siding, steel underframe ands structure) construction. We also have had a number of folks post on the subject of car construction types as portions of the fleet over the years.  Those approximations can be used to fill in the remainder of your modeled fleet with cars that approximate the correct ratio. This is especially true with boxcars.

5) Model the foreign road gondolas based on regional fleets with minor representation from outside the region.  So, if you’re in the middle Atlantic modeling the B&O, expect to model a lot of PRR and NYC gons.  If you model AT&SF, you should still have some PRR and NYC gons, but fewer, with more SP and UP gons than the B&O modeler.

6) Model the foreign road hoppers based on interchange partners and known mineral traffic patterns. 
caveat - This matters tremendously on location.  For example I was told that C&O hoppers “never” ran on the PRR.  Well, that’s pretty true for the area I model, but solid trains of them ran on Lines West PRR!

7) Reefers… ah reefers… Here is where I get lucky ;) I model the national fleet, because during WWII, the car service rules were suspended for reefers.  If you aren’t modeling that period, there are lots if issues.  These include location and traffic patterns.  If you model a “loading” railroad, then the vast majority of cars should be “home road” (ATSF = SFRD, UP/SP = PFE, etc…). The number and uses are tempered by season.  If you model a “transit” road, the numbers are modified as to the connections of that road.  If you model a “destination" road, the numbers become closer to the national fleet numbers. So determine what would be the common roads of reefers on your section of railroad and then model from the fleet.

8) Tank cars… like reefers, I get to model a larger fleet, but still need to stick primarily to cars assigned east of the plains.  In times other than WWI, cars were typically in something akin to assigned service, so you need to look at the refinery and dealerships associated with your railroad and model appropriately.

9) Special trains.  I want to model the Sunday morning high and wide train on the Columbia and Port Deposit branch of the PRR.  This will require that I have a disproportionate number of special duty flat cars.

Finally, it is critically important to realize that individual trains do not have to reflect the fleet.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jun 13, 2017, at 9:37 AM, Armand Premo arm.p.prem@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



I have had a major problem dealing with ratios .Considering the number of variables  that affect a relatively accurate of freight car distribution  i.e. Date ; Region ; Railroad.I have a relatively large roster  ,but have been troubled that I didn't have an  accurate distribution ,by car  type i.e wood vs steel  ,Reefer vs Box car  etcI ,etc ,etc .I would like to hear from others on how they deal with prototype practices ..Armand Premo




Re: Ratios

Nelson Moyer
 

I used the 1953 ORER for my home road cars since I model that year. After looking at the totals, I moved the decimal point to the left until I achieved a reasonable number of each car type. This eliminated cars with low numbers on the ORER. I used the national car fleet numbers for other cars, adjusted for geographical region and nature of traffic for the CB&Q, e.g. products of agriculture, products of mines, livestock and products of animals, products of forests, etc. The CB&Q ran a lot of grain in box cars, coal in gondolas, and a lot of livestock and meat traffic, so I have a disproportionate number of boxcars, gondolas, meat reefers, and stock cars to model specific trains. I use the national pool numbers for making up general merchandise trains. I choose meat reefers based upon the slaughter houses served by the Q, plus bridge traffic. Stock cars favor Hill Lines, i.e. GN and NP in addition to CB&Q. Same approach for produce reefers, but I model Fall 1953, so I consider seasonal produce shipments based upon the chart prepared by Tony Thompson. All this is just a starter if you really want to be protypical.

Nelson Moyer

On Jun 13, 2017, at 10:13 AM, thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

You mentioned "date". If you establish a date, or at least a narrow range of years for your railroad you can eliminate any cars that did not exist before that time. Beyond that others on this list more knowledgeable than I will explain how to use the railroad modeled, the region, industries modeled, wheel reports, etc. to hone in on a realistic freight car fleet.


Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Ratios

Paul Doggett <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

Bill 

I am in your camp with this as long as the cars fall into my time period 50 to 53 that is fine if outside braced or double sheathed wooden boxcars even better i have to many wooden cars but I like the they have more character than steel sided cars. Just my very humble opinion.

On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 at 16:31, fgexbill@... [STMFC]
wrote:
 

I am more interested in the evolution and design of freight cars, especially boxcars, and the variations as designs and thinking evolved. Because of this I have way too many GN, ATSF, CB&Q, and NP models built and kits to be built even though I am a "Ya'll" modeler. Even though steel cars were arguably more standard, there was still great variation in sill design, door sizes/types, ends, etc. that are interesting to represent. I don't think I have ever given "prototype practices" much thought. I just do what interests me.


Bill Welch


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