Date   

Another Example Of A Gasoline Station With Direct Railroad Deliveries

thecitrusbelt@...
 

According to the Spring 2013 issue of the Headend, The Journal of the New York Museum of Transportation, Herbert H. Morse, was an traveling auditor with an oil company in Rochester, New York. In 1926 Mr. Morse became a ratailer and opened the first of three service stations he would eventually own in Rochester.

 

The Morse station didn’t align with any national brand at first, and gasoline was purchased in bulk. Fuel was delivered by tank cars that the New York Central spotted on an adjacent siding until pipelines were constructed in the post-World War II era.

 

http://www.nymtmuseum.org/headends/13spring/car_on_lift.jpg

 

Caption: "The open-air service area at Smith Street was adjacent to the railroad siding where gasoline was delivered by tank car."

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

 


Re: PRR Keystones ??

Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hello All,

Was there a keystone herald prior to the circle keystone version of 1/30?

Thanks & Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Jun 18, 2017, at 2:33 PM, 'Shoben, Edward J' ejshoben@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


I am far from a PRR guru, but I do have access to Ben Hom’s description of lettering for X29 boxcars.  I don’t know of my own knowledge, but I would be very surprised if Ben were in error.  His listing:

 

Circle K 1/30

 

SK1a       2/54  “Calendar style” numerals

 

SK1b      8/54  Serif-style numerals

 

SK2a     11/54  Serif style PRR and numerals

 

SK2b     11/57  Plain style PRR and numerals

 

PK            6/60

 

Where SK is Shadow Keystone and PK is Plain Keystone, and the dates given are the inaugural dates of each scheme.  Hope this helps.  –Ed Shoben

 

 




Re: Tony's Clinic yesterday at BAPM

Douglas Harding
 

I appreciate Clark’s comment related to the M&StL. I model the M&StL’s mainline in Iowa and am now relieved that I don’t need that many cars lettered for the M&StL. Now the M&StL had sizable cement and coal traffic, and thus hoppers and gons. But during the era of my interest, 1949, most of the coal traffic was central Illinois to Peoria. Very little coal traffic was on the mainline in Iowa. And most of the cement traffic from Mason City went north to Minnesota, again not on the section of track I model. So I don’t need a large number of M&StL hoppers or gons. That is an example of how one needs to know not just their railroad, but the section you plan to model and the type of traffic it carried in your chosen era.

 

I believe this thread started with mention of the need for 50-60% home road cars. If I recall correctly, that number goes back to some Model Railroader (Kalmback Pub) articles from the 50s, which was more modeler wants and speculation, not accurate prototype study of traffic patterns. When I came into the hobby that %figure was still being cited by many modelers, but not rail historians. Since then it has been since displaced by the Gilbert-Nelson studies of prototype patterns, and data such as Clark cited.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Bulkhead Gondola?

thecitrusbelt@...
 

Another reversed print from the Barriger Library:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12348389264/in/dateposted/

 

This Minneapolis & St. Louis gondola car appears to have bulkheads installed. Perhaps this was a measure to keep the car from being overloaded?

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: I will call your attention to the poultry car at the extreme right

Alexander Schneider Jr
 

If you have Photoshop it takes one click to “flip horizontally”. Another click can straighten it as well.

 

Alex Schneider

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 12:23 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] I will call your attention to the poultry car at the extreme right

 




Can say, Been there.

Hired an intern once to scan photo negatives to digitize case files.

Could not tell the difference between the glossy side and

the dull side of negative. Or maybe did not bother. Was not realized

until a case went to court. Since the accident photo was reversed, it

showed the defendant on the right (correct) side of the road. 

Talk about embarrassment. 





Re: Tony's Clinic yesterday at BAPM

Clark Propst
 

Jim B wrote:
”I have heard many, many times and from many different guys
that the number of home road cars, on any RR and on any one
day, is usually between 40% and 60% of the total cars on the
RR that day. Do you like those numbers for our layouts?”
 
I’ve studied M&StL agents records and train lists from the 40s and 50s. You’re lucky to find any home road cars. I recently read an employee newsletter from the late 50s mentioning a turndown in national business where they had a high percentage of home road cars (over 50%? can’t remember the number). It stated normal was 6-7%! This was a bridge route. I need to re-read to verify those numbers, but I was shocked at how low it was.
 
In the last train records I transcribed the biggest percentage of box cars was NYC followed not far back by UTLX tank cars.
 
As for my layout – I have to completely revamp my roster from my last layout dealing with an industrial town to my now rural branchline. As an example - I had to sell off over a dozen Armour reefers that were for a packing plant on my old layout and replace them with a small variety of reefers for two canneries on the branch. Which is good because I hate making more than one of anything  ; ))
 
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Gilbert-Nelson

Steve SANDIFER
 

Here are the contents of a conductor record book from 1930-31 on the ATSF. When you remove the tank cars, the ATSF cars are way in the majority. Of course this is just one glimpse.

http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/Sandifer/Frt/index.htm

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 5:30 PM
To: Armand Premo
Cc: Era Freight Car List Steam
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Gilbert-Nelson

 

 

Armand Premo wrote:



Tony , Many members of this list are not aware of the study It may be a good time to revisit the study . I for one would like to have another look at it .Too bad the study did not include the two large Canadian roads . 

 

    For a Gilbert-Nelson summary, about which I have written repeatedly in my blog, I might suggest you read a post from a few years ago. Here is a link:

 

 

I also looked at some conductor's records for the SP Coast Division, which I model, and found pretty good compliance with the Gilbert-Nelson model. You can readily find such posts in my blog by using the search box at the upper right of each post.

    The reason for omitting the Canadian rods is simple. Yes, they had huge fleets, but all data I have seen indicates that no more than 10 percent of those fleets would be in the U.S. at any one time. They thus fall to rather small proportions of the national fleet in the U.S. Of course a road with border connections might be different, but for the NATIONAL picture, Canadian cars were minor players.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 

 

 


Re: Gilbert-Nelson

Tony Thompson
 

Armand Premo wrote:

Tony , Many members of this list are not aware of the study It may be a good time to revisit the study . I for one would like to have another look at it .Too bad the study did not include the two large Canadian roads . 

    For a Gilbert-Nelson summary, about which I have written repeatedly in my blog, I might suggest you read a post from a few years ago. Here is a link:


I also looked at some conductor's records for the SP Coast Division, which I model, and found pretty good compliance with the Gilbert-Nelson model. You can readily find such posts in my blog by using the search box at the upper right of each post.
    The reason for omitting the Canadian rods is simple. Yes, they had huge fleets, but all data I have seen indicates that no more than 10 percent of those fleets would be in the U.S. at any one time. They thus fall to rather small proportions of the national fleet in the U.S. Of course a road with border connections might be different, but for the NATIONAL picture, Canadian cars were minor players.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Tony's Clinic yesterday at BAPM

Jim Betz
 

Tony,

  Thanks for your answers.                                                             - Jim B.


Re: Tank Car Loading...Maybe

Tony Thompson
 

       We know that a number of states used to prohibit bottom unloading, others permitted it. So as a modeler, you need to find out what the rules were for the state you model. California did permit bottom unloading and many photos are consistent with that. A number of Midwestern states required top unloading and photos support that.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Tony's Clinic yesterday at BAPM

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Betz wrote:

 

  The parts I didn't hear from you yesterday were comments about how those national averages (percentages) of the freight car fleet should be modified due to regional aspects (such as a West Coast theme).  Would you expand on that a bit here please?


        If you follow Gilber-Nelson, as I do and as I emphasized in the talk, these NATIONAL relations ARE regional. No adjustments.

  I have heard many, many times and from many different guys that the number of home road cars, on any RR and on any one  day, is usually between 40% and 60% of the total cars on the  RR that day.  Do you like those numbers for our layouts?

        Yeah, I have heard lots of numbers thrown about too. But if you look at numbers, for example with SP, you will find home-road numbers not above a third and in some trains down to a fourth of the total. Of course you can choose any percentage that suits you, but most roads of any size with reasonable traffic balance will NOT be anywhere like 60 percent, when you look at actual data. Remember that Gilbert-Nelson relates to bridge-route and through traffic, obviously not for branches or small regional railroads.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Ratios

A&Y Dave in MD
 

It's my railroad, and I chose that to be the Atlantic & Yadkin in 1934. I don't have a wheel report for the A&Y so I got the next best thing--nearly a year of wheel reports from my shortline's owning railroad on the division that shares a yard and interchanges most with the line I model.

I recently took those reports and selected any road name contributing more than 50 car instances (i.e., recorded on a train) out of the 7000 instances recorded.  That gave me about 20 roads with local names dominating and most big regional or national fleets also represented.

Then I reduced the numbers proportionally to fit my expected layout capacity of 250 revenue cars. I can scale that up or down as needed.

I now have that list of cars as my buying and building list.  Those railroads without enough in the wheel reports to "make the cut" (pun intended) can be found in the miscellaneous cars, so long as there is no more than two at one time on the layout. This is my wiggle room for that must have kit.

Interestingly, I need about 100 home road box cars in the 250 cars. A function of time and geography, but clearly not unprototypical.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone


Re: PRR Keystones ??

Ed Shoben
 

I am far from a PRR guru, but I do have access to Ben Hom’s description of lettering for X29 boxcars.  I don’t know of my own knowledge, but I would be very surprised if Ben were in error.  His listing:

 

Circle K 1/30

 

SK1a       2/54  “Calendar style” numerals

 

SK1b      8/54  Serif-style numerals

 

SK2a     11/54  Serif style PRR and numerals

 

SK2b     11/57  Plain style PRR and numerals

 

PK            6/60

 

Where SK is Shadow Keystone and PK is Plain Keystone, and the dates given are the inaugural dates of each scheme.  Hope this helps.  –Ed Shoben

 

 


Re: PRR Keystones ??

SUVCWORR@...
 

The Shadow Keystone first appeared on the X48 (PS-1 cushion underframe) in January 1954.  Application to repaints and subsequent construction began in late July 1954.  The plain keystone appeared circa 1962.  The shadow and circle keystones could be found on cars into the Penn Central era.

Rich Orr


Re: Tank Car Loading...Maybe

Steve SANDIFER
 

Exactly the same for a dealer in Eureka Kansas.

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 1:45 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Tank Car Loading...Maybe

 

 

This is the way all the bulk oil plants worked on Santa Fe's Alma branch in Kansas.  The storage tanks and warehouses were along the main and contained the pump.  A pipe went from this facility under the track over to a penstock along the house track.  A pipe on the penstock could go down into the dome on the tank car and the contents could be pumped out.

 

Jared Harper

Athens, GA



---In STMFC@..., <andy.laurent@...> wrote :

It certainly appears that the Sinclair bulk distributor on the left ran a pipe under the main line to access the spur on the other side of the tracks to unload petroleum products.  The Ahnapee & Western Rwy (my prototype of choice) had a similar arrangement at Forestville, Wisconsin that ran under a city street and the railroad mainline.  The town can be seen here: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4ubNstM6-eg/UI1UQfCKdEI/AAAAAAAACiU/9m0rcBgsGqo/s1600/Forestville+Hi+Res.jpg with the petroleum dealer in question at the lower right corner of the lake, with white tanks.  The unloading rack was near the southern of the three buildings to the right.

Top unloading of petroleum products from tank cars was fairly common in Wisconsin during the steam era.

Andy Laurent
Iowa City, IA


Re: Ratios

Jim Betz
 

Bruce,

  You are correct - I did miss this post.  My "excuse" is that I was at an
Op session that day and so my fingers were poised inordinately above
the delete key when I finally got home and was trying to catch up.

  Your methods seem fine to me.

                                   ****

  At some point we all have to decider - for ourselves - about how
much "prototypical accuracy" we are going to do (and not do).  I
freely admit that I'm more prone than many would consider to be
"best" (much less "required") with respect to how often I will
apply the "It's my RR." rule ... but I still strive to achieve an
overall look and feel that says "this is an actual (or possible) 
real RR some date in the transition".  I am quite firm about "no
era transgressions" and I'm highly unlikely to run a car just
because I like it ... but if I have a train with 5 PM gondolas
on the layout one run ... I don't consider that to be a huge
error.  ;-)
                                                                          - Jim B.


Re: Tank Car Loading...Maybe

Jared Harper
 

This is the way all the bulk oil plants worked on Santa Fe's Alma branch in Kansas.  The storage tanks and warehouses were along the main and contained the pump.  A pipe went from this facility under the track over to a penstock along the house track.  A pipe on the penstock could go down into the dome on the tank car and the contents could be pumped out.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


---In STMFC@..., <andy.laurent@...> wrote :

It certainly appears that the Sinclair bulk distributor on the left ran a pipe under the main line to access the spur on the other side of the tracks to unload petroleum products.  The Ahnapee & Western Rwy (my prototype of choice) had a similar arrangement at Forestville, Wisconsin that ran under a city street and the railroad mainline.  The town can be seen here: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4ubNstM6-eg/UI1UQfCKdEI/AAAAAAAACiU/9m0rcBgsGqo/s1600/Forestville+Hi+Res.jpg with the petroleum dealer in question at the lower right corner of the lake, with white tanks.  The unloading rack was near the southern of the three buildings to the right.

Top unloading of petroleum products from tank cars was fairly common in Wisconsin during the steam era.

Andy Laurent
Iowa City, IA


Re: Barringer Library - Freight Car Photos - What is this car? PSPX #20001

Ed Hawkins
 


On Jun 18, 2017, at 2:15 PM, 'Steven D Johnson' tenncentralrwy@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Found these photos of PSPX #20001 not far from the helium car photos:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/35124272745/in/photostream/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/35084812466/in/photostream/

 

Anyone have any information on this car?


Steve,
The ACF lot list for lot 639 denotes PSPX 20001 as being a 40-ton multi-unit tank car that holds 30 cylindrical containers. In most cases the M-U tank cars were for transporting chlorine containers, however, the design of PSPX 20001 is different than most M-U cars of this type and may have been used to transport cylinders of liquified petroleum gas or anhydrous ammonia. Perhaps others on the list will know.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: What are these extra wide and tall clearance items (wheels showing but no couplers) #2

Robert J. Amsler, Jr.
 

I model the MP.  These are the ramps that go into the river for the ferry to dock against.  As the river rises or lowers the cars are moved up or down the rail so the top which carries track still meets the ferry.

 

MP had a number of theses around St. Louis and down the state.  There was another in Saint Genevieve, Missouri that transferred MP and Missouri-Illinois cars.  It had a yard and small round house.  The moveable ramp on the Illinois side was still there a few years ago.

 

Bob Amsler

St. Louis, Missouri

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 9:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: What are these extra wide and tall clearance items (wheels showing but no couplers) #2

 

 

Gary,

I wonder if this is a moveable ramp for ferry loading on the Mississippi. Here's a comment that was left on the first image.

Image is backwards - needs to be flipped. TRRA - Wiggins Ferry - East St. Louis Connecting Rwy. ferry slip at the East St. Louis Riverfront along Front Street between the Eads Bridge and Municipal Bridge. Looking northeast towards the GM&O(M&O) Freight House and Continental Grain Elevators. This is the area now occupied by what was the Peabody Coal Dock. John P. Kohlberg

 

Instead of a float bridge, maybe they used these moveable ramps for loading. When the river runs strong, the ramps can be pulled from the water. I don't think a float bridge has that option.

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

 

On June 18, 2017 at 8:01 AM "'gary laakso' vasa0vasa@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


This photo is out of sequence if its related to the one below, but it appears to be a ramp?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12329473555/in/album-72157640556301914/   

 

Gary “still perplexed” Laakso

south of Mike Brock

 

From: gary laakso [mailto:vasa0vasa@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 9:52 AM
To: 'STMFC@...' <STMFC@...>
Subject: What are these extra wide and tall clearance items (wheels showing but no couplers)

 

These are interesting pieces of rolling stock on adjoining tracks:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12329957324/in/album-72157640556301914/ 

 

I have no clue what they are!

 

Gary Laakso

south of Mike Brock

 

 

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX


Re: Tank Car Loading...Maybe

Andy Laurent
 

It certainly appears that the Sinclair bulk distributor on the left ran a pipe under the main line to access the spur on the other side of the tracks to unload petroleum products.  The Ahnapee & Western Rwy (my prototype of choice) had a similar arrangement at Forestville, Wisconsin that ran under a city street and the railroad mainline.  The town can be seen here: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4ubNstM6-eg/UI1UQfCKdEI/AAAAAAAACiU/9m0rcBgsGqo/s1600/Forestville+Hi+Res.jpg with the petroleum dealer in question at the lower right corner of the lake, with white tanks.  The unloading rack was near the southern of the three buildings to the right.

Top unloading of petroleum products from tank cars was fairly common in Wisconsin during the steam era.

Andy Laurent
Iowa City, IA

43141 - 43160 of 193481